A tank just isn't a tank in this game

[Wavicle]

11 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Did the concept of a "Trinity" even exist when CoH was released? Should a game be beholden to a concept it predates? It's certainly not from D&D, whose three original classes were the Cleric, the Fighting Man, and the Magic User. 

 

It did, although it was different.

The version of the trinity that existed at that time was Tank, Healer, Controller. That was from (someone correct me if I'm wrong) Everquest.

 

World of Warcraft modified that to what we NOW think of as the trinity of Tank, Healer, Damage.

[kelika2]

Its issue 27.something

jumping into a mob and taunting only went away in like issue 6

 

its time to let go

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Its issue 27.something

jumping into a mob and taunting only went away in like issue 6

 

its time to let go

 

well, Taunt is still useful if you lack AoEs or Ranged abilities, but yea, generally.

[kelika2]

Just now, Wavicle said:

 

well, Taunt is still useful if you lack AoEs or Ranged abilities, but yea, generally.

taunt has a -75% range debuff

and most enemies with a ranged have an 80ft range

i cant math right now because reasons but melee range is 7ft

 

taunt for my 3 whole tanks has been a level 47/49 kinda thing

[Ohsirus]

The game certainly did shift from the Trinity model into something that reminds me of Champions Online (when I played). No AT is really required anymore as everyone can build out a toon to plug whatever holes they may have.  So many toons run 54 +8 solo now there's hardly any reason to wait for a tank as there is no challenge and teams just blow through content now.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

taunt has a -75% range debuff

and most enemies with a ranged have an 80ft range

i cant math right now because reasons but melee range is 7ft

 

taunt for my 3 whole tanks has been a level 47/49 kinda thing

Oh, yes, that’s true, but what I meant was if you ARE trying to play as Meat Shield, then having ranged Taunt at lower levels can be helpful. YMMV.

[ZemX]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Oh, yes, that’s true, but what I meant was if you ARE trying to play as Meat Shield, then having ranged Taunt at lower levels can be helpful. YMMV.

 

I see a lot of Tank builds with Taunt dead last and I can only assume they are meant to be 50-only endgame builds.  Taunt is a HUGE help if you're actually playing the game while leveling instead of sitting at a door in a farm.  Not that you can't get by without it.  It's just very handy when you're standing in a group you have controlled and need to pull something else into it or off of someone else.  You don't have to go smack it yourself or worry about a ranged attack missing when another hit might flatten a squishy.

 

Just one more thing that goes away when nobody is "squishy" though.  That's the state of endgame CoH pretty much.  You don't need anything but damage and more damage.  Why anybody plays the high end game is beyond me.  I can only find "real" CoH myself on teams running max. difficult below level 45 and usually without everyone on the team being fully IOed yet.

[SmalltalkJava]

A tank in COH is so much more than the limited concept of tanks from other games.    Other games should be ashamed of their simplified concept.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

It’s not about wanting trinity play, I don’t want trinity play. I just want fights to last longer than 10 seconds and I want powers that don’t do damage to be valuable. I still want the same “everyone’s useful, no one’s required” style of balance that we currently have.

 

Don't know what to tell you other than stop farming Council maps.  Powers that don't do damage are still very valuable here.  

[Erratic1]

46 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I remember the Tank/Blaster and Brute/Corruptor duos, which was a large part of my Live experience, but nothing along the lines of a Trinity. 

 

The game enabled Trinity style play from the get go, and people coming from elsewhere certainly were willing to lean into it.

 

Tankers, other than Fire, were not known for their damage, a large enough group would want healing, and the way you end fights is damage. And in recollection, there was plenty of love for Empathy Defenders (along with people declaring themselves loudly to be such) and not  so much love for  Force Field Defenders. Heck, if  Kinetics didn't have Fulcrum Shift and Speed Boost I suspect they would also have been a lot less popular with their healing emanating from foes and requiring them to hit for the heal to be triggered.

 

But people have also been finding ways to get by outside of the Trinity since the start too.

[lemming]

23 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 Heck, if  Kinetics didn't have Fulcrum Shift and Speed Boost I suspect they would also have been a lot less popular with their healing emanating from foes and requiring them to hit for the heal to be triggered.

Somewhere in the ancient past, Empathy was king and if you were a Kinetic, you were looked down on and sometimes wouldn't be picked up for a team.

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

The game enabled Trinity style play from the get go, and people coming from elsewhere certainly were willing to lean into it.

 

"Enabled" isn't the same as required or even encouraged.  As loud as people were declaring themselves to be healers or "looking for healers" in game, there were equally loud people telling them they didn't need a healer.  That goes all the way back.

 

28 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Don't know what to tell you other than stop farming Council maps. 

 

It's not quite THAT simple to find a challenge for a Level 50 Incarnate these days.  But it can be found.  If Hard Mode does anything it will be to both make that easier to set up for Level 50 teams AND worth doing with better rewards.  That last part probably keeps plenty of people from bothering with harder modes of play that are already available.

 

Generally, I find +4/x8 on mid-level teams a good compromise.  No incarnates and often not everyone is fully IOed yet.  Roles matter more but still nothing in particular is absolutely required.  A team doesn't need a tank, but still benefits from one.  Same for buff/debuffs or control.   

 

More than half the reason I won't set foot in a farm isn't any disdain for people who farm but just that some of the best team gameplay still to be found in CoH is on low to mid-level teams where people still have SOs (or at least not full IO builds).  Takes me back.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, ZemX said:

 

"Enabled" isn't the same as required or even encouraged.  As loud as people were declaring themselves to be healers or "looking for healers" in game, there were equally loud people telling them they didn't need a healer.  That goes all the way back.

 

Yes, I know what the word "enabled" means. There is a reason I chose it. Its almost like I did not include in my post:

 

Quote

But people have also been finding ways to get by outside of the Trinity since the start too.

 

 

 

[ZemX]

2 minutes ago, lemming said:

Somewhere in the ancient past, Empathy was king and if you were a Kinetic, you were looked down on and sometimes wouldn't be picked up for a team.

 

I don't recall any such time and I started with the beta.  This probably depended on which circles you ran in.  The Holy Trinity was by then already well established in other pre-WoW MMOs so people brought it with them.  The game never required it though and Empaths weren't REALLY king.  They just often thought of themselves that way and enough people treated them that way.

 

But people who knew how the game actually worked could run circles around the tired Trinity.  Eight Defender teams were always a sight to behold.  Once you realized how stacking buffs/debuffs worked... it was off to the races really.  It was really funny to get one of those "healers" on a team back then that wasn't taking any damage thanks to the other support.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, ZemX said:

 

I don't recall any such time and I started with the beta.  This probably depended on which circles you ran in.

 

I remember being invited on one of my Kinetics defender to a team and then the subsequent joy when an Empathy defender joined the group later to get, "...a real healer."

 

Quote

The game never required it though and Empaths weren't REALLY king.  They just often thought of themselves that way and enough people treated them that way.

 

When there are enough people treating them as preferred Empathy types enjoyed an advantage in terms of getting groups because those groups wanted Empathy and almost nobody was going to demand to have any other type of Defender. Not really the end of the world for me because a certain amount of my time was spent solo and not everyone felt that not having a healbot shoved up their butt was the only way to get by.

 

But my second character in Live and my first to max level was a Radiation defender, and those enjoyed grief for their radial healing. Never could figure out why so many blasters and controllers could not understand that allowed them to be on one side of me with me between them and the melee, and the melee on the far side.

[ZemX]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Yes, I know what the word "enabled" means. There is a reason I chose it. Its almost like I did not include in my post

 

When you write a post that's 90% talking how popular and prevalent the Trinity is, don't bitch at ME because I didn't put that much weight on your last sentence that sounded like an exception to that rule.   I am saying people who bucked the Trinity were as popular, or more, than those who were sticking to it.  If that's what you're saying then great... we're saying the same thing.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

When you write a post that's 90% talking how popular and prevalent the Trinity is, don't bitch at ME because I didn't put that much weight on your last sentence that sounded like an exception to that rule.   I am saying people who bucked the Trinity were as popular, or more, than those who were sticking to it.  If that's what you're saying then great... we're saying the same thing.

 

Not what I did. Perhaps you should go back and reread.

 

Better yet, perhaps you should read it, because you can't reread unless you have actually read in the first place. 

 

You start off explaining the word "enabled" as if the word has some  meaning other than its actual meaning. So its clear you're the one here  with comprehension issues.

 

 

Edit: And adding that you did not fully read the post does not make me look bad in the least.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Erratic1

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

 

Don't know what to tell you other than stop farming Council maps.  Powers that don't do damage are still very valuable here.  

And I don’t know what to tell you besides that I don’t farm council maps and my most advanced characters are not challenged by almost any content at all. When you can solo +4/x8 Rularu on a Blaster there’s not much reason for cc or support to use their non damage powers. I’m very much looking forward to the new challenge modes.

[ZemX]

8 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Not what I did. Perhaps you should go back and reread.

 

I've read it several times and it, along with your follow ups, sure sound a lot more like you think empathy was more popular than I remember it being.  Maybe if when you think someone has misunderstood you, it would be more admirable to clarify than to insult first?  Just a thought for you.

[ZacKing]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

And I don’t know what to tell you besides that I don’t farm council maps and my most advanced characters are not challenged by almost any content at all. When you can solo +4/x8 Rularu on a Blaster there’s not much reason for cc or support to use their non damage powers. I’m very much looking forward to the new challenge modes.

 

Rualruu aren't all that hard to be honest.  never were.  If you're a fully decked out Incarnate with IO sets bonuses galore, congrats ... you're supposed to curbstomp regular content.  That was part of the incentive to do incarnates and IOs.  

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

I've read it several times and it, along with your follow ups, sure sound a lot more like you think empathy was more popular than I remember it being.  Maybe if when you think someone has misunderstood you, it would be more admirable to clarify than to insult first?  Just a thought for you.

 

Because you don't remember something or did not experience it does not make what more than one person has indicated to be their experiences not so.  There's a thought for you.

[Luminara]

A sandwich just isn't a sandwich without the tangy zip of Miracle Whip.

[PLVRIZR]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

A sandwich just isn't a sandwich without the tangy zip of Miracle Whip.

LOL

[PLVRIZR]

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Rualruu aren't all that hard to be honest.  never were.  

 

During the last TT and Sarah Moore TF, my "properly" built Inv/SS tanker (NUT) felt the same...😆

[lemming]

47 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

I don't recall any such time and I started with the beta.  This probably depended on which circles you ran in.

Beta here too. It happened enough and not just vs Kins.   Maybe it was more prevalent on Justice.    And at some point, people seemed to have more experience with the different powersets and got more flexible.

 

Nowadays, most pugs seem to figure things out with what winds up joining though an occasional AT swap will happen.