I want to perma-hold AVs. How?

[Voltak]

1 minute ago, Carnifax said:

Like I said, don't believe Mids. It's not good at edge cases. It has previous 🙂

 

By my reckoning Domination + Gathered fully-slotted-for-ToHit Shadow Field should be up around a 67.5% debuff. Shadow Field may be the only Domi power where Domination doubles the debuffs it does as well as the control (because no other Control set does the "Summon a 2nd instance of the pseudopet when I'm in Domination Mode" as far as I know of). 

 

 

But more than relying on Mids, I rely more on experience.  

I can certainly say to hit debuffs with my Dark/Dark Dom is great to use.  

Then, again, Carnifax, remember that on top of all of that Clarion Radial, which I used to solo Master of ITF with no insps, that magnifies the debuffs even more.  

At that point it rivals the support class of defenders and corruptors  to hit debuffs 

So, when you first brought up the issue of Gloom, you did not recall that it's both, primaries and secondary.  

Both apply and both stack.  

Fearsome stare and Shadow field is a great combo then add the rest on top of it. 

Even the pets are stacking to hit debuffs 

[Carnifax]

 

6 minutes ago, Voltak said:

We should not take anything away from them. They are great vs those AVs . 

 

I'm not arguing per say, but I am enjoying untangling things to figure out why. 

[Voltak]

1 minute ago, Carnifax said:

 

 

I'm not arguing per say, but I am enjoying untangling things to figure out why. 

Makes sense. I am all for that 

Also, let's remember that may be wrong and actually being wrong is two different things. 

If you want to help me out, we can grab a tank and my dark / dark dom.   I can lay the debuffs down and with power analyzer, we can get some nice screen shots of the debuff totals 

What do you say ?  

you into this ?

[Carnifax]

3 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Makes sense. I am all for that 

Also, let's remember that may be wrong and actually being wrong is two different things. 

If you want to help me out, we can grab a tank and my dark / dark dom.   I can lay the debuffs down and with power analyzer, we can get some nice screen shots of the debuff totals 

What do you say ?  

you into this ?

I would be, but it'll be next week (Bank Holiday here and I'm away all weekend). I even have a nice candidate for the taunt-bot tank who can happily distract them while we check (on Reunion but I can easily switch him to whereever)

 

[Voltak]

3 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I would be, but it'll be next week (Bank Holiday here and I'm away all weekend). I even have a nice candidate for the taunt-bot tank who can happily distract them while we check (on Reunion but I can easily switch him to whereever)

 

Sounds like a plan

All this stuff is more valuable than spreadsheets 

[Psyonico]

25 minutes ago, Voltak said:

 and no one is soloing AVs unless they are IO'd and with defenses at soft cap. 

 

My Illusion/Dark soloed Arbiter Sands in the MLTF  without defense at the soft cap, I probably would solo the Maria Arc as AVs but I did it before I was fully built out and the flashback version is only EBs, even with AVs turned on, when you're solo.

[nihilii]

There's actually a surprising amount of AVs you can solo with a baseline ~20% def to all and an epic shield covering S/L resistances, simply because many of them are melee based and keeping them perma-immobilized at a 40+ feet range destroys their DPS. Throw in a strong -regen secondary, decent healing to patch up the hits that do get through, and good positioning so you have an obstacle to break line of sight should the need arise. But unless you ran dry or do it as a self-imposed challenge, it's obviously simpler to just carry a tray of purples and chomp 2 at a time.

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

 

My Illusion/Dark soloed Arbiter Sands in the MLTF  without defense at the soft cap, I probably would solo the Maria Arc as AVs but I did it before I was fully built out and the flashback version is only EBs, even with AVs turned on, when you're solo.

Illusion/Dark Controller

 

That's what I was referring to in the parts where I talked about to hit debuffs 

When to hit debuffs are there, you get benefit plenty from them so that you don't need to be at soft cap

Otherwise, without those to hit debuffs, most likely you will be at soft cap, and my focus was on +4 AVs.  

Cool ?

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

There's actually a surprising amount of AVs you can solo with a baseline ~20% def to all and an epic shield covering S/L resistances, simply because many of them are melee based and keeping them perma-immobilized at a 40+ feet range destroys their DPS. Throw in a strong -regen secondary, decent healing to patch up the hits that do get through, and good positioning so you have an obstacle to break line of sight should the need arise. But unless you ran dry or do it as a self-imposed challenge, it's obviously simpler to just carry a tray of purples and chomp 2 at a time.

Yes, and I should have been more specific so I will go edit the post immediately

At 50+. my focus was more about AVs at +4 , and without to hit debuffs present.  

Since my emphasis was 1) the permanent hold issue and 2) the benefits of to hit debuffs 

 

[LynxNordique]

2 hours ago, Voltak said:

The bottom line is after adding everything, after all that stuff stacking on the AV...  It is certainly a great set of instruments to use , and no one is soloing AVs unless they are IO'd and with defenses at soft cap.  I am so all those to hit debuffs are great



 

 

Not true. My earth/kin, wich is not even 50 yet and with very minimal IOs (one full set and one proc) and mostly Origin Enhancements, has already soloed Vandal, Neuron Countess Cree and the Clockwork King, with minimal Inspiration and no temp or P2W powers. This toon hardly has any meaningfull defense.

 

I agree that perma holding an AV would be a waste for a Controller, because there is more to that when fighting AVs. Mitigating the incoming damages (Most of them hit like a truck), dealing with the insane regen, reducing the resistance and, more importantly, dealing damages (which is already not the Controllers' Forte), among other things. The immobilize is enough to set up containment anyway, most of the time. 

 

You don't go fight an AV just like you fight a boss. You have to know what you're doing. What toggles needs to be on. What is my opening? What will be the most appropriate attacks/debuffs/buffs chain? What powers should I cast at soon at it will be available? For example, if you are fighting Mako, an Earth controller will have to cast and constantly maintain Volcanic Gasses, Earthquake and quicksands. This way, you will overcome Mako's high defense. If the same troller fight Malaise, since he can hardly dent Stoney and he has not meaningfull defenses, you don't care about that and beat the crap out of him as long as you can overcome his regen (-regen and dealing enough damages).

 

It is good to consider that the hold attacks do give a break in the fight when the purple triangles are down. That is something to appreciate when it happens. I can't count the times my Earth/RAD was almost done for when the AV purple triangles went down . It just gave me enough time to heal, adjust and finish the fight.

[Ukase]

So, I was reading all this ...and really, just fascinated, and impressed with the level of detail with all the maths. Good stuff, and it's posts like these that can plant a great seed and turn a casual player into a real nerd, and that can't be a bad thing. Really good stuff! 

[Voltak]

9 minutes ago, LynxNordique said:

 

Not true. My earth/kin, wich is not even 50 yet and with very minimal IOs (one full set and one proc) and mostly Origin Enhancements, has already soloed Vandal, Neuron Countess Cree and the Clockwork King, with minimal Inspiration and no temp or P2W powers. This toon hardly has any meaningfull defense.

 

I agree that perma holding an AV would be a waste for a Controller, because there is more to that when fighting AVs. Mitigating the incoming damages (Most of them hit like a truck), dealing with the insane regen, reducing the resistance and, more importantly, dealing damages (which is already not the Controllers' Forte), among other things. The immobilize is enough to set up containment anyway, most of the time. 

 

You don't go fight an AV just like you fight a boss. You have to know what you're doing. What toggles needs to be on. What is my opening? What will be the most appropriate attacks/debuffs/buffs chain? What powers should I cast at soon at it will be available? For example, if you are fighting Mako, an Earth controller will have to cast and constantly maintain Volcanic Gasses, Earthquake and quicksands. This way, you will overcome Mako's high defense. If the same troller fight Malaise, since he can hardly dent Stoney and he has not meaningfull defenses, you don't care about that and beat the crap out of him as long as you can overcome his regen (-regen and dealing enough damages).

 

It is good to consider that the hold attacks do give a break in the fight when the purple triangles are down. That is something to appreciate when it happens. I can't count the times my Earth/RAD was almost done for when the AV purple triangles went down . It just gave me enough time to heal, adjust and finish the fight.

Please go back up and read again my post. 

As I said some posts after that, I explained in more detail.  

 

[Hyperstrike]

8 Fire/Rad Controllers

Lock them down, weld the lock shut.

"Look out for the..."
*SIZZLE*
*AUGH!*
*THUMP*
"Well...THAT was disappointing..."
"Hey!  Where'd this dead AV come from?"

[Psyonico]

4 hours ago, Voltak said:

Yes, and I should have been more specific so I will go edit the post immediately

At 50+. my focus was more about AVs at +4 , and without to hit debuffs present.  

Since my emphasis was 1) the permanent hold issue and 2) the benefits of to hit debuffs 

 

 

Fine, I just soloed (edit: at 54) Chimera on my Illusion/Storm with just an Alpha and a Destiny slotted, not capped defense, and did not use hurricane.

 

It took me about 14 minutes to do and for some reason it didn't record correctly, otherwise I'd upload the video proof of it.  I'll play around with my settings and do it again later.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Psyonico

[Psyonico]

Ok, to make things go a little faster, I slotted a Degenerative Interface.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

Yeah, illusion and to a lessor extend earth control sets are a bit of an exception due to their strong pets that taunt.  An illusion controller really doesn't need any defense at all to do this as long as they have enough recharge for perma pa.  They might take one hit (as what happened in @Psyonico's video at the 2:13 mark, I think the anti one-shot code may have even saved you there)  between summons, but as long as you can survive that maybe one hit you are good.  There's also the chance that during that brief time the AV is triangles down and held anyway (think I also saw that in the video), or they go after the phantasm or one of its decoys instead, so often you don't even take one hit.

 

Good show.

 

[Doomguide2005]

@Riverduskgot it in while I was typing 👍.

 

Earth and Illusion both have something going for them that no other Controllers have.  Their pets.  More specifically pets whose attacks taunt their target.

• All of Stoney's attacks carry a mag 4 13.2 sec taunt in addition to their other effects and damage.
• PA again all attacks carry a mag 4 taunt some at 27.2 sec the rest at 26.66 sec.  PA's decoy also has +500% threat modifier for 0.45 sec.  I'm guessing the last is to grab attention as the decoy appears, while the rest (the attacks) keeps the attention focused on PA for the duration.
• Phantasm creates a decoyphantasm and its attacks carry a mag 4, 13.33 sec taunt (the phanty's decoy.  Phantasm carries no taunt itself).

That's why Illusion (often /RadEm) was solo veteran long before IOs even existed.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

Ok, to make things go a little faster, I slotted a Degenerative Interface.

 

 

1. This is an Illusion / Controller

Taunt is a huge help.   A very important example of what I am saying is right at the beginning of your video.  You just about got killed within seconds of starting the fight.  You got saved because Phantom Army saved you with their taunt. 
This is more important than a to hit debuff. 

If the AV is locked on you, then what I said stands.  I have some very extensive experience soloing AVs, soloing AVs while their Focus of ago is on me.   Even on a dominator, where I can confuse the AV, at some point that confuse or hold is going to break and the Aggro will be on me, the one exception was the ITF where Imperious took a good chunk of Aggro for my Dom in part 4.   Other than that, what I said stands and is not being refuted, my brother.  So If the AV is not locked in on you, then what I said is not an important factor.  


So, in your video, neither defenses nor to hit debuffs mattered because you biggest defense was indeed a very strong taunt bot - Phantom Army 

So your statement that defense don't need to be at cap or near cap is NOT helping players who play without a taunt bot like Phantom Army or Stoney.  

In those cases, without taunt bot, my advice is important, not yours ( I said this respecfully ).   Because the brunt of the aggro will be on you, not any pets.  

Edited October 23, 2021 by Voltak

[Psyonico]

12 minutes ago, Voltak said:

1. This is an Illusion / Controller

Taunt is a huge help.  This is more important than a to hit debuff. 

If the AV is locked on you, then what I said stands. 

If the AV is not locked in on you, then what I said is not an important factor.  


2.  In any case, What were your defenses at ?   

I was hoping to see the numbers, Psy.   

Cheers 

 

1. you're moving the goalpost, you said you can't do it without capped defense/to-hit debuffs, I showed you it's possible.

2. I put up all my defense numbers on the right hand side of the video (I forgot my toggles at the beginning of the fight, so they were lower than what they were after I turned them on)

 

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

8 Fire/Rad Controllers

Lock them down, weld the lock shut.

"Look out for the..."
*SIZZLE*
*AUGH!*
*THUMP*
"Well...THAT was disappointing..."
"Hey!  Where'd this dead AV come from?"

Lol 😆

Though to be fair a single AV vs 8 Controllers of any sort is already in serious trouble in terms of getting perma Held unless they've something above and beyond PToD vs holds to help them out.  That's ~25 mag every 3 seconds or so just from their single target holds. 

[Voltak]

39 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

1. you're moving the goalpost, you said you can't do it without capped defense/to-hit debuffs, I showed you it's possible.

2. I put up all my defense numbers on the right hand side of the video (I forgot my toggles at the beginning of the fight, so they were lower than what they were after I turned them on)

 

Psyonico 

Let's recap a bit here.   (Oh, and very nice to see that build I made for you, you made some minor changes, but otherwise kept it the way I made it for you -- "I made a couple of minor changes to your build, Voltak, (illusion / storm )  but keeping it the same for the most part (now I just need to hit 50 and also get a boatload more inf :P) "  -- from the Repeat Offenders forum. 

Your first response in your argument was saying that you solo'd AVs without being soft cap'd at your defenses 

To which I responded that I was talking about 54s and I was indeed talking about to hit debuffs being a great tool vs AVs and how it compliments even on builds that don't have cap'd defenses (as I said in other posts).   Yet, even in this case illusion has taunt bots. 

Your response to that ?   Posting a video NOT of the illusion/dark, but posting a video of an illusion storm.   

Thus the discussion was about defenses and to hit debuffs 
Then you moved the focus on an illusion/storm , but, again, Illusion has Phantom army who have a very strong taunt aura to them, so there's no focus on you, and your defenses nor your to hit debuffs are being tested at all.  

So again, my advice is important and relevant to those trying to solo AVs BUT WHO HAVE the aggro on themselves. 

___________________________

Yet it's important to go back to what I said, what I actually said.  I never ever stated that you cannot solo an AV +4 without defenses at cap. 

"...and no one is soloing AVs, in the case of AVs at lvl 50+, with difficulty settings of +4, unless they are IO'd and with defenses at soft cap, or without having To Hit debuffs.  "    - "I am cap, so all those to hit debuffs are great additions. " "We should not take anything away from them. They are great vs those AVs . "

Then I also stated after that the following -- "When to hit debuffs are there, you get benefit plenty from them so that you don't need to be at soft cap

Otherwise, without those to hit debuffs, most likely you will be at soft cap, and my focus was on +4 AVs.  " 

The idea is clear, Psy, it is obviously being implied  -->>  
AVs at 54 will require some form of mitigation - either defenses at cap OR some way to mitigate the incoming offense , so that's why I mentioned the to hit debuffs.  But you can and you should include here that an AV that is not focused on you will not require you to have cap defenses.  That's obvious. 
 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Voltak

[Psyonico]

Now I'm confused... Are you saying that controllers can't solo level 54 AVs without damage mitigation? I'd say that's pretty much a given.

 

I chose my illusion/storm over my illusion/dark because of the comment you made about to-hit debuffs being helpful when you aren't at capped defense, the concept is the same though... PA doing the tanking and some damage while I whittle away with tar patch, blind, spectral wounds, with howling Twilight there to do a good chunk of -Regen.

 

If, however that is still out of the scope of what you're looking for, I suspect a dark/energy perma-dom would be a good choice.  I can't crunch the numbers right now, but I suspect with power boost and clarion radial you could get the ~10 stacked confuses needed to confuse through PToD, then your pets could (slowly) whittle away at the AV while you basically just keep confusing it and throwing in an attack randomly when you aren't casting confuse/hasten/PB/clarion/domination

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Now I'm confused... Are you saying that controllers can't solo level 54 AVs without damage mitigation? I'd say that's pretty much a given.

 

I chose my illusion/storm over my illusion/dark because of the comment you made about to-hit debuffs being helpful when you aren't at capped defense, the concept is the same though... PA doing the tanking and some damage while I whittle away with tar patch, blind, spectral wounds, with howling Twilight there to do a good chunk of -Regen.

 

If, however that is still out of the scope of what you're looking for, I suspect a dark/energy perma-dom would be a good choice.  I can't crunch the numbers right now, but I suspect with power boost and clarion radial you could get the ~10 stacked confuses needed to confuse through PToD, then your pets could (slowly) whittle away at the AV while you basically just keep confusing it and throwing in an attack randomly when you aren't casting confuse/hasten/PB/clarion/domination

My whole focus was exactly on that -- when soloing AVs, dominators and controllers need some of mitigation.  
But in this case I was referring to, since we began a discussion about perma holding, then I advocated to hit debuffs as great tools to use, my whole drive was towards having mitigation.  

So, it went from perma holding, to to hit debuffs, to the relation of defenses with to hit debuffs, all in the sakes of presenting important instruments needed when soloing AVs and the focus of the provoked  aggro is you. 

That whole was the scope I was angling for.   I am not looking for builds to solo AV.  I have plenty experience soloing them and my Dark/Dark Dom has done a good chunk of it too, tested and proven.  I would take a dark/dark over a dark/energy dom any day , every day.    

We weren't even discussing how to perma confuse an AV.  


The discussion I started about was directly in answer to the OP -- that controllers cannot perma hold an AV, only dominators can do that, and I elaborated on which one exactly has been tested/proven to do so in the tests conducted.  

I refer you to that post above if you want to see the numbers.  

[Scarlet Shocker]

Question (caveat - I've not read every post in the thread) but does it not depend also on the AV in question?

 

Romulus is relatively easy to hold on ITF - and if you get the drop on the four horsemen, Recluse's henchmen in MLTF, they can be held relatively simply one by one. But some others are just not doable easily even when stacked.

 

Is there a table or data for what AVs are susceptible to what powerS?

Edited November 11, 2021 by Scarlet Shocker

[Voltak]

11 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Question (caveat - I've not read every post in the thread) but does it not depend also on the AV in question?

 

Romulus is relatively easy to hold on ITF - and if you get the drop on the four horsemen, Recluse's henchmen in MLTF, they can be held relatively simply one by one. But some others are just not doable easily even when stacked.

 

Is there a table or data for what AVs are susceptible to what powerS?

There is a difference between holding an AV and permanently holding an AV

To hold an AV it is easy 
To permanently hold an AV, that is for dominators
Controllers do not have the ability to stack magnitudes like a Dominator 

This is especially true for +4 AVs.