Def vs Res

[Werner]

34 minutes ago, Sovera said:

So what do I do with my slots? Aim for even more recharge? I'd rather have some debuff protection and...

Right, instead of focusing on defense, I think @ZemX was focusing on debuff resistance. I feel like that's the biggest danger once endgame builds are tough enough with the basics. Though on my Dark/MA, despite handling -tohit and -recharge, and Barrier for -defense, I still have 55% melee 44% ranged/AoE defense (without Barrier), so it isn't necessarily either/or, but both Dark and MA have some defense to stack on, so I'm not building from a pure resistance base. Still, my defense is ablative. In some tough fights, that's going away. So maybe I would benefit from lowering my defense if there are other debuffs I can focus on, like taking my resists even higher to handle -resist. Though I feel like I've pushed energy and toxic about as far as they can go, and everything else is 90% with a single Might of the Tanker, so already a bit of a debuff cushion with multiple stacks and the scaling resist IO. Idono. I'm not sure what to do if not defense. I'm at least intrigued by the idea, though. (Edit: No, I could push energy and toxic resists harder, I think...)

Edited October 28, 2021 by Werner

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Werner said:

Right, instead of focusing on defense, I think @ZemX was focusing on debuff resistance. I feel like that's the biggest danger once endgame builds are tough enough with the basics. Though on my Dark/MA, despite handling -tohit and -recharge, and Barrier for -defense, I still have 55% melee 44% ranged/AoE defense (without Barrier), so it isn't necessarily either/or, but both Dark and MA have some defense to stack on, so I'm not building from a pure resistance base. Still, my defense is ablative. In some tough fights, that's going away. So maybe I would benefit from lowering my defense if there are other debuffs I can focus on, like taking my resists even higher to handle -resist. Though I feel like I've pushed Energy and Toxic about as far as they can go, and everything else is 90% with a single Might of the Tanker, so already a bit of a debuff cushion with multiple stacks and the scaling resist IO. Idono. I'm not sure what to do if not defense. I'm at least intrigued by the idea, though.

 

Though there would always be a 'correct' answer I'd like the system to be more flexible and that we could, for example, pump some really good regen numbers. I'd trade defense for that since it plays hand in hand with resistances.

 

But I like I also said above testing Hybrid and getting on the upwards of 700% regen wasn't enough to survive so what sort of wacky numbers would we be looking at with a more flexible IO system?

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

You don't dump defense and become stronger. This implies you weren't running with 90% resistances to begin with.

 

Or it implies the defense wasn't keeping me alive, in which case ANYTHING makes me "stronger" if I can trade some defense for it.  That's the point I'm making.

 

We're Immortal, Dying, or Dead.   If that defense isn't contributing to me being Immortal or at least not dying quickly enough to become dead before the fight is won... then it's effectively of zero benefit.  More to the point, if it's not already doing that for me in cases where defense debuffs are NOT in play, then it most certainly isn't helping me in cases where they ARE. 

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

So what do I do with my slots? Aim for even more recharge? I'd rather have some debuff protection and 40% defenses adding to Barrier when I have to click on it. Personal tastes and opinion here.

 

Yeah this depends a little on how one plays.  If you solo a lot and rely on Incarnates, it's a different story.  I don't.  I team a lot.  And I find team ITFs that aren't L44 challenge mode laughably easy, defense or no defense for Barrier to add on to.   I also exemplar a lot, so my basic build strategy ignores Incarnates.  They are a bonus, not a crutch.

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

But yeah, I agree putting defense up is not terribly important in the sense that 90% is already a very tough wall to overcome.

 

For Rad Armor at least, the wall is 90% res AND an 1100hp Absorb shield AND a decent self heal (that I rarely use).   This is why I noticed no problem when I gave up on aiming for IO defense.  So yeah, I did aim for more recharge and that debuff resistance.  Even shaving a few seconds off of Particle Shielding is more significant to my survival than defense I can't count on when I need it most.   If it's of more benefit to Fire Armor then I believe you.  I have never tried it.

[PLVRIZR]

3 hours ago, ZemX said:

 I also exemplar a lot, so my basic build strategy ignores Incarnates.  They are a bonus...

 

 

☝️ - this. 

 

Not that respeccing at 50, to be a "true and only" Incarnate is a bad thing, my pre-I1 experience trained my brain that even, in those instances I power-leveled a toon to 50, the builds have been and will always be leveling builds, with incarnates as bonus.  You can see it in my tank builds, as they are all primary heavy early, because a tank's job isn't necessarily to kill things, it's to keep your teammates from being killed...while they kill things....err, "arrest".

Edited October 28, 2021 by PLVRIZR
reworded

[Warboss]

1 hour ago, PLVRIZR said:

 because a tank's job isn't necessarily to kill things, it's to keep your teammates from being killed...while they kill things....err, "arrest".

 

Run Rad/FIre/* PLV, then you can do both! ;)

[Hyperstrike]

11 hours ago, mcdoogss said:

If we are talking layered defense sets, let's not leave out Granite.  Ok ok, it's crazy overkill sure, there is nothing in the game that requires this much survivability. But it' still fun to never be in danger.

 

I also think that relatively few people have built stone/ tankers recently and are biased against it because of the reputation of the drawbacks of Granite.  I'd urge you to pair it with an admittedly overtuned set like Energy Melee, and the revamped Teleportation pool. 

 

 

 

Where do you think AFK farming came from?

[Hyperstrike]

8 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Or it implies the defense wasn't keeping me alive, in which case ANYTHING makes me "stronger" if I can trade some defense for it.  That's the point I'm making.

 

We're Immortal, Dying, or Dead.   If that defense isn't contributing to me being Immortal or at least not dying quickly enough to become dead before the fight is won... then it's effectively of zero benefit.  More to the point, if it's not already doing that for me in cases where defense debuffs are NOT in play, then it most certainly isn't helping me in cases where they ARE. 

 

 

Yeah this depends a little on how one plays.  If you solo a lot and rely on Incarnates, it's a different story.  I don't.  I team a lot.  And I find team ITFs that aren't L44 challenge mode laughably easy, defense or no defense for Barrier to add on to.   I also exemplar a lot, so my basic build strategy ignores Incarnates.  They are a bonus, not a crutch.

 

 

For Rad Armor at least, the wall is 90% res AND an 1100hp Absorb shield AND a decent self heal (that I rarely use).   This is why I noticed no problem when I gave up on aiming for IO defense.  So yeah, I did aim for more recharge and that debuff resistance.  Even shaving a few seconds off of Particle Shielding is more significant to my survival than defense I can't count on when I need it most.   If it's of more benefit to Fire Armor then I believe you.  I have never tried it.

Precisely.  Immortality comes in depth of mitigation.
Going "I have 1000% Defense!"

Okay great.  Up until the enemy debuffs you to nothing or bypass your Defense with superior ToHit.
Then, because you've neglected everything else, you're frenching floor.
Once you get your defenses to just a smidge over soft-cap, look at improving Resist, Regen, Damage Output, etc.

This way, if something starts being able to RELIABLY bypass/eliminate your Defense, it still takes them a while to chew through the "gristle".

[Carnifax]

16 hours ago, ZemX said:

 I also exemplar a lot, so my basic build strategy ignores Incarnates.  They are a bonus, not a crutch.

I do this on my Rad/MA tank too. Incarnates are "A big lump of extra damage" (musc alpha) and "I'd like my eggshell Def back for a bit and a bunch of recharge please" (Ageless Radial). 

 

I don't need either to do my main job of not-dying. And I'm not too worried if my s/l/m capped defenses get stripped away (although I do love "Noping" enemies by popping Ageless)

 

Even without them and at heavily debuffed -50% def I'm sitting at 90% resists to pretty much everything, an absorb shield and a heal. And, crucially any of the debuffs coming in with that -50% def don't matter very much thanks to Recharge debuff resists, End drain resists and the ToHit resist from Focused Acc. The only things that are remotely scary are 54/8 Uber Banished if I'm not paying attention to the Frost bosses. 

 

I did aggressively slot Rad Therapy to be a proc bomb (2 Heal/Recharges, Theft of Essense proc and then three damage procs) because the AoE is silly on a tank and I don't need the Heal and Recharge maxxed out to survive. 

[ninja surprise]

Another point for OP on the Resist vs Defense: Resistance builds are more expensive than Defense.

Defense is cheap to softcap, with SR not even needing set bonuses to soft-cap. 

Resist: you're going to be shelling out hundreds of millions to get all the Winters, Tanker sets, uniques, and other hot sets to get 'em capped.