Def vs Res

[drgantz]

I assume that Res based Powersets are better for a Tanker than Def based.  Are def based sets such as SR good?
Are regen based sets such as WP good?

[SeraphimKensai]

Res sets on a tanker have a hard cap at 90%. Def sets still softcap at the same values for all AT's, it's just easier to get there. Regen based sets can be great, when paired with the above for layering especially defense.

 

There's not much that can kill a well built tank outside of serious debuffs.

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, drgantz said:

I assume that Res based Powersets are better for a Tanker than Def based.  Are def based sets such as SR good?

In a vacumn, +Def beats +Res.
That's because you cap at 90% Resistance (you take 10% damage) compared to Defence flooring your enemies hit rate at a 5% ToHit chance (you take 5% damage)

However you can generally get a mixture of both - and characters start off with an inherent 50% chance to be "missed" by foes; which helps keeps things even-ish until you start really stacking up the numbers.

The general consensus in the CoH community is to layer things.

Focus on Softcapping Defence first, then raise your Resistance and Maximum Hit Points as much as possible.
For a melee character, aim for at least 45% Defence (regular content) or 59% Defence (incarnate content) on at least your "Positional" Melee defence or your "Typed" S/L defence. Then make sure that you're packing some Defence Debuff Resistance (DDR) if at all possible.

However certain defensive powersets have very little if any +Defence buffs - some examples here would be Radiation Armor and Electric Armor and Regeneration.
In those cases, a valid way to build would be to largely ignore Defence and instead focus on hardcapping your damage resistance at 90%; and/or increasing your other mitigation ("clicky heals") by stacking +Recharge and Maximum Hitpoints.

 

Quote

Are regen based sets such as WP good?

WP is a "good" powerset for damage mitigation - but not because it's Regen-based.
WP provides +Resistance and +Defence and +Maximum Hitpoints in addition to its +Regeneration.

+Regeneration is currently the weakest form of damage mitigation, because it is only designed to cope with a certain level of incoming damage. Beyond that level it gets completely overwhelmed. By itself, +regen simply can't keep up with the sheer amount of incoming damage that a melee character can expect to recieve in today's game. And a LOT of the newer enemy types have powers which debuff your regneration rate: +Absorb is often objectively better than +Regeneration because it can't be debuffed.

I should probably point out that I do actually like +Regeneration. My namesake on live was a Katana/Regen Scrapper, and he could solo nearly anything. But that was due to him being melee defence softcapped (via Divine Avalanche) combined with being at the maximum hit point cap with a decent level of health regeneration.
 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Maelwys

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

That's because you cap at 90% Resistance (you take 10% damage) compared to Defence flooring your enemies hit rate at a 5% ToHit chance (you take 5% damage)

This is only for even level minions. If you're fighting a +3 AV/GM, your floor would be around 10% (the same as resistance). There are also foes with innate +hit or +accuracy benefits that further minimize the impact of defenses. Defense debuffs are also significantly more effective than Resistance debuffs - there's no such thing as a 'cascading resistance failure'.

[PLVRIZR]

<----unashamed Invulnerability fanboy

 

Agree with everything said about "layering".  Why Inv and Shield are so good, if you're looking at just survivability.

 

I will say, however, when the Def numbers go in the red, even at 90% resist, when being hit by 10, 15, 20 enemies at at time (I'm looking at you Romanesque Cimerorans), that 10% can add up to feel like a sort of cascading failure...

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

This is only for even level minions. If you're fighting a +3 AV/GM, your floor would be around 10% (the same as resistance). There are also foes with innate +hit or +accuracy benefits that further minimize the impact of defenses. Defense debuffs are also significantly more effective than Resistance debuffs - there's no such thing as a 'cascading resistance failure'.

Indeed!

A full discussion is probably beyond the scope of this thread, but if the OP wants to get into the nitty-gritty of it all, a good place to start would be https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

As a very quick summary:

Spoiler

 

HitChance = Clamp(AccMods x Clamp(BaseHitChance + ToHitMods - DefMods))
 

BaseHitChance starts off as 50% ("0% Defence") assuming that no debuffs/buffs are in play.
Adding sufficent extra +Defence buffs or -Tohit debuffs will always be able to reduce the bit inside that right-hand bracket part of the calculation to 5% (this is where the "Clamp" kicks in: 5% is the minimum it lets you get to!)
 

However then you get Accuracy Modifiers - AccMods - applied.
AccMods depend on the attack itself, the mob's rank and the mob's combat level relative to their target's combat level.
A +3 AV making an attack against a player would gain 1.3 Acc (from level) and 1.5 Acc (from Rank)
You multiply those together, which works out at a 1.95 multiplier for their AccMod.

So the upshot is that the chance for one of those AV's "regular attacks" to actually connect with your character at the 5% ToHit floor would become 0.05*1.95=0.0975; or 9.75%

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Maelwys

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Defense debuffs are also significantly more effective than Resistance debuffs - there's no such thing as a 'cascading resistance failure'.

 

Which is why, to answer the OP directly on SR, it IS fantastic on tanks. Capped DDR (for all SR using ATs) means cascading defense failures don't exist, and between the scaling damres from SR with the added scaling DR from the Reactive Defenses Proc AND the extra damres from the Might of the Tanker AT IO proc, you can easily find yourself at 1/3 health with softcapped defense, capped damres and still have almost 1000 HP. Or in other words, immortality.

[Xandyr]

With WP, you can soft cap (45%+) your Fire,Cold,Energy, and Negative Energy defense. Combined with being able to soft cap your Smashing/Lethal resistances, and decent Psi Resist, WP is more than just a one trick pony.

 You can also increase your Max HP (which in turn increases your regen rate) and increase your Regeneration rate. 

 My WP tank has over 3k HP and a base regen of 75 hp/sec,along with capped S/L resistance and soft capped F/C/E/N.E defense. A fully saturated RttC gets me to about 182 hp/sec (if I remember correctly).

[BZRKR]

Defense with Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) is Great!

Defense backed up by good Resistances is Great!

Defense with Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) and good Resistances is Shield!

 

For your reading enjoyment, a thread from about a month ago.

 

[tidge]

When not considering AT: Defense is generally better than Resistance. One of the key components that bring Resistance into the discussion for Tankers (and Brutes) is that those AT have such large Max HP caps, that it is possible(*1) to recover HP at a rate that is roughly on the order of damage taken.  As others have written: layering both Defense and Resistance is a good strategy, but it is possible to play a Tanker through a lot of content without worrying about maximizing both/either. It can be valuable to monitor combat attributes (defenses, resistances) during play to understand how different enemy types are affecting you.

 

(*1) check with your doctor when facing certain enemies before deciding if Resistance is good for you.

[ZemX]

On my Rad tanker, I eventually gave up on bothering much with defense.  But Rad already layers absorb, healing, and resistance and that's good in all cases I've found except when I am surrounded by angry, buffed, Cimerorans with no access to Incarnates to keep defense up (level 44 challenge).  Aside from that, I haven't needed defense with this build.

 

I'm still trying to find a defense-based tanker I like enough to play to 50.  I generally think building resistance onto a defense set is better than building defense on a resistance set because of DDR.   Obviously if you can rely on Incarnate abilities for it, that's different, but I exemplar often enough I can't rely on it in general.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I'm still trying to find a defense-based tanker I like enough to play to 50.

 

Shield. As much as I love SR, shield is just better... numerically. Can reach the same softcap, nearish enough DDR with doublestacked active defense, more base damres at 100% health but the kicker is the damage bonus from AAO. Regardless of what anyone might say to the contrary, damage is king in this game because we get XP by killin baddies. While SR's +20% recharge is nice, it just doesn't compare to a saturated AAO. And for a truly silly ride, go shield/nrg tank. The ST damage is insane and shield charge helps on the AoE front quite a bit.

[drgantz]

Thank you for your replies.  From what you've said, it appears that SD and WP are  two of the better Tanker Primaries because they are all around.  I'm guessing that MA and Kat/BS are 2 of the better Secondaries because of the Def bonus.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, drgantz said:

Thank you for your replies.  From what you've said, it appears that SD and WP are  two of the better Tanker Primaries because they are all around.  I'm guessing that MA and Kat/BS are 2 of the better Secondaries because of the Def bonus.

 

You can't do katana or dual blades (or claws, which really should be on your watch list of awesomeness for its wondrous balance between single target and aoe damage, or titan weapons) with shield. But a willpower/katana tank would certainly be interesting. A shield/ma tank would also be quite good.

[Psyonico]

/Dark Melee is another good choice depending on your primary.  Dark has a self heal that can fill the hole that (for example) shield has.

[Maelwys]

Don't forget Staff.
It pairs particularly nicely with the likes of WP and Bio because they natively buff E/N/F/C Defence and Guarded Spin buffs Lethal/Melee... 😀

Honestly, lots of different powerset combinations work. You can even cover certain holes with Epic/Patron pool abilities (such as 'Conserve Power', 'Darkest Night' or in the case Scrappers/Stalkers, 'Shadow Meld') or Incarnates (such as Ageless and Barrier).

However if you're asking about efficiency, then SD is probably the set that is overall the most well-rounded (and yes, /SR is good too, but it doesn't have +Damage buffs or a Teleport Nuke...) It lacks a self-heal, but Dark Melee or Radiation Melee have that covered. Rad Melee + SD is rather difficult to beat in most sorts of content. Note that nothing is completely immortal - autohit abilities and certain mobs that deal ridiculous amounts of particularly tricky debuffs (such as the Crimson Prototype from Market Crash) can + will wreck your face if you're not careful. You can beat them, but it requires a bit more effort than "just roll your face over the keyboard until the mission ends"... ⌨️ ⌨️ 🥳
 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Which is why, to answer the OP directly on SR, it IS fantastic on tanks. Capped DDR (for all SR using ATs) means cascading defense failures don't exist, and between the scaling damres from SR with the added scaling DR from the Reactive Defenses Proc AND the extra damres from the Might of the Tanker AT IO proc, you can easily find yourself at 1/3 health with softcapped defense, capped damres and still have almost 1000 HP. Or in other words, immortality.

 

Pretty sure that last word should be immorality.  😁

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Pretty sure that last word should be immorality.  😁

 

 

I promise that the first will ALWAYS lead to the second.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Shield. As much as I love SR, shield is just better... numerically. Can reach the same softcap, nearish enough DDR with doublestacked active defense, more base damres at 100% health but the kicker is the damage bonus from AAO.

 

Yeah, I should have said my problem is really more about the secondary and not entirely about the performance.  I have at this point, in various stages of low to mid-levels: SD/Rad, SD/Dark, and SD/MA.  And I've taken an Ice/SD Stalker to 50, so I am pretty familiar with how Shield operates.

 

But... the Rad and Dark melee Shield tankers have been kind of a slog.  They are both just so uninspiring to play so far.  Slow.  Late-developing.  Lack-luster AoE on Dark.  My Rad/Staff just took off and needed no pushing from me to run all the way to 50 on pick-up teams.  Big, fast, early AoEs.  The Rad has just gotten Irradiated Ground which is both good (or will be once procced up) but also kind of boring.  You just stand there and it does damage.  Meh.

 

The MA is somewhat interesting and might be the one.  It may only have the one AoE but it's fast recharging, decent sized (though not quite as large as Staff's Eye of the Storm), and takes an FF:Rech proc.  It also has Storm Kick to provide an extra defense boost which, together with decent DDR, should make it hard to crack.

 

Outside of Shield, I have been considering (but haven't rolled up yet) an Invuln or SR tanker with either Staff or TW as the secondary.

 

ETA: Big reason I might consider SR/Staff, even though I've already got one Staff tanker is the +res on Staff's Form of Body + Sky Splitter.  With IOs, Sky Splitter's +res, Might of the Tanker's +res, maybe even that little bit of Absorb from Gauntleted Fist, AND scaling resistances?  Who needs a heal?  Okay... outside of auto-hit situations, this guy would be very hard to kill even at 40% health.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ZemX

[Erratic1]

My dream of an Energy Aura Tanker goes unfulfilled. 

 

And let's not even think about a Ninjitsu Tanker--"Surprise! What are you going to do? Hit me?"

[Triumphant]

My favorite armor sets are SR, WP, and Rad.  I'm not a super efficient builder, but they all work very well for me.  I also like to have at least one unplugged hole/weakness to make play more challenging and my character more interesting (even superman could be wrecked by magic or kryptonite).

 

SR= IT's a cinch to cap defenses and Ialmost never get hit.  When I DO get hit, it hurts like a b***h, though.

 

WP= Decent protection against everything but not as good at avoiding faceplants as the other two.  HOWEVER, your T9, properly slotted with recharge reduction allows you to  faceplant and get right back up again, every 2 minutes or so, which makes me feel unconquerable.  This is batman or captain america getting beaten down by a super powered foe, then pulling themselves to their feet again, battered and bloody, because they simply WILL NOT QUIT.   It's one of the few T9's that actually sell the entire set to me.

 

Rad= Taking little to no damage from most attacks (Except cold and psi, which I have holes in- cold more so than psi) and being able to heal damage on those attacks every minute gives him amazing resiliency and staying power.

 

Almost any armor set can be fun, though.  It sort of comes down to 1) Personal preference/play style and 2) How focused you are on maximizing performance/efficiency in all areas.

[Bill Z Bubba]

18 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Yeah, I should have said my problem is really more about the secondary and not entirely about the performance.

 

Then I throw to you a tank I've found very interesting: Dark Armor/Stone Melee with Fold Space. It's an absolutely fantastic tanktroller. Yea, it's also a slow starter... really slow. But in the end it's just plain ol' fun as hell. You will absolutely want an alpha that buffs end reduction. I went with vigor core but cardiac would work, too.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Triumphant said:

Rad= Taking little to no damage from most attacks (Except cold and psi, which I have holes in- cold more so than psi) and being able to heal damage on those attacks every minute gives him amazing resiliency and staying power.

What I love about Rad is that one hole (Psi) is easily patched and it has a nice bunch of debuff resists (slow/recharge, end drain and recovery) to build off of. Since Resist sets tend to get hit with debuffs more having a base to build towards making you mostly immune to them is great.

 

Plus two proc bomb attacks which love a primary which can take Forced Feedbacks (MA in my case). Rad Therapy & Ground Zero, how I wish I could 10 slot you. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Carnifax

[ZemX]

14 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Since Resist sets tend to get hit with debuffs more having a base to build towards making you mostly immune to them is great.

 

This was a lightbulb moment for me when I finally got this about my Rad tanker.  I gave up trying to avoid debuffs with fragile non-DDR defense and sought stacking more debuff resist from IOs and pools.  2-slot Winters, Tactics, Focused Acc.  Tactics even got me some Confuse protection, which Rad also lacks, so I could stop doing the bidding of succubi (sorry ladies!) 

 

Sooo much better now.

[Werner]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:08 AM, Hjarki said:

there's no such thing as a 'cascading resistance failure'.

I'd argue that there is such a thing, even if I haven't heard it called that, or even the mechanics mentioned often, probably because resistance debuffs are so rare compared to defense debuffs. 

 

Edit: It seems I'm wrong and the below is not how it works for resistance. Instead, resistance debuffs are resisted at the original, undebuffed resistance, and thus there's really no such thing as cascading resistance failure, as you said. My apologies.

 

Let's say you have 45% defense and no resistance and 20 even level minions beating on you with an attack that does 100 points of damage and a 5% defense debuff. In the first round, one minion hits for 100 points of damage and you're at 40% defense. In the second round, two hit for 200 points of damage and you're at 30% defense. In the third round, four hit for 400 points of damage and you're at 10% defense. With every round of attacks, you're taking twice as much damage due to cascading defense failure.

 

Now let's say you instead have 90% resistance and no defense and 10 enemies beating on you with an attack that does 100 points of damage and a 10% resistance debuff. Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs, so in the first round, all 10 hit for a raw 1000 points of damage and 100% resistance debuff, but both are resisted 90%, so you actually take 100 points of damage and a 10% debuff, and now you're at 80% resistance. Next round they all hit again, but now you take 200 points of damage and a 20% debuff, and you end up at 60% resistance. Next round they all hit again, but now you take 400 points of damage and a 40% debuff, and you're at 20% resistance. With every round of attacks, you're taking twice as much damage due to cascading resistance failure.

 

A little oversimplified, but that's the idea.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 8:22 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

A shield/ma tank would also be quite good.

Quite! I love mine, but I'll admit that on a good endgame build, the extra defense from Storm Kick is mostly a waste most of the time, and you'd be better off with some other secondary, either one with heals and/or endurance for survivability, or more damage since you'll probably have enough survivability regardless. I have to wonder if I'd have more fun most of the time with Shield/Energy. Might have to try it sometime. But I do love kicking things in the face, and loving what you do for a living is great! 😉 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Werner