What's the "Best" Secondary for an Empath?

[00Troy00]

Please notice that I put "best," in quotes, because I realize it's a matter of opinion. 

 

I really want to make my emp the moat badass emp he can be, ans I would appreciate any and all opinions..

 

Please accept my sincere thanks in advance.

Edited November 2, 2021 by 00Troy00

[Mopery]

Dark Blast will give you some soft controls, make you and your team harder to hit, and comes with another self-heal.

Sonic will allow your team to do more damage via -Resists.

Beam Rifle will give you some -Regen in Disintegrate.

Water will give you AOE Damage, and another self-heal.

 

Pretty much everything else is just a different flavor, but won't add much worth mentioning.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mopery
Brain Fart

[Doomguide2005]

     Well I've now seen two /Beam and a /Fire do an ITF at +4/×8 solo.  Both /Beam were Master of, no inspirations used runs.  I believe all Empathy/** could do it.  Beam, Sonic, Dark, Rad, Energy and Water probably are the strongest for solo work.  I had an older Emp/Sonic/Power build that could fight lvl 54 3 boss mobs of Rikti in "the RWZ challenge" to a draw (no pets, no breaking aggro, and at least 3 bosses in mob).  They couldn't kill her, she couldn't defeat them.  They'd invariably mez her and regen too much health before she'd start attacking again.  But that was also an i13 pre Incarnate project I never got around to upgrading.  I've no doubt if I added incarnate abilities (and otherwise upgraded the build) she'd take them down these days.  Today she'd have Incarnate abilities boosting damage and a nuke that wouldn't crash her end plus an Incarnate nuke.  

     My own Empath badasses were /Dark, /Rad, 3 /Sonic, /Assault Rifle and /Fire.  All were "GM" builds except the alt #2 build on the one /Sonic mentioned above.  And technically the Emp/AR was a redside character and 2 of them were on Pinnacle and not in Green Machine but the builds were GM compliant.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthought, missed /Energy and its wonderful kb/kd and FF procs

[DreadShinobi]

For an empath defender I would pick something that can take advantage of a forcefeedback recharge proc because empathy key powers - Fort, AB, and RAs are all very long recharges and benefit greatly from all the global recharge you can fit in to your build. 

 

A couple notes about several sets that can use forcefeedback - 

Water Blast - Water Burst, Geyser. You don't really need the self heal from dehydrate here but water is still great even if it didn't have a self heal. Water Burst is very spammable, basically fireball with a knockdown. 

Psychic Blast - Psionic Tornado - this thing has a 20 ft radius and it is actually really effective mitigation, especially being a knockup, rather than KD. The set can also bring some utility damage to fights with enemy godmodes like marauder, bobcat, minotaur/cyclops. Psinado + Psyscream aoe opener debuffs enemy recharge by 37.5% + 62.5% ! 100% recharge isn't always helpful but it can be in extended fights which means you heal less and blast more and your regen buffs are more effective.

Sonic Attack - Shockwave - Sonic resist debuffing makes it a solid choice always, but shockwave doesn't apply -res and lowers your stack potential. Not a good choice for forcefeedback generation. 

 

[Voltak]

7 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

Please notice that I put "best," in quotes, because I realize it's a matter of opinion. 

 

I really want to make my emp the moat badass emp he can be, ans I would appreciate any and all opinions..

 

Please accept my sincere thanks in advance.

The truth -  there is NO best secondary for Empathy Defenders.   This is especially the case for Defenders. 

That's the bottom line. 
What secondary you choose will be based on what effects you want, and also how many powers from your secondary you want or don't want.
 Some secondaries only have a few good ones, other secondaries have more good ones. 
 

You can have a badass empathy defender with any of the secondaries. 

I have very good reasons to claim my empathy defender is badass, but he will be badass no mater what secondary I would have gone with. 
That's just the fact. 
What will make an empathy defender badass is the overall build, the defensive numbers, the recharge ( very crucial here ), hit points and so on. 

Those numbers will say if you have a badass empathy defender, NOT the secondary. 

 

[Maelwys]

Personally I'm a big fan of Ice Blast these days. It's one of the few Blast sets that doesn't require any recharge slotting to make a decent attack chain, and all its abilities take at least three procs (Ranged, Slow, -ToHit).

It can stack high Mag holds, and a lot of -recharge debuffs, so it's also quite survivable.

It's not wonderful at AOE outside of the T9, but when that goes off it's a spawn melter.

 

Objectively, I suspect that Sonic's stacking -res debuffs will be "better" most of the time. But I'd still not discount the performance of proc-heavy blast sets on a defender. Lower base damage = better relative proc damage after all!

 

[Edit: Voltak makes an excellent point. Secondary probably doesn't matter as much as the rest of the build. For an Empath I'd much rather have loads of +recharge, Hasten, Power Boost and a bad Secondary than just have the "best" Secondary!!]

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Maelwys

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, Voltak said:

The truth -  there is NO best secondary for Empathy Defenders.   This is especially the case for Defenders.

     I think in part this stems from the fact the primary, Empathy, is strictly a buffing set.  There are no debuffs to stack up secondary effects with the debuff effects in the secondary.  The closest thing that way really is the ability to use the FF proc to boost recharge found in primarily Water and Energy.

    The biggest thing for an Empath is a ready group of Allies to buff as only the two Auras buff themselves.

 

[kelika2]

jusburself

[Voltak]

13 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     I think in part this stems from the fact the primary, Empathy, is strictly a buffing set.  There are no debuffs to stack up secondary effects with the debuff effects in the secondary.  The closest thing that way really is the ability to use the FF proc to boost recharge found in primarily Water and Energy.

    The biggest thing for an Empath is a ready group of Allies to buff as only the two Auras buff themselves.

 

Beam Rifle also has knocks. 

But even without the FF procs, the empath can be as best as they might come with any secondary. 

The most important factor is the final defensive numbers and your hit points or health points. 

But I think the OP should just know that when it comes to empathy, that is a set that does awesome regardless of secondary. 

[Without_Pause]

I think I could only really look at underperforming sets versus the best ones. I think AR and Archery are lacking due to damage type. Electric Blast is a bit lacking in terms of useful debuff paired with lesser damage. +4 AVs can shrug off a number of debuffs, but end drain is essentially worthless against them. For an Emp, SC is a PBAoE with a long animation.

[Doomguide2005]

     +4 AV's shrug just about all debuffs.  87% AV Resistance plus 48% Purple Patch mods makes all resistable debuffs flinch.  Even huge debuffs like Benumb and Lingering Rad are seriously impaired.   The "regular" +4 mobs only have the purple patch going for them and the drain and recovery debuffs will smart.  But yes it's a very yes/no sort of debuff either it's crippling or it's hardly noticed. 

[Nemu]

Y'all having a philosophical discussion here that absolutely no one cares about.

 

Let me answer the question straight up

 

Assault Rifle CUZ GUNZ. You can be NURSE GUN BABE or something like that.

 

Not that you will use any attacks though. Cuz you wanna be the best Healer you can be.

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

NURSE GUN BABE: Level 50 Natural Defender
Primary Power Set: Empathy
Secondary Power Set: Assault Rifle
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Healing Aura -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(3), Heal-I(3), Heal-I(5), Heal-I(5), Heal-I(7)
Level 1: Burst -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Heal Other -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(15), Heal-I(15), Heal-I(17)
Level 4: Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Resurrect -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 8: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), EndRdx-I(34), EndRdx-I(34), EndRdx-I(36), EndRdx-I(36), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 12: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Grant Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Aid Other -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(17), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(21), Heal-I(21)
Level 18: Recovery Aura -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Aid Self -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(23), Heal-I(23), Heal-I(25), Heal-I(25), Heal-I(27)
Level 22: Field Medic -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 24: Resuscitate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 26: Regeneration Aura -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 28: Group Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Phase Shift -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 32: Adrenalin Boost -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Shark Skin -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 38: Afterburner -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Summon Coralax -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(47), EndRdx-I(47), EndRdx-I(48), EndRdx-I(48), EndRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(49), EndRdx-I(49), EndRdx-I(50), EndRdx-I(50), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(40), Mrc-Rcvry+(40), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(40), Pnc-Heal/+End(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(37), EndMod-I(37), EndMod-I(37), EndMod-I(39), EndMod-I(39)
------------

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Steps to success

 

Step 1 - Log in

Step 2 - Pick this dude

Step 3 - Hold down control key and click healing aura (MOST IMPORTANT STEP!!!)

Step 4 - Toggle on Fly, Hover, Evasive maneuvers, Stealth, Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics.

Step 5 - Find tank

Step 6 - Right click on tank and select "follow" (SECOND MOST IMPORTANT STEP!!!)

Step 7 - That's it, you can't be bet at this point.

[SeraphimKensai]

My main on live was an EMP/energy Defender. Empathy is great and all but energy blast kinda meh. If I had to remake an empathy defender my secondary choice would come down to the following:

1. Fire, it has DoT's so from a greedy standpoint I could use for Kill Stealing my friends.
2. Sonic, you have -res debuffs, which can be helpful for a team especially considering defender buff/Debuff modifiers.
3. Rad Blast, -Def in attacks and can slot Achilles, irradiated can take a fury proc, and annihilation procs in neutron Bomb. So you can stack up to three sources of -res on a target plus all the -Def. Electron haze also can take a force feedback proc plus gives you more mitigation. I personally like rad blast like 10x more than Sonic as well.
4. Dark Blast, obviously THD with defender buff/Debuff values is huge. Dark pit kinda sucks is the worst power in the set, life drain although great for dealing damage, the heal isn't really needed as an empath. Also you have 3 cones to work with. As such I usually use this set with other pairings.

 

Realistically I'd probably go /rad.

[Glacier Peak]

To add on to what Seraphim said, Water Blast and Dark Blast allow for lot of +Healing IO set bonuses and Ice Blast allow for a lot of +Range IO set bonuses, if you're trying to refine or maximize your healing powers.

[Glacier Peak]

15 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     +4 AV's shrug just about all debuffs.  87% AV Resistance plus 48% Purple Patch mods makes all resistable debuffs flinch.  Even huge debuffs like Benumb and Lingering Rad are seriously impaired.   The "regular" +4 mobs only have the purple patch going for them and the drain and recovery debuffs will smart.  But yes it's a very yes/no sort of debuff either it's crippling or it's hardly noticed. 

You're not wrong about the debuff resistance curve and the purple patch. There are work arounds though! Players can pop the Vanguard Medal accolade power and Power Boost to get more bang for their debuff. If a player is relying on their debuffs to work against +4, they will utilize those types of added +Special powers, among other methods to defeat the +4 AV types.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

 those types of added +Special powers, among other methods to defeat the +4 AV types.

Clarion's Radial is a great piece for that puzzle as well if the person can live with 90 seconds as opposed to 120, and doesn't need barrier or ageless. I like stacking clarion with power boost/power buildup depending on the toon.

 

Also works great for Empathy's Recovery/Regen Aura. Otherwise I haven't tried it but I bet you could get Irradiate on a Defender depending on slotting to get up to 50-75% defense Debuff with power boost, before Debuff resistance unfortunately I don't have mids available at work so I am just guessing as I'm pretty sure the base def Debuff on irradiate is like ~21% before any enhancements.

Edited November 3, 2021 by SeraphimKensai

[Glacier Peak]

39 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Clarion's Radial is a great piece for that puzzle as well if the person can live with 90 seconds as opposed to 120, and doesn't need barrier or ageless. I like stacking clarion with power boost/power buildup depending on the toon.

 

Also works great for Empathy's Recovery/Regen Aura. Otherwise I haven't tried it but I bet you could get Irradiate on a Defender depending on slotting to get up to 5-75% defense Debuff with power boost, before Debuff resistance unfortunately I don't have mids available at work so I am just guessing as I'm pretty sure the base def Debuff on irradiate is like ~21% before any enhancements.

Yeah it is a pretty dramatic boost (using those types of powers) to the two heals; particularly Absorb Pain, where a single cast can heal for nearly 2,000 health points (while using those +special powers) and the damage to the caster doesn't scale, so players can use/abuse(?) that to their advantage.

[SeraphimKensai]

28 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah it is a pretty dramatic boost (using those types of powers) to the two heals; particularly Absorb Pain, where a single cast can heal for nearly 2,000 health points (while using those +special powers) and the damage to the caster doesn't scale, so players can use/abuse(?) that to their advantage.

That but power boosted fortitude really takes the cake as well.

[Glacier Peak]

34 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

That but power boosted fortitude really takes the cake as well.

Oh yeah! But Fortitude is neck and neck with Adrenaline Boost in my book. Fort comes back faster, so you can spread the love for the team - but that power boosted AB is soooo nice. I usually throw it on any other buffers on the team, or the high DPS folks if they are absent. 

[Psyonico]

31 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Oh yeah! But Fortitude is neck and neck with Adrenaline Boost in my book. Fort comes back faster, so you can spread the love for the team - but that power boosted AB is soooo nice. I usually throw it on any other buffers on the team, or the high DPS folks if they are absent. 

I *may* be wrong, but I don't think Power Boost affects AB or either RA, because Power Boost doesn't affect Regen/Recovery.

[Glacier Peak]

28 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I *may* be wrong, but I don't think Power Boost affects AB or either RA, because Power Boost doesn't affect Regen/Recovery.

Off the top of my head, I know that AB ignores multiple casts, meaning it doesn't stack if casted by the same user, but allows multiple stacks from others. The recharge portion of the buff isn't enhanceable or affected by other powers and the movement resistance isn't either. The regen and recovery aren't constrained by those conditions as far as I know though. I'm just not sure how by much it can be boosted. I'm speaking specifically about the Defender version of Empathy. 

 

Edit: Oh, but I meant to add, that I didn't know Power Boost doesn't affect regen/recov values. Has that always been the case?

Edited November 3, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Psyonico]

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.power_mastery.power_build_up

 

It doesn't say that it affects Regen or Recovery in COD. I don't think it ever has affected it.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.power_mastery.power_build_up

 

It doesn't say that it affects Regen or Recovery in COD. I don't think it ever has affected it.

Yeah it would be news to me.  On the otherhand on most of my Emps theses days I don't even seek to boost Endmod for recovery.  It's a 200% base.  You'd really need to work at it to burn through that much recovery 

 

Good news Irradiate is a base 37.5 defdebuff.  Bad news is by itself you could boost that by a factor of ten and AV Resistance plus Purple Patch will turn that into something like a 25% debuff.  Much better return on PB'ing either Fortitude's or Tactics To Hit Buff if you're trying to beat some insane defense value.

 

Edit:  As for RegenAura boosting it not a thing far as I know, though it has some room for the boost at least.  Same for AB.  But there's no much room outside of Scrappers (Stalkers) perhaps.  Together assuming both are enhanced you are looking at around 1600% regen.  Most support hit the hard cap at 2000%.  Brutes and Tankers cap at 2500%, then Scrappers and Stalkers cap at 3000%.  Which after you add the rest of their base regen etc. doesn't leave much room for boosting especially for support types

Edited November 4, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Added info

[Maelwys]

I can confirm that Power Boost has never buffed Regen/Recovery.
It does however buff raw +Endurance/+Healing; and (far more importantly) the +Defence granted via Fortitude.

My slotting for Adrelaline Boost back in the day on live was 2x level 50 Rech IOs and a level 50 Rech/EndMod IO. That was enough to *just* put its +Recovery over 1000%, meaning that it offset the crash from a Blaster's T9 Nuke.

These days I'd either stick two +5 level 50 Rech IOs in it, or a 5x/6x healing set for extra set bonus +recharge.

[Doomguide2005]

8 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I can confirm that Power Boost has never buffed Regen/Recovery.
It does however buff raw +Endurance/+Healing; and (far more importantly) the +Defence granted via Fortitude.

My slotting for Adrelaline Boost back in the day on live was 2x level 50 Rech IOs and a level 50 Rech/EndMod IO. That was enough to *just* put its +Recovery over 1000%, meaning that it offset the crash from a Blaster's T9 Nuke.

These days I'd either stick two +5 level 50 Rech IOs in it, or a 5x/6x healing set for extra set bonus +recharge.

Agree with AB slotting.  Typically my Emps go with either 5 Doctored Wounds or Panacea (budget/spend freely).  I like all the global recharge I can get.