Now that ASF went live, what do you think of it?

[Nitekilla]

16 hours ago, Linea said:

Solo Vicious ASF  (Difficulty 3 of 5) Complete!

That was not at all easy. 

 

It all went south on the last pool of the last mission. Anything that could have gone wrong, went wrong.  But I managed to pull it out of the ditch in the end, but only barely.  Took about an hour to clear my way to Midas, and Midas himself took about 30m.   However, in-between there I had a total failure and let him regen to full health.  I also had several minor finger fumbles and failures.  All this extended the time needed exponentially.  90m should be doable, 120m definitely.  I spent closer to 3h, and it was entirely my own fault.

 

I typically play about one mission a day, and you can assume 60-90m per mission (Vicious).   However, I had to redo at least 3.  1 Due to connection issues, and 2 due to my own failure and/or lack of time available.   So while It should be doable in well less than 10h, I spent 16+ over about a week of real-time.  This one is a new record for Longest Solo TF for me.

 

No chance I'll be able to get past RippleSurge on Ruthless (Difficulty 4), and I've so far not been able to Duo Past the first AV on Relentless (Difficulty 5) at all.

 

Also, given I soloed it on Vicious, I'm downgrading it's difficulty rating by one tier.  For Vicious to be rated 7, I would have needed to fail it and not get past the first few missions.

 

  Hide contents

 

This is impressive !  Is this an EM/EA stalker ?

[Zhym]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:28 AM, Lazarillo said:

Compare it to the old ITF, for example, where the story is much simpler and told through visuals and through actions.  You learn about the Nictus involvement through the mountain of ambushes in the first mission, and the 5th Column causing trouble when you turn that corner for the first time and get that maiden-run-magical "wait, what!?" when you see the mech. 

I agree that ITF's story is a little more suited to team play than ASF is, but I've played ITF I don't know how many times now and this is still all I know of the plot:

1. Imperious needs our help! (I know this because his name is on the TF).
2. A bunch of scantily clad Sybils need to be rescued!  (Despite their profuse expressions of gratitude, my heterosexual male character just lets them...run off?)  And Sister Solaris needs to get to the altar (and we've only just met)!
3. Okay, now there's something with Kheldians and cyst crystals that we need to destroy and the traitors don't want us to destroy for...reasons? 
4. There's a whole mess of Cimeroran traitors that need to be walloped, including lots of cyclopes and minotaurs. 
5. Hey!  The 5th Column are involved in this somehow with a BIG DAMN MECH (that, alas, never gets out of its scaffolding).  And, hey, Romulus Augustus is in this too, and—Requiem?
6. We beat Romulus Augustus down, and he has failed.  But wait!  He is...NICTUS!  The champions will be a feast laid before him!  (I know this because of the cutscene.  Also...no; no they will not.  Romulus will go down.  Frequently, in some runs.)

I guess I do know a lot about ITF, but I wouldn't say I've really grasped the story except that it has something to do with the 5th Column building a big damn mech and buffing Romulus with nictus power-ups.  Which, to be fair, is still probably fairly close to the full plot, which is a lot simpler than ASF's story.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Zhym

[Lazarillo]

3 hours ago, Zhym said:

I guess I do know a lot about ITF, but I wouldn't say I've really grasped the story except that it has something to do with the 5th Column building a big damn mech and buffing Romulus with nictus power-ups.  Which, to be fair, is still probably fairly close to the full plot, which is a lot simpler than ASF's story.

Yeah, simplicity is a big part of why ITF works, don't get me wrong.  That's kind of my point, in a way. There are stories that are "right" for TFs, and stories that better for solo arcs.  You can also have it the other way around (see the Maria Jenkins "A Hero's Epic" arc, which is the opposite...a solo-able arc that would actually be better TF-oriented storytelling).  And certainly, for the ITF, there's some context behind things that explains more...but it's in solo-friendly story arcs!   But I think moves in "phases" pretty well.

1. You're told to "Consult the Oracle" in the first main mission directive.  Okay, you get there, and because nothing goes as planned (of course!) bad guys have taken her and her followers hostage.  So you save them and what happens?  A bunch of angry Nictus come at you saying you can't speak of them.  So now you know they're connected.
2. Building off the first mission, the Nictus obviously failed to stop you from learning about them, so because you know about them because of the future they tried to prevent you from learning about, you can know you need to go after them.
3. You take down the Nictus and now Romulus is vulnerable, so you can attack him.  Oh, whoops, the 5th are here, too! (Speaking of visual storytelling, that reveal is still one of the game's coolest moments as you round that corner...okay, yeah, I gushed about that already).  It's a little weird but if you have the context from the aforementioned story arcs, it makes some twisted amount of sense.
4. The fourth mission is probably the worst transition, since it's not clear that Romulus "gets away" at the end of the 3rd mission, granted (this actually gives me an idea on how they could make it even better...give Rommy a unique death animation where he gets teleported away by a Warshade-style Shadow Recall power!), and you now go confront him and his Nictus backer directly, who, thanks to the cutscene, you know have merged into one.

While it certainly hopes to know about Requiem's connection to the Nictus and that "Romulus" was the name of the first human/Nictus hybrid (both from the Path Into Darkness arc, FWIW), you don't need that, really, to follow the story in terms of what you're doing and why, to my mind. 

[BurtHutt]

13 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Yeah, simplicity is a big part of why ITF works, don't get me wrong.  That's kind of my point, in a way. There are stories that are "right" for TFs, and stories that better for solo arcs.  You can also have it the other way around (see the Maria Jenkins "A Hero's Epic" arc, which is the opposite...a solo-able arc that would actually be better TF-oriented storytelling).  And certainly, for the ITF, there's some context behind things that explains more...but it's in solo-friendly story arcs!   But I think moves in "phases" pretty well.

1. You're told to "Consult the Oracle" in the first main mission directive.  Okay, you get there, and because nothing goes as planned (of course!) bad guys have taken her and her followers hostage.  So you save them and what happens?  A bunch of angry Nictus come at you saying you can't speak of them.  So now you know they're connected.
2. Building off the first mission, the Nictus obviously failed to stop you from learning about them, so because you know about them because of the future they tried to prevent you from learning about, you can know you need to go after them.
3. You take down the Nictus and now Romulus is vulnerable, so you can attack him.  Oh, whoops, the 5th are here, too! (Speaking of visual storytelling, that reveal is still one of the game's coolest moments as you round that corner...okay, yeah, I gushed about that already).  It's a little weird but if you have the context from the aforementioned story arcs, it makes some twisted amount of sense.
4. The fourth mission is probably the worst transition, since it's not clear that Romulus "gets away" at the end of the 3rd mission, granted (this actually gives me an idea on how they could make it even better...give Rommy a unique death animation where he gets teleported away by a Warshade-style Shadow Recall power!), and you now go confront him and his Nictus backer directly, who, thanks to the cutscene, you know have merged into one.

While it certainly hopes to know about Requiem's connection to the Nictus and that "Romulus" was the name of the first human/Nictus hybrid (both from the Path Into Darkness arc, FWIW), you don't need that, really, to follow the story in terms of what you're doing and why, to my mind. 

 

I also feel keeping it straight forward and streamline is the best policy for games. The ITF is great and they got a lot of things right with it. Even if you don't read all of the text, you have an idea what is going on. It doesn't feel that way for the Aeon SF.

 

Aeon SF is neat but you lose some immersion when running it on a team - you don't have time to read everything and not sure WTF is going on. It's too bad cuz it's obvious a lot of work went into it. Hopefully the design improves for future content. 

[A Cat]

I am seconding the "tourist mode" difficulty for lower difficulty/rewards. I just solo'd the lowest difficulty yesterday and there's tons of hilarious dialogue that I missed in my team run before, and this let's me spend quality time with mai waifu Becky. But not everyone is able to solo AV's. If you could EB them that might be enough for tourist mode. 

[Linea]

tldr:  This is why I don't like DPS Checks / AVs when solo.  I would indeed love a Solo-Mode that downgraded the AVs to EBs, even if it reduced rewards by /10x.

 

Ruthless ASF test Run (EnM/EnA 801 Built Scrapper):

I drug along a couple of tanks so things wouldn't be so slow, just for testing.

• To-hit was fine, no real issues other than: When I was debuffed once, and When too many vengeances stacked, and/or pulling two groups.

• I can solo one Ruthless group and ONLY ONE Ruthless Difficulty group at a time, and only when fully T9 armored.  When my armors are down I can only take about 1/3 of a group.
• Humorously, when fully armored, I was slightly more durable than the tanks.  At least till my T9s dropped, then I was Instant-One-Shot Fodder.  The tanks were much more reliable overall.
• T9 Armor Up, Crash, Wait or Die, Repeat.
• So those 90m missions just became 3 hours.

• Duoing the AV runs 7m no lore, 5m with lore
• Lots of math follows
• Assuming the tank did damage, this translates to 33m to solo the AV
• Assuming the tank did NOT do damage, this translates to 14m to solo the AV
• I can run 7m, Crash/Candy 30s to toggle back up, 3m, Crash/Candy 30s to toggle back up, 3m ... so 15m tops, using a full tray of candy
• It would take a perfect run to kill this AV, the first and easiest AV of the TF.
• If any of the AVs have higher resists, regen, or hp than the Cauldron AV, then there's no way in @#$% I'm pulling it off.  At the very least Apex is twice as hard.
• The tank was doing at least some damage, so the answer is somewhere between 15m and 33m.

• 99.9% likely I can't get past the first AV.  I can indeed clear to the AV, but not past it.
• And even if I DID get this AV.  Its the easiest AV by far.  I'd never make it past the next one.

(ok, fine, demonic being an accolade, and recharged in 10m, I might could chain that to 18m using a full tray of candy.  However, there is still the issue of dps loss while toggling up. Each crash costs a total of 1m, as you need at least 30s to gain back the 30s loss, and it's likely worse than that.  So out of 18m I lose 4 or 5 due to crashes.  That puts us right back at, this is probably not happening.)

Edited December 16, 2021 by Linea

[Zhym]

14 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Yeah, simplicity is a big part of why ITF works, don't get me wrong.  That's kind of my point, in a way. There are stories that are "right" for TFs, and stories that better for solo arcs.  You can also have it the other way around (see the Maria Jenkins "A Hero's Epic" arc, which is the opposite...a solo-able arc that would actually be better TF-oriented storytelling).  And certainly, for the ITF, there's some context behind things that explains more...but it's in solo-friendly story arcs!   But I think moves in "phases" pretty well.

 

...

 

While it certainly hopes to know about Requiem's connection to the Nictus and that "Romulus" was the name of the first human/Nictus hybrid (both from the Path Into Darkness arc, FWIW), you don't need that, really, to follow the story in terms of what you're doing and why, to my mind. 

The parts I never really got about ITF until you explained them are the bits about being told to "Consult the Oracle" (because that's part of the dialogue that Imperious has with only the TF leader?) and why they're involved.  I honestly had no idea until now, for example, that the reason we take out the cyst crystals is to de-power Romulus.  But you're right that none of those nuances are really necessary to get (or enjoy) the gist of the story.

 

BTW, I think one of the best TFs in terms to laying out the story for the whole team is the Miss Liberty TF.  Here's what I know about the plot in that one:

1. Lord Recluse is building something that will buff him to an even greater power level. 
2. Dr. Aeon has a "brilliant" plan that will trap the TF in a future where Lord Recluse has conquered the world.  Unfortunately for Aeon, he really needs to record his gloating victory monologues in advance.
3. There's some stuff about the thorn tree and having to beat Dr. Aeon again, but it's not important to the plot.  Mostly it's a chance to beat down some B-roll archvillains.
4. Despite the heroes' efforts, including defeating his top lieutenants, Lord Recluse's Web is completed!  Bow down before his POWER!  Or, y'know, take down two or three of the towers, put the hurt on Recluse, and save the world (again).  Whichever.

The plot is straightforward, and most of it is conveyed through cutscenes.  I mean, we all know where Arbiter Sands goes to get a decent cup of coffee, right?

Edited December 16, 2021 by Zhym

[tidge]

Now that I've PUGged a few more times on the ASF (still no badge runs) I still like this SF, but it definitely feels like there is too much different content. I love the maps and challenges... but I find myself wishing I could have divided these up. I'm reminded of the inter-locking patron arcs... it would be a slog to have to do all of them in a row.

[Nemu]

All these posts about how survivable you need to be and how to solo this SF really highlights the lost art of teamwork.

 

It's very telling and not a far stretch to what I see in game. People join teams but they don't play as a team. The quality of those that partake in these challenges is immensely disappointing when you start cranking up the difficulty. Here are a list of things I see people doing/not doing:

 

Lack of awareness, like they are playing an FPS, they don't see what's going on around them.

Staying in one spot when they should be moving

Prioritizing targets

Using powers inappropriately even when told the mechanic (players using holds on Midas while he's out of the lava)

Not using powers when they should (blasters you know a lot of your T1s in the secondaries are immobs and you can use that to help immob Midas in the lava?)

Lack of prioritization when it comes to support - the liquefy clone gets dropped alot and that tends to mez squishies a lot, people with CM/clarity/ID/etc... but don't use them. 

Severely delayed reactions - this one is for the anti-healer crowd. People take hits and those hits hurt, and it's common for me to see the person that got hit stay in the red even if we have heals on the team. 

 

I see this as much on PuGs with inexperienced players as well as those in the speed run channels I belong to. The former may not know any better, the latter however, is much more ingrained in the "me myself and I" mentality and I find that even worse than people that just don't know any better. IOs and incarnates and other shortcuts have allowed these people to skip the fundamentals right into and thinking they are hot shit with their softcap defenses/hardcap resists and proc monster attacks.

 

I'm not saying you need to get on discord/voice chat when you run challenging content, that's not necessary. It just takes awareness and knowing/performing the role needed of you to succeed.

[Albion]

2 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

 

I also feel keeping it straight forward and streamline is the best policy for games. The ITF is great and they got a lot of things right with it. Even if you don't read all of the text, you have an idea what is going on. It doesn't feel that way for the Aeon SF.

 

Aeon SF is neat but you lose some immersion when running it on a team - you don't have time to read everything and not sure WTF is going on. It's too bad cuz it's obvious a lot of work went into it. Hopefully the design improves for future content. 

A bit of a perspective correction here:  we do have the time to read everything, we just choose not to in order to rush the run, be it either by our own will or because the rest of the team is rushing. Adapting a SF structure or story to cater to the choice of steamrolling content or hurrying up because we have limited time to play is not a wise move on my personal opinion, as it drags all other personal choices of players towards that one, as it is now, one can decide to go slow, to deepen into the lore and scenery, or to go fast, free choice for everyone.

[BurtHutt]

15 minutes ago, Albion said:

A bit of a perspective correction here:  we do have the time to read everything, we just choose not to in order to rush the run, be it either by our own will or because the rest of the team is rushing. Adapting a SF structure or story to cater to the choice of steamrolling content or hurrying up because we have limited time to play is not a wise move on my personal opinion, as it drags all other personal choices of players towards that one, as it is now, one can decide to go slow, to deepen into the lore and scenery, or to go fast, free choice for everyone.

A perspective correction? Hmmmmmm is it though. The facts are there is a lot of reading to it and it takes time to read it. Yes, we can opt to stop and read it all. Absolutely. Is this good game design? I don't know....my preference is to make content a bit more streamlined to most of the players (speed,casual or slow paced) can take it all in. Telling those who are on fast paced teams: "Too bad, so sad", isn't the best route IMO.

 

Anyway, great work on the SF but just not for me. 

[Lazarillo]

50 minutes ago, Albion said:

 we do have the time to read everything

This is more less incorrect with regards to the ASF as a matter of the facts, because a not-insignificant amount of dialogue is tied to talking to NPCs who despawn/change their dialogue after the first person speaks to them.  Also, demanding your team stop to take time for you to read is at least as much an infringement upon the playstyle of others as them moving on before you finish reading.  And this doesn't even get into scheduling conflicts or outright emergencies drawing people away from the game.  In a story arc, you can put it on pause at pretty much any time.  You might have to replay part of a mission but you don't lose out on any story just because you can't do things in one sitting.  TFs, not so much.  Or would you propose that TFs now not advance missions if a team member quits or DCs?  That would certainly ensure that people didn't rush content that their teammates might want to see, too.

 

TFs should have TF-oriented delivery.  Story arcs should have story-oriented delivery.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Lazarillo

[Mezmera]

16 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

A perspective correction? Hmmmmmm is it though. The facts are there is a lot of reading to it and it takes time to read it. Yes, we can opt to stop and read it all. Absolutely. Is this good game design? I don't know....my preference is to make content a bit more streamlined to most of the players (speed,casual or slow paced) can take it all in. Telling those who are on fast paced teams: "Too bad, so sad", isn't the best route IMO.

 

Anyway, great work on the SF but just not for me. 

 

What's stopping people from organizing one themselves and announcing they are looking to run a casual run on lower settings to get a feel for the story?  This is new for a lot of people so most will understand the want for a casual run to immerse yourself in all of this new stuff. 

 

I've been organizing Vicious runs getting a lot of first timers and people that only ran it on lowest settings.  If people were so interested in the new story they'd have done it by now so this seems like a cop out to say it goes by in too much of a blur to understand what is going on when all you have to do is put out that disclaimer to start and its more on the lead to give them the grand tour.  When I have some new people to this I make it a point to not go Incandescencing people around at every turn so they can get a feel for how this one runs.  

 

We haven't had any new endgame content since the game shut down so I'm not going to begrudge them the want to go a little over the top with setting up more story.  Also being able to incorporate new harder challenges for those that want more impactful things to do with their favorite high level character in their full capacity while also still leaving the floor as easy as ever is quite a good accomplishment which I'm looking forward to more of.  

 

They are just starting with more stuff to do, sometimes the setup can be a little long winded but it really doesn't seem like much more than what you'd have to ascertain from LRSF and STF when they were introduced.  This is the beginning of more endgame stuff to do, I'd bet they've got shorter stuff in the works as well for those wanting Apex style runs.

[Lazarillo]

2 hours ago, Zhym said:

BTW, I think one of the best TFs in terms to laying out the story for the whole team is the Miss Liberty TF.  Here's what I know about the plot in that one:

Yeah, Mizz Libby (and the villainous counterpart in the LRSF) both do this TF-style storytelling reasonably well also.  Not quite as well as the ITF, in my opinion, but close enough to keep them engaging.

[Coyotedancer]

Since it's more than apparent now that I'm in no way part of the target audience for the thing, I'll keep my feedback short and to the point.

 

The mechanics are interesting.

What I saw of the dialogue was well done.

My 7-player PUG team did just fine. But even on the lowest difficulty, I doubt that my usual little family SG team of four would ever be able to complete it. Some of that would be down to skill and experience levels, but-

The big issue is that it really is just too f-ing long.

 

This beast would have made a *great* mission arc that you could take on in pieces, as others have said. As a SF, though, it tried my patience. My nephews and their mom would never be able to pass that level of Attention Span challenge.

 

Honestly, having seen it now just to be able to say I did, I doubt I'll ever run it again,

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[A Cat]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

My 7-player PUG team did just fine. But even on the lowest difficulty, I doubt that my usual little family SG team of four would ever be able to complete it. Some of that would be down to skill and experience levels, but-

You may be able to pull it off as long as you can take down an AV. On the lowest difficulty, there are no "bonus powers", which IMO are the biggest thing that adds to the difficulty. That means, no repel, no golden nuke of death, no vengeance, etc. If not, and if you're on Everlasting, I can help you out if our schedules work out, and I'm sure others can as well. I'm @A Cat

[Coyotedancer]

27 minutes ago, A Cat said:

You may be able to pull it off as long as you can take down an AV. On the lowest difficulty, there are no "bonus powers", which IMO are the biggest thing that adds to the difficulty. That means, no repel, no golden nuke of death, no vengeance, etc. If not, and if you're on Everlasting, I can help you out if our schedules work out, and I'm sure others can as well. I'm @A Cat

 

As I said, it's not just a difficulty issue. On the base difficulty, I'm pretty sure we could take the AVs given enough time... It's the length of the thing that's the killer. It was almost more than I was willing to stick with, and they're much less patient than I am. They just don't have the attention span for that kind of slog. I'd be hearing "Are we almost done yet?" a third of the way through. Probably even sooner if the death toll was particularly high. 😝

 

Like I said, as a mission arc we could do in chunks? It would have been fine... But it's too much all in one go. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:13 PM, Faultline said:

The secret battle reward never required no deaths, we're not that evil.

 

For the record, having to jump through that many hoops for something that should have just been added to bases for free rather sucks.

[Faultline]

34 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

For the record, having to jump through that many hoops for something that should have just been added to bases for free rather sucks.

 

Adding a base item that can be destroyed by players and then will disappear from the base until the base mapserver restarts is a terrible idea.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Faultline said:

Adding a base item that can be destroyed by players and then will disappear from the base until the base mapserver restarts is a terrible idea.

 

That makes perfect sense. I'll rephrase: For the record, having to jump through that many hoops for something that should have just been added for free so we could avoid harassment when testing our DPS in an open zone rather sucks.

[Mezmera]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That makes perfect sense. I'll rephrase: For the record, having to jump through that many hoops for something that should have just been added for free so we could avoid harassment when testing our DPS in an open zone rather sucks.

 

And I'd like all accolade abilities instantly accessible.  At least they didn't make it some must have ability that'll boost your abilities in game.  Which I'd MUCH rather they tied into this fight since it'd take much less time to do than most other accolades but I understand how gated it may be to others, which is why there's not even a badge tied to it.  

 

If you want this pet let me know I'm on Excelsior running Relentless runs and that fight quite a lot.  Just talk to EV.  Though it'd be preferred if your character can withstand the punishment and can bring a t4 Barrier.  

Edited December 17, 2021 by Mezmera

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

And I'd like all accolade abilities instantly accessible.  At least they didn't make it some must have ability that'll boost your abilities in game.  Which I'd MUCH rather they tied into this fight since it'd take much less time to do than most other accolades but I understand how gated it may be to others.  

 

If you want this pet let me know I'm on Excelsior running Relentless runs and that fight quite a lot.  Just talk to EV.  Though it'd be preferred if your character can withstand the punishment and can bring a t4 Barrier.  

 

I already have it on BZB tank. I have no desire to run through the DASF again just to get it on the other however many 50s I have. I also have NO desire for accolade buffs to be accessible without putting in the "work." How long, exactly, do you think I've been requesting a gorram in-game DPS tool that didn't involve me wailing on frelling pylons? I'll give you a hint: I've been playing since issue 1.

 

Edit: I appreciate the offer but it's not necessary.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I already have it on BZB tank. I have no desire to run through the DASF again just to get it on the other however many 50s I have. I also have NO desire for accolade buffs to be accessible without putting in the "work." How long, exactly, do you think I've been requesting a gorram in-game DPS tool that didn't involve me wailing on frelling pylons? I'll give you a hint: I've been playing since issue 1.

 

And how's this fight not "putting in the work"? 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

And how's this fight not "putting in the work"? 

 

You're talking about two different things. One concerns actual buffs to your character, the other is nothing but a tool to calculate your DPS.

[A Cat]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

As I said, it's not just a difficulty issue. On the base difficulty, I'm pretty sure we could take the AVs given enough time... It's the length of the thing that's the killer. It was almost more than I was willing to stick with, and they're much less patient than I am. They just don't have the attention span for that kind of slog. I'd be hearing "Are we almost done yet?" a third of the way through. Probably even sooner if the death toll was particularly high. 😝

 

Like I said, as a mission arc we could do in chunks? It would have been fine... But it's too much all in one go. 

I think you can actually. If you all log and do not quit team or quit tf, you should all be able to pick up from wherever you were last. What helps here is that you are playing with an SG, that is family to boot! Schedule coordination would actually be possible.