Tank or Broot...?

[The_Warpact]

So was thinking or rolling a EM/Inv or a EM/SD, but, should it be a tank or a broot?

 

I love the I just cannot die aspect of a tank but, does the dmg hold up to what a broot can do?

I dont want to make a tank that can keep on rolling but takes a year to kill a boss.

 

Thought?

[Troo]

At this point.. if you wanna primarily AoE vs max targets while teaming we could/should lean Tank.

However there are power set considerations depending on that first attack selection and target cap exception.

 

But if you are soloing, Broot.

It is, in my opinion, still worth trading that overall number of targets and some of the survive-ability for general effectiveness. Others will rightfully disagree.

[Omega Force]

Shield should be tank, because of Fury's interaction with AAO.  (Not sure how it works with Shield Charge's pseudo pet.)

[Saikochoro]

I’m honestly not trying to be a hater, but I will share my opinion. Lately, I have had a hard time even wanting to make a brute over a tanker or a scrapper. I used to feel like they got the best of both worlds (high damage and high sustain). But honestly I feel the opposite now. I feel like they get the worst of both worlds in terms of modifiers. 
 

Shield Defense is a prime example. It is the best armor set in the game in my opinion followed closely by energy aura for those archetypes that can take it. It is absolutely amazing on tankers and extremely good on scrappers as well. 
 

Tankers get the fat armor modifiers that make softcapping defense a breeze and allows for reaching high resist numbers. Plus they get one of, if not, the best ATOs in the game (resist proc). It easily stacks twice and is not uncommon at all to have 3 stacks. My shield tankers have overcapped s/l resists with 2 stacks, and capped e/n resists with 3 stacks. F/c are also in the 70s I believe (I will need to double check). Plus they get good mileage out of AAO. 
 

Scrappers don’t get the fat armor modifiers, but they do get the fat damage modifiers. So they get the most out of AAO and shield charge. They can also softcap fairly easily and build up resists for s/l/e/n in the mid 50s to mid 60s. And it doesn’t feel bad because they are capped at 75% anyway. 
 

Enter brutes. They don’t get the fat armor modifiers or the fat damage modifiers. So even though they have the 90% resist caps it takes them a lot of effort to even attempt reaching those caps. Especially since they don’t have the fancy resist proc ATO. They also get less out of shield charge and AAO. 
 

It’s not that shield is bad on brutes. I still think it’s the best armor in the game. It’s just comparatively worse than on tankers or scrappers. 
 

So that said, I would definitely choose tanker over brute on the choices in the OP. I honestly have only just made a new brute and I made one that is impossible to make on either a scrapper or a tanker so I don’t have the comparative disadvantage. Super strength/energy aura. 
 

Im not saying brutes are bad. I just have a hard time wanting to make one with the way tankers are nowadays. And if I want damage I will just go scrapper or better yet stalker. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Saikochoro

[The_Warpact]

8 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

I’m honestly not trying to be a hater, but I will share my opinion. Lately, I have had a hard time even wanting to make a brute over a tanker or a scrapper. I used to feel like they got the best of both worlds (high damage and high sustain). But honestly I feel the opposite now. I feel like they get the worst of both worlds in terms of modifiers. 
 

Shield Defense is a prime example. It is the best armor set in the game in my opinion followed closely by energy aura for those archetypes that can take it. It is absolutely amazing on tankers and extremely good on scrappers as well. 
 

Tankers get the fat armor modifiers that make softcapping defense a breeze and allows for reaching high resist numbers. Plus they get one of, if not, the best ATOs in the game (resist proc). It easily stacks twice and is not uncommon at all to have 3 stacks. My shield tankers have overcapped s/l resists with 2 stacks, and capped e/n resists with 3 stacks. F/c are also in the 70s I believe (I will need to double check). Plus they get good mileage out of AAO. 
 

Scrappers don’t get the fat armor modifiers, but they do get the fat damage modifiers. So they get the most out of AAO and shield charge. They can also softcap fairly easily and build up resists for s/l/e/n in the mid 50s to mid 60s. And it doesn’t feel bad because they are capped at 75% anyway. 
 

Enter brutes. They don’t get the fat armor modifiers or the fat damage modifiers. So even though they have the 90% resist caps it takes them a lot of effort to even attempt reaching those caps. Especially since they don’t have the fancy resist proc ATO. They also get less out of shield charge and AAO. 
 

It’s not that shield is bad on brutes. I still think it’s the best armor in the game. It’s just comparatively worse than on tankers or scrappers. 
 

So that said, I would definitely choose tanker over brute on the choices in the OP. I honestly have only just made a new brute and I made one that is impossible to make on either a scrapper or a tanker so I don’t have the comparative disadvantage. Super strength/energy aura. 
 

Im not saying brutes are bad. I just have a hard time wanting to make one with the way tankers are nowadays. And if I want damage I will just go scrapper or better yet stalker. 

I had basically the same conversation with a VGmate last night when I rolled my SD/EM tanker. He hates tanks to no end, I explained to him while a broot is fun, it doesn't have the it can't be killed aspect in higher difficulty situations without a ton of min/max which leads to making sacrifices in the build somewhere. 

In addition like @Omega Force said AAO doesn't react well with fury. While I have never personally tested it, it would explain some issues I had on a Elec/SD broot that I eventually deleted because scrapper/stalker were far superior.

Tanks have gotten very close to broots in the dmg department and I find that the only broots I have left are my farmers. While the AT is fun, I think with changes made to other melee ATs make them less desirable now. I do agree with @Troo that on a tank they are better on a team, and broots are very fun solo. But, once you get to the upper levels broots lose their luster.

This is my opinion.

[Sovera]

9 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

I’m honestly not trying to be a hater, but I will share my opinion. Lately, I have had a hard time even wanting to make a brute over a tanker or a scrapper. I used to feel like they got the best of both worlds (high damage and high sustain). But honestly I feel the opposite now. I feel like they get the worst of both worlds in terms of modifiers. 
 

Shield Defense is a prime example. It is the best armor set in the game in my opinion followed closely by energy aura for those archetypes that can take it. It is absolutely amazing on tankers and extremely good on scrappers as well. 
 

Tankers get the fat armor modifiers that make softcapping defense a breeze and allows for reaching high resist numbers. Plus they get one of, if not, the best ATOs in the game (resist proc). It easily stacks twice and is not uncommon at all to have 3 stacks. My shield tankers have overcapped s/l resists with 2 stacks, and capped e/n resists with 3 stacks. F/c are also in the 70s I believe (I will need to double check). Plus they get good mileage out of AAO. 
 

Scrappers don’t get the fat armor modifiers, but they do get the fat damage modifiers. So they get the most out of AAO and shield charge. They can also softcap fairly easily and build up resists for s/l/e/n in the mid 50s to mid 60s. And it doesn’t feel bad because they are capped at 75% anyway. 
 

Enter brutes. They don’t get the fat armor modifiers or the fat damage modifiers. So even though they have the 90% resist caps it takes them a lot of effort to even attempt reaching those caps. Especially since they don’t have the fancy resist proc ATO. They also get less out of shield charge and AAO. 
 

It’s not that shield is bad on brutes. I still think it’s the best armor in the game. It’s just comparatively worse than on tankers or scrappers. 
 

So that said, I would definitely choose tanker over brute on the choices in the OP. I honestly have only just made a new brute and I made one that is impossible to make on either a scrapper or a tanker so I don’t have the comparative disadvantage. Super strength/energy aura. 
 

Im not saying brutes are bad. I just have a hard time wanting to make one with the way tankers are nowadays. And if I want damage I will just go scrapper or better yet stalker. 

 

I feel the reverse. I'm at a point where I look at my Tankers and go hmmmmmmmmmm. I'm a big proponent of 'it only needs enough survival to survive, anything more is useless' and Brutes fill that role.

 

Killing faster is a form of survival as well.

 

While I still hear about how a Brute only has a 10% damage damage advantage on a Tanker this is not how it feels when playing the game. I do insist in 'feels' because gameplay is a bit different from hitting a pylon for X minutes. Bursting enemies down before they retaliate is not something a pylon test will show.

 

Eating the occasional inspiration to survive a slump or using Barrier as a panic button works for both ATs.

 

 

Then I have my Stone/Martial Arts who is night unkillable with 60%+ defenses and 76%+ resists across the board, -and- 3.4k HP instead of 2.5k, but I'm just whittling enemies down even with Brimstone's help.

[Saikochoro]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I feel the reverse. I'm at a point where I look at my Tankers and go hmmmmmmmmmm. I'm a big proponent of 'it only needs enough survival to survive, anything more is useless' and Brutes fill that role.

 

Killing faster is a form of survival as well.

 

While I still hear about how a Brute only has a 10% damage damage advantage on a Tanker this is not how it feels when playing the game. I do insist in 'feels' because gameplay is a bit different from hitting a pylon for X minutes. Bursting enemies down before they retaliate is not something a pylon test will show.

 

Eating the occasional inspiration to survive a slump or using Barrier as a panic button works for both ATs.

 

 

Then I have my Stone/Martial Arts who is night unkillable with 60%+ defenses and 76%+ resists across the board, -and- 3.4k HP instead of 2.5k, but I'm just whittling enemies down even with Brimstone's help.

I completely understand this point of view and have no issue with those that hold that opinion.  I might actually share it if scrappers didn’t exist. But the reason I have trouble making brutes is because both tankers and scrappers exist. 
 

I feel that scrappers have enough survivability for many things and they do better damage than brutes. That’s why I said at the end that if I wanted damage I’d just for scrappers or stalkers because those can also be built quite tough and have better damage as well. 
 

I wish brutes got mid point armor modifiers. Heck I’d take even just midpoint resistance modifiers so they could reach higher resistance numbers easier. Still wouldn’t approach tankers thanks to their ATO. But would be better than scrappers and so their would be a big enough difference in survivability to take the lower damage. 

[The_Warpact]

So on my end why I favor tanks is because, I am on small teams 3-4 max running higher difficulty. Hence I need that, "hey bad guys pay attention to me" and not the fenders or trollers.

If I was on larger teams spread out then I would make killing a priority and go broot or scrapper. 

[Sovera]

10 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I completely understand this point of view and have no issue with those that hold that opinion.  I might actually share it if scrappers didn’t exist. But the reason I have trouble making brutes is because both tankers and scrappers exist. 
 

I feel that scrappers have enough survivability for many things and they do better damage than brutes. That’s why I said at the end that if I wanted damage I’d just for scrappers or stalkers because those can also be built quite tough and have better damage as well. 
 

I wish brutes got mid point armor modifiers. Heck I’d take even just midpoint resistance modifiers so they could reach higher resistance numbers easier. Still wouldn’t approach tankers thanks to their ATO. But would be better than scrappers and so their would be a big enough difference in survivability to take the lower damage. 

 

Only half Scrappers get agro auras, which puts me back on the Brute camp myself.

[Without_Pause]

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

While I have never personally tested it, it would explain some issues I had on a Elec/SD broot that I eventually deleted because scrapper/stalker were far superior.

 

That build has two pets which aren't impacted by Fury as where said pets don't break Hide for Stalkers. Add in Elec getting a better ST attach chain on Stalkers, and yeah, Elec/shield is essentially worst on a Brute.

[Erratic1]

31 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I feel that scrappers have enough survivability for many things and they do better damage than brutes. That’s why I said at the end that if I wanted damage I’d just for scrappers or stalkers because those can also be built quite tough and have better damage as well. 

 

Scrappers do better damage than brutes but the only time I feel their survival is comparable (ignoring easy content) is when looking at Defense reliant builds because the trick is the same: Don't get hit. For any build which is based on resistance or is hybrid Brute survives better. And as noted, Brutes NEVER have troubles with runners whereas I am regularly treated to complaints in the forums from scrapper complaining about runners.

 

Moreover, a brute is not there to be just a damage dealer, its purpose is to be a damage dealer that survives. 

 

Most assuredly there are very survivable Scrappers and Stalkers. Add too I have seen some utterly stunning Tankers when it comes to dishing out damage. But if you have to take Defense sets on the Scrappers/Stalkers or build very specifically on the Tankers in order to make a damage juggernaut either way you have to confine yourself in ways you do not with a Brute because damage and survivability come baked in.

 

Case in point, I have not played Invulnerability since my beloved DM/Inv scrapper, Vae Victis, made in the first month of release back on Live. I am contemplating StJ/Inv or Staff/Inv. Right there Scrapper and Stalker are out of the running despite Invulnerability cheating into defense via Invincibility because in my experience Invulnerability's heal on its own is not going to get me to the levels of survivability having gone with a full defense secondary would when faced with 75% capped resistances. Both Brute and Tanker can get to 90% with higher health pools. So why not Tanker? Brute plays smoother on the way up with less endurance starvation to get the kill when playing solo. Add too solo spawns are not 20+ and everything you are fighting will be close enough to be hit by area attacks. Love my Rad/Elec Tanker, but I know who disposes of groups quicker between him and my SS/Bio Brute.

 

But that is not to try to convince you your view is wrong so much as to explain why I still very much find Brutes have a place in the game...well, at least my game. YMMV.

[Redletter]

So, In my experience? I gotta say Tanker.

 

Like, Im no expert in numbers or whatever. Im only saying this as a person who made a character three different times, as a Scrapper, Tanker, and Brute to see which was the funnest to PLAY.

 

The scrapper lost my interest by level 18. MAYBE they're super cool when you have the class enhancements and tons and tons and tons of inf for super expensive enhancement sets. Maybe theyre like, turbo bonkers crazy and can suplex Recluse into a coma. I didnt have the patience or resources to get them there, and since you didnt even ask this is a moot point.

 

The real winners were the Tanker and Brute build. I asked on excelsior which one was "better" and got no consensus, which doesnt help my baby brain so I just made both.

 

Brute was hard to love until the A N G Y bar filled up and my damage started spiking. Getting them to 32, mostly doing random teams and early game content, wasnt too hard and when I had friends they were kinda fun. My problem was that, in teams, Scrappers and Stalkers out-damaged me, so the appeal of the brute kinda petered off because, like, I dont really feel cool when I DONT have a place on a team. When you have like, 8 people doing something, how you stand out and feel cool comes down to what YOURE doing in this group - it's why Dominators are my favorite class because CC is ALWAYS something youre doing and it stands out, and people appreciate it but you ALSO get damage so you can fight, AND you get your DOMINATOR BUTTON for when you get mass CC'd by some Circle fuckbois or by Malta or by Nemesis or whatever...

 

But then you have the tanker. Tanker's problem is he has baby damage.

 

But... that's kinda his only problem. He just has real baby damage... and you can fix baby damage with Incarnate Muscle Milk, or BIG. RED. BUTTON inspirations, or buffs from friends. Or buffs from yourself because that Shield user damage buff is ACTUALLY the tits. You also solve baby damage problems by having friends who have tonka damage. A tanker stands out on a team too, since you AUTOMATICALLY pull agro. Just HIT some idiot and him, and his immediate family want to throw hands with YOU - JUST you. You have a LOT of ability to control the agro of a fight by staggering your attacks, or attacking different groups, using the actual TAUNT power, and all kinds of stuff which makes you not only really useful, but there's situations where you, as the tanker, are the LAST idiot standing. That is a LOT of power, because you can then say "ill lead them away so you can all use your wakies" and then you just Iron Giant your ass backwards, taunting idiots till the WOULD BE team wipe into a small speed bump.

 

Im speaking from an Elec/Elec tanker, which is ALL damage RES. That's not even like, a PHENOMINAL armor set. YOU want to use the REAL good sets. I'd say make that SD/EM Tanker. Youd get the Defense to help you NOT get hit, youd get the RES to help mitigate the damage that somehow gets through, a damage buff to help mitigate your baby damage problems before you get your alpha slot, and youd have a really strong offensive set that does quite a bit to mitigate your lack of damage by being just REALLY strong up front.

 

To put it in perspective, I have and En/En brute, and a Mace/Shield tanker. The brute is sitting at 20 something and logged off in the atlas police station for 43 days. The mace boi is 36 and was just the other day bashing carnie brains in.

 

Maybe Im bias. But while I do think Brutes have the damge tankers wish they had, when I play a tanker I already make peace with my lack of damage. Meanwhile, when I play a brute, im always surprised I when I cant do the things my tanker does.

[Erratic1]

45 minutes ago, Redletter said:

To put it in perspective, I have and En/En brute, and a Mace/Shield tanker. The brute is sitting at 20 something and logged off in the atlas police station for 43 days. The mace boi is 36 and was just the other day bashing carnie brains in.

 

Maybe Im bias. But while I do think Brutes have the damge tankers wish they had, when I play a tanker I already make peace with my lack of damage. Meanwhile, when I play a brute, im always surprised I when I cant do the things my tanker does.

 

Brutes take more time (their protection sets are secondary versus those sets being primary for Tankers) and effort (the protections sets do not provide values as high as what Tankers get) to make tough. But they assuredly can be made to shrug off tons of incoming attacks. And on balance Fury means they are turning out respectable damage from the start.

 

For Shield, like has been said upthread go Tanker. If you're pairing Energy Melee and Invulnerability...either can work.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I love my claws/sr scrapper when I'm alone.

 

I love my sr/claws tank when I'm proving just how freaking awesome SR is on a tank. Remember this equation for later: 6.7*3 + 13 + 60 = 93.1

 

I love my claws/sr brute when I know I'm going to be on a team that will buff my damres and damage.

 

A brute at the caps is superior to both a tank and a scrapper.

A brute is almost never at the caps.

A brute solo does significantly less damage than a scrapper and has significantly less mitigation than a tank. It does barely more damage than the tank and has barely more mitigation than the scrapper.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba