Give all Tanker Primaries Knockback Resistance

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

What exactly is overtuned about Rad armor lol?

 

Is it the offensive potential along with its res/regen?

 

[EDIT] An Aside, I think removing the initial attack of Burn from FA while increasing the burn patch duration and adding a HoT would mesh well...maybe replacing the damage (supplement the damage loss by adding it to the DoT patch) with a KU (Backdraft!!) instead. Defensively, it'd still be weaker, offensively it's not king but functionally (sans min/maxer) it's actually just as good :]

As with Bio and probably Shield, they decided to make sets that have very generous offensive tools but for whatever reason decided not to seriously counterbalance that with lesser mitigation as was done with Fire. So you’ve got a standard invincible tanker set but it throws deadly instant mini-nukes every ~12-15 seconds and its T9 buffs damage.

 

I will continue to enjoy its obscene power, but if the devs choose to tweak it down a peg, I for one couldn’t fault their logic.

[aethereal]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

As with Bio and probably Shield, they decided to make sets that have very generous offensive tools but for whatever reason decided not to seriously counterbalance that with lesser mitigation as was done with Fire. So you’ve got a standard invincible tanker set but it throws deadly instant mini-nukes every ~12-15 seconds and its T9 buffs damage.

 

I will continue to enjoy its obscene power, but if the devs choose to tweak it down a peg, I for one couldn’t fault their logic.

 

Bio enjoys a defense and resistance debuff when it gets its offensive boost, in addition to having no DDR in a set that relies on defense for its mainline damage mitigation to non-S/L damage.  It is noticeably squishier than other armor sets.

 

The environment right now is that it's relatively easy to build strong damage mitigation through sets and power pools, so you can generally build Bio to acceptable levels of toughness, but there are definitely a variety of situations where my Ninjutsu character, for example, is much more durable than my Bio character.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Bio enjoys a defense and resistance debuff when it gets its offensive boost, in addition to having no DDR in a set that relies on defense for its mainline damage mitigation to non-S/L damage.  It is noticeably squishier than other armor sets.

 

The environment right now is that it's relatively easy to build strong damage mitigation through sets and power pools, so you can generally build Bio to acceptable levels of toughness, but there are definitely a variety of situations where my Ninjutsu character, for example, is much more durable than my Bio character.

I know Bio pretends to balance itself but those debuffs don’t seem to do the trick. Sure they make you actually use your clicks to be invincible but that feels like the extent of it.

[aethereal]

52 minutes ago, arcane said:

I know Bio pretends to balance itself but those debuffs don’t seem to do the trick. Sure they make you actually use your clicks to be invincible but that feels like the extent of it.

 

So, for example on Praetorian Clockworks, I generally have to be below +4/x8 on Bio, at least until considerable incarnate, while on Ninjutsu I don't do anything special.  They debuff regen and defense and use energy attacks, so in my experience Bio goes, "Click shield oh shit it's gone, click heal okay now I'm dead."

 

It seems uncontroversial to me that Bio is significantly less tough than, say, Invul, SR, Rad, Energy Aura, and, on brutes/tanks, Electric Armor.  It's just that we're currently in a game in which blasters can build tough enough to do +4/x8, and of course bio armor is tougher than blasters.

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, aethereal said:

So, for example on Praetorian Clockworks, I generally have to be below +4/x8 on Bio, at least until considerable incarnate, while on Ninjutsu I don't do anything special.  They debuff regen and defense and use energy attacks, so in my experience Bio goes, "Click shield oh shit it's gone, click heal okay now I'm dead."

 

It seems uncontroversial to me that Bio is significantly less tough than, say, Invul, SR, Rad, Energy Aura, and, on brutes/tanks, Electric Armor.  It's just that we're currently in a game in which blasters can build tough enough to do +4/x8, and of course bio armor is tougher than blasters.

 

But incarnate powers, rune of protection, shadow meld and set bonuses are a thing. So while that Nin user might have an easier time on the way up, in the end, all that +damage and -resist coming from Bio means that it ends up with enough mitigation to survive while killing enemies far faster. And, I know, I know, I almost never use it, but Defensive mode also exists for tough spots. Nin, SR, Nrg are all great sets but have to be because their kill speed is so much slower.

 

I will, however, also note that none of my Bio users can solo a max diff ITF. They'd be fine against the AVs but the Khels rip them to shreds thanks to all the -recharge and -defense. Another edit: In my defense, it's because I don't build my Bios for that. I build them for slaughter. More damage *should* mean less mitigation. Yea, I'm side-eyeing YOU, Shield Defense. And all tanks.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[aethereal]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But incarnate powers, rune of protection, shadow meld and set bonuses are a thing. So while that Nin user might have an easier time on the way up, in the end, all that +damage and -resist coming from Bio means that it ends up with enough mitigation to survive while killing enemies far faster. And, I know, I know, I almost never use it, but Defensive mode also exists for tough spots. Nin, SR, Nrg are all great sets but have to be because their kill speed is so much slower.

 

I will, however, also note that none of my Bio users can solo a max diff ITF. They'd be fine against the AVs but the Khels rip them to shreds thanks to all the -recharge and -defense.

 

Honestly, I think people get very wrapped up in kill speed differences that don't seem to me to be a big deal in play.  Like, yes, if you're farming and are all about optimizing playtime/reward, you should care about this.  If you're in it for pylon speeds, totally.  But when I compare my /bio characters in ordinary mission play with other armor sets, it doesn't seem like a particularly big deal to me.  I like bio, I enjoy soloing AVs, and it's a good set for that.

 

Other than that, we're saying the same thing.  Bio is significantly squishier than other armor sets, but you have to seek out particularly dangerous voluntary challenges to have that really matter.  That's just the state of the game.  Bio is plenty survivable.  Fiery Aura is plenty survivable, and blasters are plenty survivable.  I don't think that it's a good idea to make there be no offense/defense tradeoff among the armor sets, but as long as there is some offense/defense tradeoff, people are going to complain that the most offensively-oriented sets are "best."

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

people are going to complain that the most offensively-oriented sets are "best."

 

Human nature. We rank things. I've lately been forcing myself to play characters that I know are going to disappoint me regardless of how I build them. Luckily, now living in a state with legal pot, I'm finding that I *am* capable (only when high) to turn off my number crunching brain and just watch the show which makes me able to enjoy these characters anyway.

 

Course, soon as I sober up I'm right back to omgwtfbbq this sucks so bad why the hell am I dying at +1/x3? (Again, side-eyeing my Bane SoA at the moment but I could respec him right now to fix some of his squishiness.)

 

Beyond all that, when it comes to game balance, the sets that cause me ill are the ones too far out of whack from the mid-line (shield being too good, regen being too bad) or, more specifically, powers that are either just plain wrong (based on the equations they should be built on,) or that are actually broken and allow for performance way outside their design, (see burn and irradiated ground and how they utilize procs.)

[arcane]

The fact that I can’t remember ever turning on Defensive Mode should definitely tell you something. Bio is very slightly squishy in extreme circumstances... *when intentionally played in its squish mode 24/7*. 

[Marbing]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

The fact that I can’t remember ever turning on Defensive Mode should definitely tell you something. Bio is very slightly squishy in extreme circumstances... *when intentionally played in its squish mode 24/7*. 

I was about to type a response but basically this. I have a /bio stalker that is 95% of the time in offensive adaptation and she almost NEVER dies. Even solo. Its a stupid strong set even in its "squishy" mode.

[aethereal]

The reason that people don't use defensive mode is that defensive mode is bad, not that offensive mode is so great.  Anything that will kill you in offensive mode is going to also kill you in defensive mode -- a little slower, but your ability to kill them first drops so much that they have plenty of time for it.

 

This might be different if defensive mode closed major holes in bio, like giving it DDR as someone was suggesting.

Edited February 12, 2022 by aethereal

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

The reason that people don't use defensive mode is that defensive mode is bad, not that offensive mode is so great.  Anything that will kill you in offensive mode is going to also kill you in defensive mode -- a little slower, but your ability to kill them first drops so much that they have plenty of time for it.

Well I have no evidence one way or the other because squish mode is so non-squish 😉 

 

Anyway I definitely agree it’s a tad more squish than Rad. Who knows which needs nerfs more. I don’t mind if they stay as is, but, if they stay as is, people need to understand they are still extremes and not the correct standard-bearers for balance. At the end of the day, you should not be bringing sets up to the level of the best one, because that is how you guarantee harmful levels of power creep. You have to focus balance on the averages not the top tiers.
 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by arcane

[Marbing]

30 minutes ago, arcane said:

Well I have no evidence one way or the other because squish mode is so non-squish 😉 

 

Anyway I definitely agree it’s a tad more squish than Rad. Who knows which needs nerfs more. I don’t mind if they stay as is, but, if they stay as is, people need to understand they are still extremes and not the correct standard-bearers for balance. At the end of the day, you should not be bringing sets up to the level of the best one, because that is how you guarantee harmful levels of power creep. You have to focus balance on the averages not the top tiers.
 

 

I agree. But not every suggestion has the intention to bring a sub par set up to the level of a top tier set. I think that gets lost here sometimes... 

 

Sometimes a top tier set is mentioned just to show how big the gap is, not that the gap needs to be entirely closed. They just want that gap shortened in some way. 

This is especially true for powersets that fill the same niche. For example: Fiery Aura has large offensive output, it is said that because of that it sacrifices some survival.  What other sets out there have large offensive output? Hmm.. *mentions top tier set*.

Response: You can't mention the top tier set as an example, we all know that it is top tier and don't want power creep, nothing needs to change, k thx bai. 
 

 

Suggestion: Anyone out there have the raw (base) numbers for every armor set that can share them in a post? I mean no enhancements just all toggles on and show its defense, resistance, regen, status protection, and endurance drain. Then show the total DPA of whatever in that set does damage. Account for heal clickies and what not. For comparison. If not, I may put this together and show you all... 

[Haijinx]

18 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Well, duh, it's got a T9 that doesn't suck.

 

 

Fire Armor has this Insane Nuke for a T9 ... High High Base damage, Mag 4 Stun with a 25 Radius.  

 

I think you could get it down to about 100ish Seconds for a recharge, which isn't too bad.  

 

There is just that ONE downside.  

[Marbing]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

There is just that ONE downside.  

Lol yeah, if you’re using RotP… you have failed. 😂

Edited February 12, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[kiramon]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:57 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

 ad infinitum (like in GW2) that it's a problem for me.

 

 

Gajeebus is that the worst thing ever friggen every single thing all the time they throw a knock down every.single.thing. NO. FUN. CAN. BE. HAD.

 

adr;j;ajnfdasdf;a

 

The only thing less fun is trying to buy on the AH in CoH on the weekend with people buying out everything full-stock under 5m and relisting at 10-15m 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by kiramon

[Bill Z Bubba]

55 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Lol yeah, if you’re using RotP… you have failed. 😂

 

I dunno, man. Self-Destruct + RotP is always pretty funny to see.

[Brutal Justice]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

Fire Armor has this Insane Nuke for a T9 ... High High Base damage, Mag 4 Stun with a 25 Radius.  

 

I think you could get it down to about 100ish Seconds for a recharge, which isn't too bad.  

 

There is just that ONE downside.  

I use it often on my rad/fire sentinel.  Works great!   I jump in, hit atomic blast, die because everything is still alive after the stun, and nuke again with RotP.  

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I use it often on my rad/fire sentinel.  Works great!   I jump in, hit atomic blast, die because everything is still alive after the stun, and nuke again with RotP.  

 

Its this sort of Out of the Box thinking that will take you far. 

[Naraka]

33 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I use it often on my rad/fire sentinel.  Works great!   I jump in, hit atomic blast, die because everything is still alive after the stun, and nuke again with RotP.  

 

Frankly, there is a tragic gap in self-destructive powers.  Being able to blow yourself up so the enemy doesn't get the benefit of killing you is a common trope. Bypassing debt and death counter would just be a bonus.  I guess giving allies a bonus or applying an effect to enemies could be another.

 

If it were usable (i.e. not a long cast time + long recharge), I could certainly think of a pool to fit it in and it would be a great fit for team utility (who doesn't like Vengeance?).

[Brutal Justice]

28 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Frankly, there is a tragic gap in self-destructive powers.

I agree.  I wanted energy transfer to have a full critical and also full crit your health in return.  Instead they made it heal... lame.  

[MTeague]

12 hours ago, arcane said:

As with Bio and probably Shield, they decided to make sets that have very generous offensive tools but for whatever reason decided not to seriously counterbalance that with lesser mitigation as was done with Fire. So you’ve got a standard invincible tanker set but it throws deadly instant mini-nukes every ~12-15 seconds and its T9 buffs damage.

 

Bigger-Better-Faster syndrome. Happens in a lot of online games. When a new class is added, especially if it's part of an expansion or DLC, it tends to be wildly OP to give people a reason to spend money on it. Powersets that were introduced in the age of microtransactions are like this. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

38 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Powersets that were introduced in the age of microtransactions are like this. 

 

All the more reason to fix them.

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

All the more reason to fix them.

Well, it looks like they did that to Titan Weapons. I'm sure they'll eventually get around to nerfing fixing the rest of the Pay-to-Win powersets.

[macskull]

On 2/11/2022 at 4:13 PM, arcane said:

“Balance pass” accompanying Nerf-like bug fix sounds like buffs to me. But what do I know and more importantly what does @macskull know?

 

And yes Fiery Aura is supposed to be weaker defense but, if the bug fix really does obliterate Burn, it wouldn’t be much more offensive than Rad Armor at that point. But Rad Armor could easily be considered overtuned too. Who knows.

Hi, it's me. The numbers from my post you referenced were referring to Burn without any damage procs slotted. I generally refrain from talking about Burn because I'm going to be big sadge when it finally gets nerfed and it's already got a giant target painted on its back, but the power itself is bugged (even without procs) and the interactions with procs is just a side effect of that bug. It's been two years or something but I recall the conversation when the nerf-via-bugfix got pulled being something along the lines of "the power is bugged but we are going to fix it when we do a balance pass of the set as a whole."

 

On 2/11/2022 at 4:57 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

And if they do nerf Burn such that three quarters of all characters on Homecoming (or whatever the number is) aren't Firey Aura Brutes, then maybe adding some Knockback protection to Firey Aura would make sense. Until then... ok so Lord Recluse is the 1 enemy in the entire game that you should pick another tank for.

Fiery Aura is probably going to remain the standard farming set even if Burn does get nerfed. In non-farm content Fiery Aura can be surprisingly tanky when built right. Hell, my Rad/Fire farmer does decently in normal content because of all the incidental AoE defense I got while chasing F/C defense bonuses, but the set does require some investment and sets like Rad and Bio tend to be better out of the box.

[ScarySai]

On 2/10/2022 at 10:45 AM, arcane said:

Every set is carefully balanced.

Not really, some sets are just older and were built during a time where the balance concerns were different and the game died before they could get a proper update. New sets have all these things because the developers knew that the game had changed.

 

This is why stalkers, blasters and scrappers (with the help of that lovely ATO) are on top of the world right now. They got their big and important updates. Armor sets still have some pretty glaring disparities between them. Dark and invuln have held up pretty well, but the former really shouldn't have the amount of status holes it does with the amount of work you need to put into it. Meanwhile, rad armor comes packaged with a pretty hefty supply of slow/knock protection, to the point where you don't need to put a single zephyr into a rad build.