Are Defenders the equivalent of support Tanks?

[kelika2]

On 2/26/2022 at 4:46 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

math

Now take all that math, factor in that 99% of the games fights last seconds and endgame targets get lore pets dropped on them

 

Dear OP, just reroll into Corrs.  I started that last year and been happier

1.) stronger overall

2.) enhancements were already there and just needed swapping

3.) it was nice and time consuming which is a plus for me

4.) the game wont stop if a defender joins, but you know a corr would be more efficient

 

defenders are an antiquated AT.  it started with controllers noticing its only 25% buff/debuff difference on top of having controls and here came the villains with their higher base damage and scourges or cadre of pets

 

To anyone who is about to freak out:

I know you had some good memories on your emp def pre issue 9

I know you had some good memories on your dark def pre issue 6

I know you had some good memories of the all radiation supergroup on Freedom

memories are nice but thats all they are

 

Come join us in the future.

[arcane]

On 2/26/2022 at 3:01 PM, Ankhammon said:

My idea is that we take the existing powers and just increase the max targets and perhaps their area of effects. Same values but more targets affected.

An example of this can be seen in Elec. Blast, the current pbaoe for short circuit is 20 range and 16 target max for both ATs. What if it hit 24 targets on a defender and increased the range to like 24? I'm making up those values, but it would help shore up the damage issue overall but leave the defender with a different feel. It also potentially helps the team a bit more.

 

 

Considering that the community is already divided 50/50 on whether or not it’s worth playing a [Corruptor/Defender] at all when you can play the other, [Defender/Corruptor], it would be highly inappropriate to give one a massive buff but not the other.

 

And, also, considering how potent support classes already are, it would be highly inappropriate to give either a massive buff. Sure, someone might cite solo clear times vs Scrappers here to say Defenders suck, but the most obviously team-oriented AT in the game does not need a blanket buff for the sake of soloability when they already are top tier when teaming. Incremental change or hard no, sorry. 

 

The equivalent change to Tanks occurred when we were far closer to consensus that there was little reason to play Tankers when you could play Brutes. Sure, you have people that will claim the same for Corruptors vs Defenders, but it’s nowhere close to consensus - wait 5 minutes and someone will post the exact opposite opinion.

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[arcane]

8 hours ago, Hjarki said:

No, it's assuming you're playing the actual content in the game.

 

The fact that you can set up an AE mission using parameters found nowhere in the game to create a challenge doesn't alter the underlying reality that support archetypes just aren't very useful in the game because they're buffing allies beyond what is needed. Even running with no temporary powers/inspirations/etc., there really isn't a need for more than what well-designed melee AT can do defensively.

Sure, most melee AT’s don’t need the defensive support - but even that’s a misleading point since Force Field is the only support set in the game that provides only defensive support. The most important contributions from support classes tend to be +damage, -res, -regen, CC, and shoring up your non-melee teammates’ mitigation.

 

As for the other AT’s that can all soft-cap with set bonuses or Scorpion Shield or whatever: (1) they’ll still have serious limitations without DDR, (2) some of us find defense bonus builds lame as hell. 20% defense and all out procs+offense is more my speed. Defense bonus builds have anemic damage if you ask me.

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

The most important contributions from support classes tend to be +damage, -res, -regen, CC, and shoring up your non-melee teammates’ mitigation.

-Regen isn't very useful. -100% Regen on an endgame AV/GM is roughly equivalent to 15 (non-scaling) dps. Certainly, it's great if you're trying to solo even-level AV/GM for kicks, but for teams it's mostly superfluous.

 

+damage/-res are definitely useful, but it becomes a calculation of how much dps you lose vs. how much dps you gain. More importantly, the melee AT brings these abilities as well - they're just lower numbers. So while you can theorize about some perfectly structured group full of defenders, it's a lot easier to just grab 8 melee AT who can all operate effectively independently of one another and who synergize in any combination when you stack them.

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, Hjarki said:

No, it's assuming you're playing the actual content in the game.

 

The fact that you can set up an AE mission using parameters found nowhere in the game to create a challenge doesn't alter the underlying reality that support archetypes just aren't very useful in the game because they're buffing allies beyond what is needed. Even running with no temporary powers/inspirations/etc., there really isn't a need for more than what well-designed melee AT can do defensively.

 

Play the ASF at it's highest difficulty then come back and discuss after.

[MoonSheep]

45 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

-Regen isn't very useful. -100% Regen on an endgame AV/GM is roughly equivalent to 15 (non-scaling) dps. Certainly, it's great if you're trying to solo even-level AV/GM for kicks, but for teams it's mostly superfluous.

 

+damage/-res are definitely useful, but it becomes a calculation of how much dps you lose vs. how much dps you gain. More importantly, the melee AT brings these abilities as well - they're just lower numbers. So while you can theorize about some perfectly structured group full of defenders, it's a lot easier to just grab 8 melee AT who can all operate effectively independently of one another and who synergize in any combination when you stack them.

 

melee ATs are inefficient however as you’re forced to choose a secondary (or primary for tanks) with defensive shields that don’t add anything to the battle or the team, whereas squishy ATs have a beneficial primary *and* secondary set that benefits both the battle and the team. a team of 8 melee ATs is half as capable as a team of 8 fully fledged squishy ATs

 

as you point out, they are often a good entry level archetype as they’re pickup and play, but are limited in overall ability compared to defenders/corrs/doms

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

-Regen isn't very useful. -100% Regen on an endgame AV/GM is roughly equivalent to 15 (non-scaling) dps. Certainly, it's great if you're trying to solo even-level AV/GM for kicks, but for teams it's mostly superfluous.

 

+damage/-res are definitely useful, but it becomes a calculation of how much dps you lose vs. how much dps you gain. More importantly, the melee AT brings these abilities as well - they're just lower numbers. So while you can theorize about some perfectly structured group full of defenders, it's a lot easier to just grab 8 melee AT who can all operate effectively independently of one another and who synergize in any combination when you stack them.

Fair enough RE: -regen but I’ll add that -100% is not what I’d consider meaningful -regen. I’d say Poison’s -regen (250% I think) is the minimum for truly meaningful debuff, and Benumb, Lingering Radiation, Heat Exhaustion, and especially Poison Trap are where they become game changers.

 

Also agree melee can access all the -res procs, but important to remember these won’t stack from multiple users.

 

Sure, 8 melees will do well in this game. My gang has run “All [pick an AT]” TF’s of all kinds. I think the melees are up there, but the all support ones are often the best. Regardless, when we’re not running special teams, people tend to bring a tank, a couple of kins, a couple of blasters, then perhaps a mix of either debuffers (rads, colds, whatever) or perhaps scrappers. And the results speak for themselves. No, support is not strictly *necessary* in this game. I think/hope that’s the point you’re making. Because it’s ridiculous to imply it isn’t *powerful* and highly *useful*.

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[Without_Pause]

I remember being on a team which would have loved added support because we had so little and Statesman simply was not going down until we got the Jade Spider involved. I kid you not in saying we spent roughly 30 minutes on Statesman alone. And no, this was not a TF. Just a normal red side arc.

[Carnifax]

14 hours ago, arcane said:

I’d say Poison’s -regen (250% I think) is the minimum for truly meaningful debuff

50/75% I think. 250% is the vs Player number. Only source of -Regen is Envenom, so it's 50 or 75 if you can do the "double splash" thing. 

 

Poison is pretty rubbish at -Regen, slightly ironically. 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

50/75% I think. 250% is the vs Player number. Only source of -Regen is Envenom, so it's 50 or 75 if you can do the "double splash" thing. 

 

Poison is pretty rubbish at -Regen, slightly ironically. 

Then I stand corrected. Guess my Poison pylon times are more about -res or something. Anyway, the -500% / -1000% powers. Those are monsters. Or at least there is a correlation between using them and AV’s melting - perhaps I’m missing the true cause.

[Carnifax]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

Then I stand corrected. Guess my Poison pylon times are more about -res or something. Anyway, the -500% / -1000% powers. Those are monsters. Or at least there is a correlation between using them and AV’s melting - perhaps I’m missing the true cause.

I went to analyse one on my Rad Tank (because I can just stand there and try things). They are pretty vulnerable to Resist debuffs because their RDR is only 20% (20% resists across the board). 

 

They do have decent regen so there's certainly something to be said for being able to debuff that too. Rad Therapy does -150% regen, 87% gets resisted so effectively 150% -regen nets you 20 DPS from countering the regen. 

 

So yes a monster -regen debuff will make a big difference. 

[arcane]

4 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I went to analyse one on my Rad Tank (because I can just stand there and try things). They are pretty vulnerable to Resist debuffs because their RDR is only 20% (20% resists across the board). 

 

They do have decent regen so there's certainly something to be said for being able to debuff that too. Rad Therapy does -150% regen, 87% gets resisted so effectively 150% -regen nets you 20 DPS from countering the regen. 

 

So yes a monster -regen debuff will make a big difference. 

My Traps/AR actually has my best pylon time of my defenders at the moment (averages about 2:10), which I find to be lol. Granted there’s another caveat on top of just Poison Trap being amazing - I get to actually freely use Ignite. But even before I respec’d into Ignite it was doing way better than I would ever think an /AR defender would. Right now it doesn’t have a real attack chain but it still works - just drops fresh traps in the gaps between Sniper Rifle, Ignite, Full Auto, and Dominate.

 

Need to get my new Ill/Traps out there, since Ill/ trollers tend to be my best overall.

Edited May 12, 2022 by arcane

[Voltak]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:18 PM, Hjarki said:

-Regen isn't very useful. -100% Regen on an endgame AV/GM is roughly equivalent to 15 (non-scaling) dps. Certainly, it's great if you're trying to solo even-level AV/GM for kicks, but for teams it's mostly superfluous.

 

+damage/-res are definitely useful, but it becomes a calculation of how much dps you lose vs. how much dps you gain. More importantly, the melee AT brings these abilities as well - they're just lower numbers. So while you can theorize about some perfectly structured group full of defenders, it's a lot easier to just grab 8 melee AT who can all operate effectively independently of one another and who synergize in any combination when you stack them.

Theorize ??  

Theorize ??

Bring your 8 melee team, hit ITF , 54 x 8 , do a master of ITF run (that means no incarnates), turn off inspirations. 

I will bring my combination team with support.  

We will do it faster, and maybe even kill more than you will, and be safer too. 
Not only that, but I will have a greater repertoire to choose from ,  a variety of the combos that will beat an all melee team. 

No theory needed. 

Let's talk practice. 

Other than that, let's run one of my AE's or any 801s from @Linea  bring your 8 of just pure melee.  

You don't have to accept, but I know for a fact that the inclusion of support will just be decisive. 

There's no competition there. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Voltak

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, Voltak said:

Theorize ??  

Theorize ??

Bring your 8 melee team, hit ITF , 54 x 8 , do a master of ITF run (that means no incarnates), turn off inspirations. 

I will bring my combination team with support.  

We will do it faster, and maybe even kill more than you will, and be safer too. 
Not only that, but I will have a greater repertoire to choose from ,  a variety of the combos that will beat an all melee team. 

No theory needed. 

Let's talk practice. 

Other than that, let's run one of my AE's or any 801s from @Linea  bring your 8 of just pure melee.  

You don't have to accept, but I know for a fact that the inclusion of support will just be decisive. 

There's no competition there. 

This^

     I've been on several random all (scrapper/VEAT/Brute) teams.  Strong, hard to kill yes.  Able to operate independently yes.  Able to take on the vast majority of content, definitely yes.

     I've also done all defender, all controller and all support teams  many, many times over.  About the only thing I'd theorize about is whether or not to include one damage focused character (Scrapper or Blaster) over an 8th support character and theorizing would mostly revolve around if replacing the 8th support for a scrapper/blaster would make any substantial difference at all. 

     There's a reason things like 8 Corruptors comes up in such discussions and gets compared to 8 defenders or 8 support and noticeably absent from the debates are teams of 8 scrappers, 8 melee or 8 'dps'.  The one and only true advange such teams might have is health and health caps and even that can be largely obliterated by the large amounts of -damage that can be part of the support equation.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[arcane]

18 hours ago, Voltak said:

Theorize ??  

Theorize ??

Bring your 8 melee team, hit ITF , 54 x 8 , do a master of ITF run (that means no incarnates), turn off inspirations. 

I will bring my combination team with support.  

We will do it faster, and maybe even kill more than you will, and be safer too. 
Not only that, but I will have a greater repertoire to choose from ,  a variety of the combos that will beat an all melee team. 

No theory needed. 

Let's talk practice. 

Other than that, let's run one of my AE's or any 801s from @Linea  bring your 8 of just pure melee.  

You don't have to accept, but I know for a fact that the inclusion of support will just be decisive. 

There's no competition there. 

I can’t remember my own group’s stats on various all-one-AT runs and I’m not interested in playing anything without inspirations at the moment except for Relentless Aeon SF so…

 

Remind me… wasn’t 8 corruptors still coming out on top of 8 scrappers in ITF’s even without “master rules”?

 

[people keep telling me to run tests against them with no inspirations but because I never have a problem with them normally I build pretty offensively, rendering my builds a little non-ideal for this stuff…]

Edited May 13, 2022 by arcane

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I can’t remember my own group’s stats on various all-one-AT runs and I’m not interested in playing anything without inspirations at the moment except for Relentless Aeon SF so…

 

Remind me… wasn’t 8 corruptors still coming out on top of 8 scrappers in ITF’s even without “master rules”?

 

[people keep telling me to run tests against them with no inspirations but because I never have a problem with them normally I build pretty offensively, rendering my builds a little non-ideal for this stuff…]

I have not kept track of settings outside of 54 x 8, no inspirations or no incarnates.  

Everything outside of those settings is just too easy. 

But I have kept track of those settings I mentioned above, and with those settings I said a combination team has always come ahead, and a purely support team will clean house if the settings are even more difficult, like no incarnates and no inspirations, no deaths allowed. 

Three-man teams of pure melee was beat by a team of two melee and one kinetics.  
I was the kinetics in the team and the video is up for anyone to see. 
The time is still a record to this day and chances are it won't get broken 19 minutes 24 seconds, no deaths, no inspirations, no temp powers, no augments like those P2W buffs sold either. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Voltak

[Voltak]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:36 PM, Linea said:

By all means, I'll take extra damage and a higher damage cap and a higher target cap on my defender.  *evil maniacal laughter*

 

 

tldr: However ..., with the exception of Kin, if you built your defender for offense the way you build your corruptor for offense, the damage difference at 50 will be minimal.  Meanwhile the defender will be much easier and more flexible to build, as well as easier to armor.  It's almost always easier to push defender to armor vs offense.  While it's almost always easier to push corruptor to offense vs armor, and frequently the corruptor mirrors fail my armor benchmarks and push the corruptor into only one build.  Meanwhile the defender may have two or even three builds that vary from full armor, to offense, to full proc offense.  (NOT that builds need to have nearly as much armor as I put on them)

 

In large part it's self-fulfilling prophecy.

• It's complicated, and varies depending on level and build. 
• Most people don't even try to armor their defender.
• Nor do they try to build those defenders offensively.
• But they do build their corruptors offensively
• And frequently even add in some survivability to those corruptors, but not the defenders.

Disclaimer:

It does vary, widely, based on level and build.

The following does NOT include proc builds, those are relatively new to i27, and I build armored builds, not 700+ dps proc builds.  You probably shouldn't get too comfy with that 700+ dps proc build either, as procs are vastly imbalanced depending on exactly which sets you pick.

Assuming 41+4x8.

 

ASSUMING +41+4x8, given that's pretty much all I do.  This can also in most cases be translated to +4x8 from somewhere in the level 39 to 41 and up range.  Between level 20 and level 40 the corruptor has the advantage and it takes time for the defender to catch up.  How much time depends on the build.

Scourge is almost always over-estimated, usually by double, sometimes more.

Outside of Kin, or other situations where the Corruptor WILL be effecitively perma-damage capped, the damage works out surprisingly even.  /Kin and similar, If both are always capped, the cap itself wins, so it's corruptor by a 4:3 ratio.  The caps trump all else.  Hence /Kin is always best unless it's just an armor issue that's causing you to stumble.  Even then, I'd still recommend /Kin at least most of the time.

Over the years I've built many mirrors, and the results are very similar in each case.  That's not to say they will always be similar in every build and every combination, just that I have not yet stumbled upon anything other than Kin where the difference is large enough to matter.

The best example, and also a surprising one, in that the +/- were opposite of what I was expecting, was Fire/Nature and Nature/Fire.  Both built to (almost) self-damage cap and heavily armored.  The defender DID damage cap, while the corruptor missed the cap, but hit effectively equivalent damage levels.  Percentages are based vs my Fire/Atomic Armored Blaster.

 

Fire/Nature rated 100% st, 67% aoe

Nature/Fire rated 103% st, 63% aoe

 

The only other example I still have handy is Time/Fire, and this isn't going to be as useful as I'd like as it's been too long ago.

Time/Fire (offense) rated 96% st, 83% aoe

Time/Fire (standard) rated ... data lost ... But it was almost identical to the corruptor.

Fire/Time (standard) rated 76% st, 59% aoe ... The offensive variant on the corruptor frame, failed my armor standards.  So while this isn't helpful for dps comparison, it is a demonstration of the flexibility and ease of building of defender vs corruptor.

 

Anyone interested in practical tests, real in-game results ?

As someone who has done over 50 DUOs with defenders and over 50 Duos with corruptors 

The difference between the two doing the same, or doing the ITF with same objectives, the difference is roughly 3 minutes. Corruptors are only 3 minutes ahead of Defenders, doing 54 x8 , no inspirations, no temps, no P2W. 

I have mixed and match lots different power sets.  Taking roughly the same power sets, it's only roughly 3 minutes. 
The difference is relatively small. 

I time all the runs, I record so many of them and I analyze for improvements , tactics, strategies, build tweak, and so on. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Voltak