Are Defenders the equivalent of support Tanks?

[Ankhammon]

It seems to me that this statement is supposed to be at least somewhat true.

 

The reason I ask is that there seems to be an opportunity to improve the lot in life for Defenders and make them more attractive as an AT than they currently are.

In the current state of the game, defenders get a very small bump to their debuffs and buffs over their Corruptor counterparts. They also get a modest damage increase to their own base while solo or an end discount on teams if they let their team maintain some damage to themselves (ie. don't let them heal fully).

The other side, gets a substantial increase to their damage to not only their base damage, but their damage cap and their inherent (scourge).

 

IMO, this does not seem to be an equal exchange and it's always kind of bugged me.

Now I know that there has been many a discussion from the forums on if this needs fixing or how to make things better.

 

Looking at the Tank changes from a while back, it gives me an idea that might do much to make the defender seem more of a defender and help to make them feel different and not just a lesser damaging corrupter.

My idea is that we take the existing powers and just increase the max targets and perhaps their area of effects. Same values but more targets affected.

An example of this can be seen in Elec. Blast, the current pbaoe for short circuit is 20 range and 16 target max for both ATs. What if it hit 24 targets on a defender and increased the range to like 24? I'm making up those values, but it would help shore up the damage issue overall but leave the defender with a different feel. It also potentially helps the team a bit more.

 

Would this be enough to make the Defender feel like it offers a unique place in the pantheon? Maybe not, but I think it might go a good deal of the way to helping this.

I might also say they could use some sort of a bump to their debuffs against AV levels and Monsters but I have no real idea how to accomplish this.

 

What do you all think?

[Bill Z Bubba]

All numbers rounded and I'm only going to work with soloing.

 

Defender Energy Blast - 59

Corruptor Energy Blast - 68

 

Vigilance adds a 30% buff.

Scourge actually, interestingly enough, also works out to a 30% buff over time.

So, solo, the corruptor is only doing about 13% more damage on average.

 

Huh. Defender Heal Other is 13% higher than Corruptor Heal Other.

Defender debuffs appear to be 20% higher.

Some buffs, both RAs for instance, are identical.

 

At the damage cap:

Max Defender EB - 59*4 = 236

Max Corruptor EB - 68*5 = 340 30% higher but we still have to add another 30% for scourge, 442 so 47% higher at the cap but how often does a solo Def or Cor hit the damage cap?

 

My time/fire defender can get to +275.5 as per the combat monitor but that's with Aim+Gaussian CFBU, PBU, Vigilance and then there's slotting... well, ok, she hits the cap pretty often then but she's also 50 and fully tricked out. A similarly built corruptor won't have the 30% from vigilance and their buff values from Aim, BU and the like are 15% lower.

 

I dunno.... sure seems like these two are pretty damn well balanced as is. Now that I'm looking at it.... I can only WISH the melee ATs were that well balanced.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Psyonico]

I'd argue that the bump in (de)buff stats is more than a "small" one

[Ankhammon]

 Not really arguing here Bill, just trying to sort things out in my head.

 

Here's another couple examples for you:

Dark Blast tents listed at base damage for Corrupters at 77.99 and for Defenders it's 33.80. That's more than twice the damage and I'm keeping any kind of procs out of it cuz it should be equal across the board. Secondary effects are 3 mag immob for 12 seconds and -7.5% tohit for vs 3 mag immob for 15 seconds and -9.38% tohit for defenders.

Beam rifle single shot is 108.44 vs 57.83. secondary effects 20% chance of 0.67 kb and -75% regen for 10 seconds for both sides. 

 

If we assume solo the damage for those goes up to 43.94 for tents and 75.179 for single shot. I'm not sure how to qualify this simply because it's part of the inherent and only applicable for solo.

Sure, super tricked out can take advantage of this by being actually self sufficient defensively but most of the time building up a defender isn't in that zone.

 

I'd also argue that fire might be skirting the issue since those damage dots will flatten out the curve. Do you know if those dots are scaling with base damage or are they independent? I honestly don't know.

 

What I do know if my defender gets a whiff of more than 16 baddies attention he's gotta hit the oh S*** button or faceplant in short time.

 

 

And Psyonico, sure if you are talking about a 20% bump on like flash arrow, that's a very significant boost but when you look overall at the blast sets then it becomes a few ticks (see above) and doesn't seem to match up with the potential damage increases we see on the Corrupter side.

 

I know "overall" is the point and not just the blast sets but for most defenders the reality of life while leveling up is stay on a team or get used to fighting at base level or maybe something like 0/+3.

Sometime I just don't feel super on a solo Defender when most other ATs do.

 

Think I might try out one of my favorite defender (Time/Elec) as a corrupter and see how he feels in his 20s.

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Ankhammon said:

 Not really arguing here Bill, just trying to sort things out in my head.

 

Here's another couple examples for you:

Dark Blast tents listed at base damage for Corrupters at 77.99 and for Defenders it's 33.80. That's more than twice the damage and I'm keeping any kind of procs out of it cuz it 

Beam rifle single shot is 108.44 vs 57.83. secondary effects 20% chance of 0.67 kb and -75% regen for 10 seconds for both sides. 

 

 

I'm assuming you're getting those numbers out of mids? be sure to turn off "Scourge" and you'll see TT drop to 39 damage and Single Shot to 41 for Corrs

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

I'm assuming you're getting those numbers out of mids? be sure to turn off "Scourge" and you'll see TT drop to 39 damage and Single Shot to 41 for Corrs

 

 

Corruptor numbers in game are also taking Scourge into account, last time I looked.

[Ankhammon]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Corruptor numbers in game are also taking Scourge into account, last time I looked.

If that's what it is, then i rescind the whole thing. I was basing all of this supposition on what I could see in game.

Can't base a critique on faulty info.

 

I wasn't looking at mids.

[MoonSheep]

not every AT needs to be a combat class, i find playing a dedicated support AT very rewarding 

[Linea]

By all means, I'll take extra damage and a higher damage cap and a higher target cap on my defender.  *evil maniacal laughter*

 

 

tldr: However ..., with the exception of Kin, if you built your defender for offense the way you build your corruptor for offense, the damage difference at 50 will be minimal.  Meanwhile the defender will be much easier and more flexible to build, as well as easier to armor.  It's almost always easier to push defender to armor vs offense.  While it's almost always easier to push corruptor to offense vs armor, and frequently the corruptor mirrors fail my armor benchmarks and push the corruptor into only one build.  Meanwhile the defender may have two or even three builds that vary from full armor, to offense, to full proc offense.  (NOT that builds need to have nearly as much armor as I put on them)

 

In large part it's self-fulfilling prophecy.

• It's complicated, and varies depending on level and build. 
• Most people don't even try to armor their defender.
• Nor do they try to build those defenders offensively.
• But they do build their corruptors offensively
• And frequently even add in some survivability to those corruptors, but not the defenders.

Disclaimer:

It does vary, widely, based on level and build.

The following does NOT include proc builds, those are relatively new to i27, and I build armored builds, not 700+ dps proc builds.  You probably shouldn't get too comfy with that 700+ dps proc build either, as procs are vastly imbalanced depending on exactly which sets you pick.

Assuming 41+4x8.

 

ASSUMING +41+4x8, given that's pretty much all I do.  This can also in most cases be translated to +4x8 from somewhere in the level 39 to 41 and up range.  Between level 20 and level 40 the corruptor has the advantage and it takes time for the defender to catch up.  How much time depends on the build.

Scourge is almost always over-estimated, usually by double, sometimes more.

Outside of Kin, or other situations where the Corruptor WILL be effecitively perma-damage capped, the damage works out surprisingly even.  /Kin and similar, If both are always capped, the cap itself wins, so it's corruptor by a 4:3 ratio.  The caps trump all else.  Hence /Kin is always best unless it's just an armor issue that's causing you to stumble.  Even then, I'd still recommend /Kin at least most of the time.

Over the years I've built many mirrors, and the results are very similar in each case.  That's not to say they will always be similar in every build and every combination, just that I have not yet stumbled upon anything other than Kin where the difference is large enough to matter.

The best example, and also a surprising one, in that the +/- were opposite of what I was expecting, was Fire/Nature and Nature/Fire.  Both built to (almost) self-damage cap and heavily armored.  The defender DID damage cap, while the corruptor missed the cap, but hit effectively equivalent damage levels.  Percentages are based vs my Fire/Atomic Armored Blaster.

 

Fire/Nature rated 100% st, 67% aoe

Nature/Fire rated 103% st, 63% aoe

 

The only other example I still have handy is Time/Fire, and this isn't going to be as useful as I'd like as it's been too long ago.

Time/Fire (offense) rated 96% st, 83% aoe

Time/Fire (standard) rated ... data lost ... But it was almost identical to the corruptor.

Fire/Time (standard) rated 76% st, 59% aoe ... The offensive variant on the corruptor frame, failed my armor standards.  So while this isn't helpful for dps comparison, it is a demonstration of the flexibility and ease of building of defender vs corruptor.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Linea

[oedipus_tex]

I think in the current meta Defender tends to be the stronger archetype. Corruptors aren't bad by any means, it's just that that 30% damage buff Defenders get when solo ends up filling the very specific gap where they might otherwise flag in usefulness. If I'm ever on the fence about Defender vs Corruptor I feel safer rolling the Defender most of the time.

 

If I were to need a tie breaker, I think the Defender ATOs are superior, especially on sets that lack their own heal. So even though Cold, TA, Traps etc lend themselves well to Corruptors, the Defender variety feels like the safer, sturdier bet to me. 

[Apparition]

I will always go Corruptor over Defender and Brute over Tanker because, personally, I find Defenders and Tankers extremely boring.  I had a level 50 Time/Dual Pistols Defender all accoladed and Incarnated out that I stripped and deleted as soon as Page Two launched, when the Barracuda SF no longer required a Defender or Mastermind to complete.  So I suppose that does make Defenders equivalent to support Tankers. 

[Ankhammon]

Just to clarify, I was never asking for a damage increase, just looking at increasing the cap to max targets which was based on my feelz over levels 20-35.

 

I seem to get into the same cookie cutter gotta take fighting pool to get survival up and then it takes 2.4 yrs to bring down a group before moving on to the next (would I exaggerate?). I thought perhaps that an increase in max targets could alleviate the need to fighting pool it and leave me a few extra slots for damage.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:16 PM, Ankhammon said:

Just to clarify, I was never asking for a damage increase, just looking at increasing the cap to max targets which was based on my feelz over levels 20-35.

     Your 'feelz' are running into, I think, the difference in the relative levels powers are acquired between primary and secondary.  Corruptors get their offense earlier, i.e. their blasts while defenders get their "support".  That difference is most profound in the level range you mention both in which powers have been acquired and in the corresponding ability to place slots and enhance them.  A Corruptor will gain Fire Blast at 18th.  10 levels later a Defender will get theirs.  Corruptors will have and may place 3 slots in Inferno (total 4).  The Defender meanwhile is going 3 more levels, 3 more levels at 35th.  As @Lineapoints out the Defender lags offensively and it'll take some levels to catch up.

On 2/28/2022 at 3:16 PM, Ankhammon said:

 

I seem to get into the same cookie cutter gotta take fighting pool to get survival up and then it takes 2.4 yrs to bring down a group before moving on to the next (would I exaggerate?). I thought perhaps that an increase in max targets could alleviate the need to fighting pool it and leave me a few extra slots for damage.

 

 

 

[Peacemoon]

Personally I always find the advantage of increased support numbers (buffing and debuffing), plus superior numbers from power pools, such as Leadership and Fighting, really make me favour the Defender. 
 

Corruptors really pull ahead in damage numbers when in Teams, but CoH being what it is, most Teams are normally pretty good on the damage front!

 

As mentioned I think one of the biggest differences just comes down to the level which powers become available, which actually tends to steer your play style through what powers you can choose and when.

[Hjarki]

As I see it, the problem with support AT is that the game simply runs off the rails at the high end. When almost anyone with a defense set can hard-cap resists and soft-cap defenses, there isn't much need for these sorts of buffs. Moreover, the stacking nature of these sorts of buffs means that even if you shift the goal posts a bit, you merely end up in a situation where you only need one.

 

Buff/debuffs also aren't created equal. Even significant amounts of -damage barely make a dent in the damage output of serious enemies because of the way the scaling works and their resistances. But even minor amounts of +resist can slice damage taken into a fraction of its value (presuming they're not already hard-capped).

 

Ultimately, I think the only solution is to scale almost everything logarithmically and remove most of the inherent resists to debuffs. On such a scaling, you'd never be able to 'cap' anything - each subsequent buff/debuff would provide less and less benefit - and increasing/decreasing a stat would have the same overall effect with the same numbers.

 

However, this would be a radical departure from the fundamental game mechanics, require everyone to re-build their characters and dramatically change a huge array of playstyles. You'd probably no longer have those +4 Fire Farms and you'd find much of the content far harder than it is now.

[Crysis]

Didn’t I read somewhere that Defenders get “tank AT def/res values” for their power pool res/def powers?  Or did I imagine that?

[DreadShinobi]

@Hjarki you're suggesting the pvp diminishing returns patch to be applied to pve. No.

[Without_Pause]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:43 PM, Hjarki said:

When almost anyone with a defense set can hard-cap resists and soft-cap defenses

Knock yourself out showing how many Def based sets can also cap Resists while soft capping. Soft capping all types is difficult if not impossible. I said types. Not positions. Getting S/L Resist capped alone can be difficult for a Def based set. I have multiple Def based IO builds which have high but not capped S/L Resists. I even recently did a Brute build where some resists are quite low as there is no way to get them up in that sort of build without gimping it and even in that case likely not getting capped.

 

This says nothing of a having a build soft capped and having credible DDR.

[Voltak]

On 2/26/2022 at 6:01 PM, Ankhammon said:

It seems to me that this statement is supposed to be at least somewhat true.

 

The reason I ask is that there seems to be an opportunity to improve the lot in life for Defenders and make them more attractive as an AT than they currently are.

 

Whoever thinks Defenders are not attractive as they are currently is because of ignorance ( no disrespect intended) or a lack of experience doing very challenging things using Defenders with no inspirations used, no deaths. 
 

[Voltak]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:43 PM, Hjarki said:

As I see it, the problem with support AT is that the game simply runs off the rails at the high end. When almost anyone with a defense set can hard-cap resists and soft-cap defenses, there isn't much need for these sorts of buffs.

THis is all assuming you are playing the easiest of content in the game. 

Your statement falls apart or not applicable as you climb the ladder of difficulty, as in enemies, content, no inspirations, no deaths allowed, are you doing even more challenging content such as some AE content -- are you doing some task forces with the hardest of settings on and facing enemies +4, are you turning off incarnates or not, and so on ?

The game is VERY VERY EASY in many things, but this game has a lot of difficult content if you want to find it. 

The harder the content and the challenge, the more you start to see that the kings of this game are the support toons.  As the challenge increases and difficulty is increasing, they simply PWN, and they will show any other types that YOU NEED THEM, but THEY DO NOT NEED YOU. 

That's experience doing the most difficult things in the game talking.

Whoever has a passion and finds a lot of fun in experiencing the hardest of content in the game will tell you the same thing. 

@Linea is a witness, the harder the content, the more valuable a well built and a well played support character really is.  You increase the challenge higher and higher and the more the support toons will start to show that non-support are not needed but support is critical. 

The support toon is the MVP of this game as the challenge increases. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Voltak

[Ankhammon]

6 hours ago, Voltak said:

 

Whoever thinks Defenders are not attractive as they are currently is because of ignorance ( no disrespect intended) or a lack of experience doing very challenging things using Defenders with no inspirations used, no deaths. 
 

Please make no assumptions that I'm suggesting Defenders aren't attractive or that I'm ignorant of what they are capable of.

 

I've been playing majority Defenders since I2. My first level 50 was a dark/dark fender when they were really challenging (remember the 3.5 second heal or the stationary version of fluffy?).

 

What I wasn't as familiar with was Corrupters nor the fact that the damage listed for Corrupters (in game) threw in scourge damage.

[Voltak]

I am not making assumptions, Ankhammon. 

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone.  

[Hjarki]

14 hours ago, Voltak said:

THis is all assuming you are playing the easiest of content in the game. 

No, it's assuming you're playing the actual content in the game.

 

The fact that you can set up an AE mission using parameters found nowhere in the game to create a challenge doesn't alter the underlying reality that support archetypes just aren't very useful in the game because they're buffing allies beyond what is needed. Even running with no temporary powers/inspirations/etc., there really isn't a need for more than what well-designed melee AT can do defensively.

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

No, it's assuming you're playing the actual content in the game.

 

The fact that you can set up an AE mission using parameters found nowhere in the game to create a challenge doesn't alter the underlying reality that support archetypes just aren't very useful in the game because they're buffing allies beyond what is needed. Even running with no temporary powers/inspirations/etc., there really isn't a need for more than what well-designed melee AT can do defensively.

 

the same thing could be said about melee ATs - some of the fastest runs of the game’s hardest content is achieved with all defender or all controller teams.

 

is there a need for melee ATs when defenders/controllers can combine to become a much more powerful force?

[Voltak]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

No, it's assuming you're playing the actual content in the game.

 

The fact that you can set up an AE mission using parameters found nowhere in the game to create a challenge doesn't alter the underlying reality that support archetypes just aren't very useful in the game because they're buffing allies beyond what is needed. Even running with no temporary powers/inspirations/etc., there really isn't a need for more than what well-designed melee AT can do defensively.

Again, assuming you are playing the actual content of the game, but specifically the part of the content that is the easiest. 

The game content is huge.  There is a lot of content, and there is content that is EASY and there is content that is not so easy, and the difficulty of the content goes up and up. 

AE is not the only challenging content of the game, and even AE has degrees of difficulty, a large selection of difficulty. 

The fact is that once the difficulty is high enough, it is the support toons that start to be more valuable to the point even that the non-support types are not needed anymore. 

Non-support toons will get pwned as the difficulty increases if they are alone with no support.  That is a fact, and not debatable. 

Melee AT, even well designed, may very well get owned in very difficult content. 

So, like I said, wether or not support is needed, that depends on the content you are facing and how challenging it is, and what enemies you are facing and so on.