Null The Gull -> Knockback to Knockdown

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

But if this were to happen I'd rather it just be an auto-power granted to all characters. Saves me traipsing back to that damned bird everytime someone blows their gasket because I pushed a single enemy 5 feet.

They'd probably get their knickers in a right twist at one of my Seismic Blasters, who has a level 50 Knockback IO in the sixth slot of Meteor until I decide how I want to slot it for the long run. It may be juvenile, but I find the visual of a dozen mobs hurled hundreds of feet in an instant endlessly risible. And watching Nemesis Jaegers turn into flaming comets hurtling across the landscape is always good for a laugh. I am thoroughly enjoying the change the HC staff made for blast knockback to be radial, not just away from the attacker; it makes a surprisingly significant improvement to the power effects.

[Glacier Peak]

I am generally against giving Null the Gull the power to do something that which is already available for players in the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

See? Same thread, every damn time.

 

Make the Null option turn off knock completely. I'm fine with that as well. Sounds like a fantastic compromise.

 

Barring that, how about we make the forums automatically delete any post that mentions knockback?

 

No other secondary effect in this game has the negative outcome that comes with KB. No other secondary effect prompted the creation of an enhancement to lessen its annoyance. No other secondary effect causes this level of constant back and forth and vitriol on the forums.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Travel power pop up tray was imposed on players by HC. Null disabling that is fine.

KB-based powers are the player's choice. Null disabling that makes much less sense.

 

Bzzt. Wrong. You can choose not to take the powers that cause the popup tray.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Naraka]

52 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 No other secondary effect causes this level of constant back and forth and vitriol on the forums.

 

I guess we should all just become a hive mind and just agree on everything lol

 

The things you pointed out: there's nothing wrong with those.

 

Also, not everything has to be tailored for complete comfort and convenience. This constant directive to recreate this experience of retuning to the warmth of the womb with no worries, cares, opposition, ect is just bizarre to me. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Naraka said:

This constant directive to recreate this experience of retuning to the warmth of the womb with no worries, cares, opposition, ect is just bizarre to me. 

 

It really shouldn't be. It's a game. Vast majority of us play it for fun and escapism and when our fun gets shit on by other players or game mechanics we're left with few options. The psychotic aversion some people have to allowing a fair option to be rid of a nuisance is what continues to surprise me.

 

So if the new problem is "you just want your cake and to eat it too," fine, make the Null version disable knock across the board on a character. No knock, no repel. Edit: No up, no down.

 

Sounds great.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Mr. Apocalypse]

make KB--> KD a temp power that cost 100 reward merits and lasts for 4 hours real time (not 4 hours in-game time) this would relegate it to only special occasions where KB becomes ultra detrimental to the game-play experience.  Cost and times are just off the top of my head, maybe cost more, last less time.  whatever works out to be the best tradeoff. But absolutely not a null the gull thing, and definitely not something that can be purchased with influence/infamy.

[Luminara]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So if the new problem is "you just want your cake and to eat it too," fine, make the Null version disable knock across the board on a character. No knock, no repel. Edit: No up, no down.

 

Just to be clear, you're advocating power creep and the further erosion of the existing balance via freeing up the slots we've dedicated to KB->KD enhancements which could then be used to acquire more set bonuses, procs and improving other powers, and removing constraints which currently moderate the overall strength of powers like Tornado and Hurricane, as well as totally obviating the purpose of several powers, such as FF's Repel and Sonic's Repulsion Field, not to mention putting players into a position in which they have to choose between potentially being ostracized, or having to give up critical personal protective powers?

 

Did you forget your coffee this morning?

[Naraka]

35 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It really shouldn't be. It's a game. Vast majority of us play it for fun and escapism and when our fun gets shit on by other players or game mechanics we're left with few options. The psychotic aversion some people have to allowing a fair option to be rid of a nuisance is what continues to surprise me.

 

So if the new problem is "you just want your cake and to eat it too," fine, make the Null version disable knock across the board on a character. No knock, no repel. Edit: No up, no down.

 

Sounds great.

I get you. I just find it bizarre and, for lack of a better word, soft.

 

It'd be like playing outside as kids but it starts raining and everything is getting soggy... I'd rather be that kid that just plays and gets muddy. The ones that want to keep their good clothes clean and play inside can just go... But apparently, those inconveniences should be eliminated because we need control. Sterility. Predictability. Isolation from emotions like frustration, anger and annoyance. Everything should just be the good Matrix that existed before the movies. I just don't vibe with that...

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Then give me an enhancement that turns off group fly.

Turn on Rest 😀 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

See? Same thread, every damn time.

So what?

 

If a handful of people constantly make threads wanting the devs to give them a "I win button" does that mean they should? So what if a handful of people keep making threads about how much they hate knockback?

 

This is from a post I made back in June 2021:

 

"Well, he'd be wrong. And so are you: Here's a link to an actual poll that was conducted last year.

 

The players who say they LOVE KNOCKBACK total 52.47% of the respondents. Players who hate knockback, or who wish it was knockdown instead, total just 22.77% of the respondents."

 

Why did I link to an old post instead of just redoing the numbers myself? Because the anti-knockback people have continued to vote in that poll thus skewing the numbers. But, when it was first posted, before people knew that it'd be used as fodder for forum threads, people gave their honest opinion. And their honest opinion is that the majority of players LOVE knockback.

 

Also in that thread:

Captain Powerhouse "Knockback is a mechanic that adds a lot of "power" feel to a player. It is usually disliked in this game only because it gets in the way of optimizing kill time (something that goes back to the root of this game over-rewarding kill speed instead of task completion, but that's a topic for another day.) That is a feeling of power I heavily am against removing from the game.

 

A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not."

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

Just to be clear, you're advocating power creep and the further erosion of the existing balance via freeing up the slots we've dedicated to KB->KD enhancements which could then be used to acquire more set bonuses, procs and improving other powers, and removing constraints which currently moderate the overall strength of powers like Tornado and Hurricane, as well as totally obviating the purpose of several powers, such as FF's Repel and Sonic's Repulsion Field, not to mention putting players into a position in which they have to choose between potentially being ostracized, or having to give up critical personal protective powers?

 

Did you forget your coffee this morning?

 

So you admit that the enhancement tax on knockback powers is a real thing while declaring that knock is a detrimental effect put in place specifically to balance a given power's overall effect. And yet energy blast's (the entire set) damage is one of the few that follow the original damage/end/rec equations (mostly) so in that case it's just being penalized by your own logic.

 

Are there powers that would become useless were the player to choose a Null option that disables all knock and repel? Yes, of course, and it would be insane to choose to take a power that relied on knock/repel and then choose to disable those features.

 

As for players being ostracized if they choose to play a peacebringer or energy blast user without disabling knock, guess what, we're all being affected now.

 

I'm affected every time I have to waste a slot turning KB into KD.

I'm affected every time someone blasts a spawn out of my damage patch, aoes, taunt aura, etc.

I'm affected every time someone is running repulsion field while sitting next to the main aggro manager.

Why are only YOUR feelers important here?

 

I have my coffee, Lumi... what's your excuse?

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I get you. I just find it bizarre and, for lack of a better word, soft.

 

It'd be like playing outside as kids but it starts raining and everything is getting soggy... I'd rather be that kid that just plays and gets muddy. The ones that want to keep their good clothes clean and play inside can just go... But apparently, those inconveniences should be eliminated because we need control. Sterility. Predictability. Isolation from emotions like frustration, anger and annoyance. Everything should just be the good Matrix that existed before the movies. I just don't vibe with that...

 

I'll be sure to throw mud at you the next time we're playing in the rain together. Oh, sorry, you're in your prom dress and didn't want to get dirty at that particular moment? Oh well.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'll be sure to throw mud at you the next time we're playing in the rain together. Oh, sorry, you're in your prom dress and didn't want to get dirty at that particular moment? Oh well.

Well hopefully I get it recorded so I can put it on TikTok. It might go viral and I can earn some pocket change lol

[Bill Z Bubba]

29 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not."

 

That's probably because most of the time it absolutely feels like trolling.

 

Even when I'm on my PB and I click Dawn Strike accidentally, sending the entire spawn flying because I don't have room for that damn KB-KD IO yet.

 

And yet when any of my SG does it, we giggle it off, everyone takes the blame for doing it from time to time and, yet, even that light-hearted response shows that everyone is thinking the same damn thing: "yea, funny, amusing, haha, still annoying." Edit: I've been informed that the word "everyone" is false and some just find it damn funny all the time.

 

And then you have the folks that actually get off on being annoying with KB/repel. But at least we can gignore them or quit teams that have them around.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[SeraphimKensai]

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

can Null the Gull wipe my ass too?

You still wipe? Need to get that water blaster spraying up the hinny like it's a bidet.

 

[Marbing]

😄 

I know, I know, people can change their minds... I just thought this was funny...


I personally think that knockback is fine, sure it could use a few tweaks maybe here and there, but overall I think its fine when use appropriately. Not trying to be a "Lrn2Play" post but really knockback can be used very effectively. In some instances, adding KB to a power could be considered a positive, but also a negative. So if you take away KB (or even repel) all together you have to consider the powers that then become overperformers overall. I mean look at Bonfire, that power is insane as it is right now. Vastly outperforms any other KD patch with one Enhancement. So, I don't think it is as simple as... remove KB. But, I am open for discussion for maybe dialing some of the mag down a bit for a few powers, perhaps. 

 

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So you admit that the enhancement tax on knockback powers is a real thing while declaring that knock is a detrimental effect put in place specifically to balance a given power's overall effect.

 

I never said there was no KB tax.  The sentiment you're attributing to me came from someone else.

 

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Are there powers that would become useless were the player to choose a Null option that disables all knock and repel? Yes, of course, and it would be insane to choose to take a power that relied on knock/repel and then choose to disable those features.

 

As for players being ostracized if they choose to play a peacebringer or energy blast user without disabling knock, guess what, we're all being affected now.

 

And we can all address that granularly, one power at a time, allowing us to choose which powers we knock back with and which ones we knock down with.  That granularity would be lost with a Null option.  That's not a net positive change, forcing players to give up that granularity, it's a detriment.

 

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm affected every time I have to waste a slot turning KB into KD.

I'm affected every time someone blasts a spawn out of my damage patch, aoes, taunt aura, etc.

I'm affected every time someone is running repulsion field while sitting next to the main aggro manager.

Why are only YOUR feelers important here?

 

I have my coffee, Lumi... what's your excuse?

 

I'm not thinking of myself.  If I were, I'd be endorsing the suggestion to reclaim those 5 slots on my PB.  What I am thinking about is the net effect of reclaiming those slots and putting them to other uses on that PB, how that would affect game balance and that it constitutes a sizeable amount of power creep on the affected characters.

 

I'm willing to continue to pay my KB tax if it means the game is healthier in the long run, and not depriving other players of the option to keep a key KB power or two in their arsenal even if they want all of their other KB powers to be KD.

 

This isn't about me.  It would be nothing but a benefit to me, but I still oppose it because it would be detrimental to the game overall.  You're the first one to raise the roof when someone suggests something obviously power creepy or threatening to balance.  I'm pointing out that this is both of those things.  So do you want to keep swinging a sledgehammer at my head, or do you want to take a step back and think objectively?

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I know, I know, people can change their minds... I just thought this was funny...

 

Truth is truth. My hatred of it has indeed grown over time. Probably in direct correlation with how much I play my peacebringer. It was also never a problem for me on live since I soloed 99% of the time where now I'm teamed far more often.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I never said there was no KB tax.  The sentiment you're attributing to me came from someone else.

 

Fair enough. My apologies.

 

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

And we can all address that granularly, one power at a time, allowing us to choose which powers we knock back with and which ones we knock down with.  That granularity would be lost with a Null option.  That's not a net positive change, forcing players to give up that granularity, it's a detriment.

 

The devs could, yes. And they could do it without the IO tax. We know we can choose Master Brawler instead of Practiced Brawler on Sentinel SR, so too, could we choose knock and non-knock versions of the same power. Edit: But we both know: ain't nobody got time for that.

 

Concerning Peacebringers... if anything in this game DESERVED some gorram power creep, it'd be Kheldians.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Truth is truth. My hatred of it has indeed grown over time. Probably in direct correlation with how much I play my peacebringer. It was also never a problem for me on live since I soloed 99% of the time where now I'm teamed far more often.

I think it might be time to dust off my Peacebringer. Nothing against the KB but I just haven't played any of my magic robot characters in a long time, Mercury-Mage being the PB.

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Krimson said:

 

Then give me an enhancement that turns off group fly.

I wish. Sign me up.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Bzzt. Wrong. You can choose not to take the powers that cause the popup tray.

You can choose not to take the powers/power set that cause knockback.

 

Edit: This is my personal belief, but taking a set based on knockback and being upset it does knockback is like taking a fire set and being upset it burns.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[The_Warpact]

18 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

You still wipe? Need to get that water blaster spraying up the hinny like it's a bidet.

 

Oooo sexy!