The great Vigilance idea thread!

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Marbing said:

Understood, but this is the same Dev group that had data and testing for the i13 PvP changes. So, yeah idc what they thought was the case because their data was often just the loudest voice in the room. But yes agree to disagree. I think the +recharge is a good compromise to replace the +dmg and makes more sense imo. Their primary is Support so their inherent should focus on things that make that better in some way. 

 

Ehhhh the pvp changes were a lot more complex (and pvp in general) than if defenders level slower. Paragon's point (and one I agree with) is that everyone should be able to level at a reasonable rate when a team is not there. They did not intend to make only support toons. It's why they don't have an AT that does no damage or doesn't have a primary or secondary that does damage, even though it was popular in other mmos before COH.

 

But I'll leave the argument there. Agree to disagree.

 

+Recharge just isn't that impressive to me. If you want to improve the strength of their buffs and debuffs I'd say THAT DIRECTLY focuses more on their role. (But some would say that would be a balance nightmare).

 

I'm fine with any change except replacing the +dmg.

Edited April 13, 2022 by golstat2003

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

+Recharge just isn't that impressive to me. If you want to improve the strength of their buffs and debuffs I'd say THAT DIRECTLY focuses more on their role.

Hence why me and others suggested a +special in combo with other things. +recharge directly effects DPS and in some cases more than +dmg does. Built in Endurance reduction would make them a more inherently efficient AT than most as well as helping with overall build flexibility. I am not saying it’s perfect but imo it certainly gives a lot to replace that +dmg.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Marbing
Grammar

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Maybe I'm just the oddball that actually thinks Vigilance is fine as it is? It provides very good buffs that are needed when soloing.  Defenders in generally aren't lacking too much to me, they have a lot going for them.

 

No, I think so too. Defenders were designed for a role they can play perfectly with no inherent power. The solo damage boost is a nice way to shore up their biggest weakness, though.

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 hours ago, Marbing said:

I think the +recharge is a good compromise to replace the +dmg and makes more sense imo. Their primary is Support so their inherent should focus on things that make that better in some way. 

I disagree.

 

Endurance Cost Reduction is an ability that helps all Defenders. Anything else will only help some kinds of Defenders.

 

+Recharge literally does not help Force Field or Sonic Defenders, while it makes Empaths far more powerful. +Heal only helps a Empaths and a few others. +Special could end up making Force Field and/or Sonic Defenders overpowered while not really helping Empaths that much.

 

But Endurance Cost Reduction helps every Defender of every powerset.

 

Now, in one of my last posts I recommended a scaling Endurance Cost Reduction that went up to -70%, and some of you thought that was crazy. Well, there's such a thing as a "ghost bonus." I'm sure that Games Theory probably has a specific term for this that is different, but I'll stick with this term ghost bonus for now.

 

Hypothetical example: let's say someone does the math and determines that a Defender really only needs -40% Endurance Cost Reduction in order to not have endurance issues anymore. But what if we give them a -70% ECR? Well, that extra -30% is a bonus that doesn't end up doing anything. It's not really helpful. It's a "ghost bonus." It makes the player feel good to have a Huge Number(TM), but in the end it doesn't really matter.

 

But what does matter is than an Endurance Cost Reduction will benefit all Defenders; Storm, Force Field and Empath.

[Marbing]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I disagree.

 

Endurance Cost Reduction is an ability that helps all Defenders. Anything else will only help some kinds of Defenders.

 

+Recharge literally does not help Force Field or Sonic Defenders, while it makes Empaths far more powerful. +Heal only helps a Empaths and a few others. +Special could end up making Force Field and/or Sonic Defenders overpowered while not really helping Empaths that much.

 

But Endurance Cost Reduction helps every Defender of every powerset.

 

Now, in one of my last posts I recommended a scaling Endurance Cost Reduction that went up to -70%, and some of you thought that was crazy. Well, there's such a thing as a "ghost bonus." I'm sure that Games Theory probably has a specific term for this that is different, but I'll stick with this term ghost bonus for now.

 

Hypothetical example: let's say someone does the math and determines that a Defender really only needs -40% Endurance Cost Reduction in order to not have endurance issues anymore. But what if we give them a -70% ECR? Well, that extra -30% is a bonus that doesn't end up doing anything. It's not really helpful. It's a "ghost bonus." It makes the player feel good to have a Huge Number(TM), but in the end it doesn't really matter.

 

But what does matter is than an Endurance Cost Reduction will benefit all Defenders; Storm, Force Field and Empath.

I intended the +special to include +heal, +def buff, +def debuff, +tohit buff, +tohit debuff, and +end mod (I could be missing one…) . And I know that +recharge doesn’t help FF as much, it does however help Sonic because of liquify. While +special would help FF and Heal it wouldn’t help Sonic as much (because it’s a resistance centric set). But also FF needs help as is in it’s current state it is underperforming in comparison to sets that can do the same things but better. IMO so FF may need to be addressed separately anyways, this same may go for Sonic as well to a lesser extent. And I agree that endurance reduction helps all sets, that’s why I included it in my original proposal, maybe it needs to be higher? I think that +recharge makes more sense than +dmg because it helps the Defender primary more than +damage does while also still giving them a DPS increase. IMO

 

I have no problem with the +dmg staying if it’s going to cause a mass exodus of players. But, I will never agree that it is necessary. 
 

Like I said it may not be perfect but that was my logic behind it. 
 

And I don’t think your change was bad, the numbers may be a bit high, but I understand what you were trying to accomplish. Though I do like @arcane’s idea of completely abolishing the solo vs team dichotomy of the inherent in favor of something that is consistently beneficial at all times.
 

[arcane]

47 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I disagree.

 

Endurance Cost Reduction is an ability that helps all Defenders. Anything else will only help some kinds of Defenders.

 

 

Except for every single defender that has built themselves to be able to solo self sufficiently.
 

If you build to be able to solo, however rarely or occasionally, you’ve built your character to run well without the endurance discount, rendering it completely useless when you do get it.

 

There’s plenty of good inherents that don’t synchronize well with one or two powersets. Vigilance is the only I can think of that’s trash on all of them under fairly common circumstances.

Edited April 13, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

44 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I have no problem with the +dmg staying if it’s going to cause a mass exodus of players. But, I will never agree that it is necessary.

I completely agree that it's not necessary. My next answer will explain why. My only objection to removing it is that Luminara will kill us both, and no one really wants that.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Marbing said:

And I don’t think your change was bad, the numbers may be a bit high, but I understand what you were trying to accomplish. Though I do like @arcane’s idea of completely abolishing the solo vs team dichotomy of the inherent in favor of something that is consistently beneficial at all times.

Ok, I like consistency, and I'd even be ok with Defenders being great on teams and not really even being able to solo.

 

Every AT has a specialty. Scrappers are solo warriors. Tankers are battlefield control and team protection specialists. And so on. The entire purpose of Defenders is to support and strengthen a TEAM. Every power they have, including the Inherent, is one that is supposed to support and strengthen a team. Any ability they get that doesn't help the team literally goes against the entire purpose of the AT.

 

The problem with Vigilance currently is that it always benefits all Defenders when soloing, but it does not benefit all Defenders when teaming.

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The problem with Vigilance currently is that it always benefits all Defenders when soloing, but it does not benefit all Defenders when teaming.

This is the main problem I have with it right now. It basically encourages solo play because you lose your best benefit on a team. And on a team you only gain a benefit when you either a) aren’t doing your job well, or b) your entire team is trash against the content you are attempting.

[Luminara]

46 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

My only objection to removing it is that Luminara will kill us both, and no one really wants that.

[Marbing]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I would really like your ideas for improving Vigilance. When you have a chance. 

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I would really like your ideas for improving Vigilance. When you have a chance. 

He’s stated before that Defenders are victims of discrimination so buckle up

[Marbing]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

He’s stated before that Defenders are victims of discrimination so buckle up

Oh I know, I have read his stuff before. But I do really want to solve this problem so his input is welcome and given the topic likely inevitable anyways. So long as it doesn’t come with snark and comes with an open mind.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'd even be ok with Defenders being great on teams and not really even being able to solo.

Every AT should be able to solo. Some will do so better than others. Scrappers are no more solo warriors than any other AT. I've seen scrappers that played tank for the team by virtue of doing enough damage indiscriminately that the mobs focus on them. Hells, I've been that scrapper pulling aggro away from the team tanker and keeping the mobs off the blasters and controller. I've seen tankers that only played solo. I've made tankers strictly for being able to play solo, though I still vastly prefer brutes for their offensive primaries over the tanker's offensive secondaries. No AT is locked into a team only or solo only style. Even before the inherents were applied or CoV was launched, every AT was meant to be able to solo per the devs at the time. Defenders, controllers, and dominators may work best on a team, but they still need to be able to solo content. Now that I have that off my chest... back to the topic.

 

If the point of Vigilance is to make the defender more useful to the team while shoring up their pre-inherent abysmal damage output, then why the opposition to simply expanding Vigilance? Reduce its benefits to a flat bonus for simplicity's sake, and expand what the bonus applies to. If "specials" is the all-encompassing term for the secondary effects such as -recharge, -def, -res, +HP, et al., then simply make Vigilance grant a +10% bonus to all special effects the defender applies while on a team, and only while on a team. And while solo only, Vigilance retains the +30% damage boost.

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I would really like your ideas for improving Vigilance. When you have a chance. 

 

12.5% chance for a Break Free on the defender when afflicted by Holds, Stuns or Sleeps, increasing by 12.5% per living teammate; +/- ?% Special (Defense Strength, ToHit Strength, +Resistance (not -), Heal, Absorb, Regeneration, Endurance, Recovery, -Recharge (not +)), scaled by both defender HP and team HP (multiply one by the other to determine final effect).

 

No-one sleeping on the job can be considered vigilant.  The purpose of the Break Free effect, though, is not simply to adhere to a word.  Words can change.  The name of the inherent can change.  That's not what's important.  What's important is that a defender who's doing nothing but watching is a defender who's not playing, not participating, not engaging, not contributing.  We log in to play, not to count the seconds while watching a critter beat the green out of the green bar.  There's nothing participatory or engaging about that.  It's not even dramatic or fascinating to watch, the enemies don't suddenly go into incredible animations or stop to monologue as we crumble under their assault, like a movie, it's just frustrating.  And we want our teammates to contribute, and we want to contribute when we're teamed.  A mezzed defender contributes diddly squat, making more work for the rest of the team, not only forcing them to fight harder and longer to finish, but also to protect or resurrect the defender.  The defender is there for a reason, that reason is not to freeload or put an extra burden on others.

 

Note that this is not true status protection, and it doesn't nudge the archetype out of balance.  The Hold/Stun/Sleep has to occur before the Break Free effect applies, which means enemy-affecting toggles still drop, go into recharge and have to be restarted, and self- and ally-affecting toggles still suppress momentarily.  It's also a very small chance when solo, so it's not like defenders will be emptying their inspiration trays of Break Frees, but it is still a chance, and because that chance scales with team size, it gives players a better encouragement to team than a shitty Endurance discount.  It's not status protection, it's a chance to not have to sit out 5-10 seconds of mez, a chance to persevere despite having been mezzed, a chance to do something other than scramble for the Break Free key or Rune of Protection or... whatever.  We might still have our large intestines removed and used as garlands, but at least we'll have a chance to go down fighting.

 

But that's not enough, because simply being capable of acting doesn't imply defending.  I've advocated stuffing some +/- Special into Vigilance in the past, so there it is.  It fits the thematic nature of defenders, but in this case, it's also beneficial in both solo and teamed environments.  It should scale with both the defender's health and the team's health to make it work that way.  That makes it at least somewhat useful solo, but gives it real impact on a team, and reflects what a defender is and does.  The odds are against the team, the chips are down, things are starting to look grim, and the defender is stepping up with stronger powers and helping the team turn the tide.  Making the Special affect both buffs and debuffs is critical, though.  It has to be as good for that Force Fielder or Empathy defender as it is for the TA.  As buffs and debuffs use whatever scales and modifiers are in effect at cast time (unless they're pseudo-pets), utilizing the bonus would require re-application of buffs/debuffs reactively, and that requirement provides the necessary restriction to prevent it from being unbalanced.  But it also provides incentive to use the secondary sets.  Blasting with /Dark would impose slightly stronger -ToHit, /Elecs would drain a bit more endurance or impose slightly greater -Recovery, sets with -Recharge would delay enemy attacks by another fraction of a second or longer, et cetera.  +/- Special isn't perfect in the case of secondaries, as there are some with flaming bags of dog shit for a secondary effect (like Archery), but it would give every defender something, either in their primary or secondary, that benefits in some way.  And, again, that's better than shaving a couple of points off of the cost of powers which defenders had no reason to use, or couldn't use because they were put in a time-out for existing.  Essentially, everything a defender is doing should, in some way, reflect being a defender.  This would take a big step toward accomplishing that.

 

Furthermore, since the defender's enemy-affecting toggles have dropped, even if they're on a full team, when they've been mezzed, that creates an advantage for the enemies and gives impetus to the defender's immediate action.  Those debuff toggles aren't going to be recast instantly, but every defender has something else he/she can do, and this gives him/her both reason to do it and the expectation that it will make a difference.  Fall back to plan B, whether that's using another toggle right away, or blasting and relying on increased debuff strength, or whipping out that Aid Other you've been denying you had in your build.  Whatever the defender decides to do, it's going to have more weight, and it helps buy time until they can lay down the stronger effects.

 

I have no issue with Vigilance as it stands, though.  I have no issue with defender damage being the lowest.  I have no issue with toggles dropping.  I have no issue with being mezzed for a week or carrying 20 Break Frees just to play a character.  I have no issue with buffing defenders being restricted in a way debuffing defenders aren't.  What I have an issue with is all of these things collectively applied to defenders and corruptors.  By themselves, each individual restriction is reasonable.  All of them together, they're repressive and detrimental to both archetypes, and to the players, and to the long-term health of the game.  Making Vigilance more appropriately reflect the concept of defending, as it applies in Co*, could be sufficient to resolve most, if not all, of my complaints about the archetype as it exists in the current game, and that scaling +/-Special should go a long way toward improving the archetype for others in end-game content, where a lot of complaints have been seen.  Taking defenders over the top has never been my goal, I just want the act of playing a defender to stop feeling like a punishment for selecting an archetype still saddled with restrictions designed for an entirely different game.

And if you want to shuffle off the 30% +Damage at that point, fine.  I'm not going to grab my crossbow, chainsaw and meat grinder and start looking for people.  I wouldn't have to, because even one fewer Break Free in my inspiration tray is one more Rage I can carry if I decide I need a little more damage.  I can live with that.

[PeregrineFalcon]

You know Luminara, I've been waiting for your post in this thread. I was planning on a long, point-by-point response that started with "Buckle up, cupcake!" But now, having read your post, I'm just going to say:

 

I agree with you.

[arcane]

Of course he wants mez protection, who could’ve guessed?

 

More “Defenders and Corruptors are being punished” crap. Classic. What a steaming pile of garbage.

 

Changed my reaction to laughing since this degree of incompetence and blatant bizarro world untruths just has to be parody. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

Dang it, @arcane. I was about to make a cats and dogs living together, end of world is happening right now comment, and you went and dashed it.... 😄

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Dang it, @arcane. I was about to make a cats and dogs living together, end of world is happening right now comment, and you went and dashed it.... 😄

Sorry bud, can’t do it. Might be ok if a total noob was arguing that two of the best AT’s in the game are being cruelly oppressed, but this cat has more than 10 posts.

[arcane]

I acknowledge I’m being a smidge mean because this year’s been hell on my mood, but we’re still deep within /jranger territory.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

12.5% chance for a Break Free on the defender when afflicted by Holds, Stuns or Sleeps, increasing by 12.5% per living teammate; +/- ?% Special (Defense Strength, ToHit Strength, +Resistance (not -), Heal, Absorb, Regeneration, Endurance, Recovery, -Recharge (not +)), scaled by both defender HP and team HP (multiply one by the other to determine final effect).

 

No-one sleeping on the job can be considered vigilant.  The purpose of the Break Free effect, though, is not simply to adhere to a word.  Words can change.  The name of the inherent can change.  That's not what's important.  What's important is that a defender who's doing nothing but watching is a defender who's not playing, not participating, not engaging, not contributing.  We log in to play, not to count the seconds while watching a critter beat the green out of the green bar.  There's nothing participatory or engaging about that.  It's not even dramatic or fascinating to watch, the enemies don't suddenly go into incredible animations or stop to monologue as we crumble under their assault, like a movie, it's just frustrating.  And we want our teammates to contribute, and we want to contribute when we're teamed.  A mezzed defender contributes diddly squat, making more work for the rest of the team, not only forcing them to fight harder and longer to finish, but also to protect or resurrect the defender.  The defender is there for a reason, that reason is not to freeload or put an extra burden on others.

 

Note that this is not true status protection, and it doesn't nudge the archetype out of balance.  The Hold/Stun/Sleep has to occur before the Break Free effect applies, which means enemy-affecting toggles still drop, go into recharge and have to be restarted, and self- and ally-affecting toggles still suppress momentarily.  It's also a very small chance when solo, so it's not like defenders will be emptying their inspiration trays of Break Frees, but it is still a chance, and because that chance scales with team size, it gives players a better encouragement to team than a shitty Endurance discount.  It's not status protection, it's a chance to not have to sit out 5-10 seconds of mez, a chance to persevere despite having been mezzed, a chance to do something other than scramble for the Break Free key or Rune of Protection or... whatever.  We might still have our large intestines removed and used as garlands, but at least we'll have a chance to go down fighting.

 

But that's not enough, because simply being capable of acting doesn't imply defending.  I've advocated stuffing some +/- Special into Vigilance in the past, so there it is.  It fits the thematic nature of defenders, but in this case, it's also beneficial in both solo and teamed environments.  It should scale with both the defender's health and the team's health to make it work that way.  That makes it at least somewhat useful solo, but gives it real impact on a team, and reflects what a defender is and does.  The odds are against the team, the chips are down, things are starting to look grim, and the defender is stepping up with stronger powers and helping the team turn the tide.  Making the Special affect both buffs and debuffs is critical, though.  It has to be as good for that Force Fielder or Empathy defender as it is for the TA.  As buffs and debuffs use whatever scales and modifiers are in effect at cast time (unless they're pseudo-pets), utilizing the bonus would require re-application of buffs/debuffs reactively, and that requirement provides the necessary restriction to prevent it from being unbalanced.  But it also provides incentive to use the secondary sets.  Blasting with /Dark would impose slightly stronger -ToHit, /Elecs would drain a bit more endurance or impose slightly greater -Recovery, sets with -Recharge would delay enemy attacks by another fraction of a second or longer, et cetera.  +/- Special isn't perfect in the case of secondaries, as there are some with flaming bags of dog shit for a secondary effect (like Archery), but it would give every defender something, either in their primary or secondary, that benefits in some way.  And, again, that's better than shaving a couple of points off of the cost of powers which defenders had no reason to use, or couldn't use because they were put in a time-out for existing.  Essentially, everything a defender is doing should, in some way, reflect being a defender.  This would take a big step toward accomplishing that.

 

Furthermore, since the defender's enemy-affecting toggles have dropped, even if they're on a full team, when they've been mezzed, that creates an advantage for the enemies and gives impetus to the defender's immediate action.  Those debuff toggles aren't going to be recast instantly, but every defender has something else he/she can do, and this gives him/her both reason to do it and the expectation that it will make a difference.  Fall back to plan B, whether that's using another toggle right away, or blasting and relying on increased debuff strength, or whipping out that Aid Other you've been denying you had in your build.  Whatever the defender decides to do, it's going to have more weight, and it helps buy time until they can lay down the stronger effects.

 

I have no issue with Vigilance as it stands, though.  I have no issue with defender damage being the lowest.  I have no issue with toggles dropping.  I have no issue with being mezzed for a week or carrying 20 Break Frees just to play a character.  I have no issue with buffing defenders being restricted in a way debuffing defenders aren't.  What I have an issue with is all of these things collectively applied to defenders and corruptors.  By themselves, each individual restriction is reasonable.  All of them together, they're repressive and detrimental to both archetypes, and to the players, and to the long-term health of the game.  Making Vigilance more appropriately reflect the concept of defending, as it applies in Co*, could be sufficient to resolve most, if not all, of my complaints about the archetype as it exists in the current game, and that scaling +/-Special should go a long way toward improving the archetype for others in end-game content, where a lot of complaints have been seen.  Taking defenders over the top has never been my goal, I just want the act of playing a defender to stop feeling like a punishment for selecting an archetype still saddled with restrictions designed for an entirely different game.

And if you want to shuffle off the 30% +Damage at that point, fine.  I'm not going to grab my crossbow, chainsaw and meat grinder and start looking for people.  I wouldn't have to, because even one fewer Break Free in my inspiration tray is one more Rage I can carry if I decide I need a little more damage.  I can live with that.

I really like this idea, way to think outside the box with the break free effect. I may lower the chance a tad, but it depends how often the check is… 10 seconds? 

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I really like this idea, way to think outside the box with the break free effect. I may lower the chance a tad, but it depends how often the check is… 10 seconds? 

 

12.5% allows it to easily scale up to a full team.  8 * 12.5 = 100.  I like keeping it simple, and varying the chance wouldn't be simple.  Complex maths should be reserved for advanced character design and refinement, not basic play.  A new player should be able to log in, make a defender, and just play without having to break out a spreadsheet and calculator to figure out what his/her chance to escape a mez is going to be every time the team size changes.

 

As for when, it should check the character's mez state every 2.50s (most toggles have an activation interval of 0.5-2.0s and duration of 0.75-2.25s, so 2.50s lets the mez drop/suppress toggles and allow critters a shot at pwning the character/team.  if it took 9 seconds to pop because the defender was mezzed 1s into the 10s timed check, the fight would probably decided by that point and the entire purpose of the effect would be moot), then, if the character is mezzed, roll for Break Free.

 

If there's a need for a lockout, make the effect wipe the mez state on activation, rather than a continued override like existing status protection, then cancel itself and lock itself out for X seconds.

[Major_Decoy]

If the idea is "you break out of controls faster" wouldn't you just do 200% mez resistance per team mate? With one team mate, durations are a third as long, with eight durations are 6% as long?

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

If the idea is "you break out of controls faster" wouldn't you just do 200% mez resistance per team mate? With one team mate, durations are a third as long, with eight durations are 6% as long?

 

Resistance would work.  It might need to scale more at the low end of team size, as smaller teams would lean more heavily on a defender, but I wouldn't have any objection.  There wouldn't be any need for a lockout or a check interval if it were Status Resistance.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Marbing said:

Oh I know, I have read his stuff before. But I do really want to solve this problem so his input is welcome and given the topic likely inevitable anyways. So long as it doesn’t come with snark and comes with an open mind.

 

That assumes everyone agree it's a problem. We don't.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

Of course he wants mez protection, who could’ve guessed?

 

More “Defenders and Corruptors are being punished” crap. Classic. What a steaming pile of garbage.

 

Changed my reaction to laughing since this degree of incompetence and blatant bizarro world untruths just has to be parody. 

 

The break free idea would be the ONLY thing I would give up the +damage on vigilance for. So let's just say I VEHEMENTLY disagree with this post.