The great Vigilance idea thread!

[arcane]

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It cannot be essentially completely impossible when even using Cardiac I have END problems on several characters. I don't use Ageless, but then again I prefer the heal of Rebirth and the resistance of Barrier since I hit those as my panic buttons.

Yeah, Ageless Core is the most powerful. You pick that if you’re serious about not having endurance problems.

 

103 characters, 0 with endurance problems 🙂
 

If you’re serious about skipping Ageless on high endurance combos, you need to pair Vigor/Cardiac with more endurance cost reduction enhancement. My Rad/Rad and Poison/Ice defenders have heavy investment in that area and they both run Clarion without a hiccup. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

On a side note, I don't know why we keep doing this.

 

We keep posting suggestions but none of them ever get implemented. I feel like the whole Suggestions & Feedback subforum is just a catspaw. A ruse that was implemented to keep people from bothering the devs. A way to make people think they're listening to us when, in fact, they just ignore this subforum and do whatever they were going to do in the first place.

 

Has anyone ever seen a single one of these suggestions implemented in game?

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

On a side note, I don't know why we keep doing this.

 

We keep posting suggestions but none of them ever get implemented. I feel like the whole Suggestions & Feedback subforum is just a catspaw. A ruse that was implemented to keep people from bothering the devs. A way to make people think they're listening to us when, in fact, they just ignore this subforum and do whatever they were going to do in the first place.

 

Has anyone ever seen a single one of these suggestions implemented in game?

I bet that change that made it faster to apply 5 enhancement boosters was a suggestion once. 
 

But yeah you make a good point 😢

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

On a side note, I don't know why we keep doing this.

 

We keep posting suggestions but none of them ever get implemented. I feel like the whole Suggestions & Feedback subforum is just a catspaw. A ruse that was implemented to keep people from bothering the devs. A way to make people think they're listening to us when, in fact, they just ignore this subforum and do whatever they were going to do in the first place.

 

Has anyone ever seen a single one of these suggestions implemented in game?

I’ve had the same thought. I wonder how much the devs even consider the suggestions. You rarely see feedback about ideas, even ones that gain steam among the community. Not that I am complaining, I still get to play CoH again which is great! But, yeah your point is felt.

[Vanden]

15 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Has anyone ever seen a single one of these suggestions implemented in game?

 

The Bombardment set was conceived and named here.

 

They've also got something in the works that I've seen suggested here several times.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Vanden

[TheZag]

16 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Has anyone ever seen a single one of these suggestions implemented in game?

 

And being able to dismiss your detective contact to get a new one was suggested here.

 

But overall,  no.  Not many of the suggestions make it into the game.

 

For vigilance,  im of the opinion that the soloing portion is of very little importance when considering the game as a whole.  Who can solo and how difficult a mission they can solo doesnt make much difference.  Come find me when a solo defender can clear faster then an equally equipped team.  So we are left with whether the teaming portion of vigilance sucks or not.

 

Id say endurance reduction on a team is a joke.  The enemies die faster,  someone is usually holding the agro,  there are buffs for days going around.  The team side of vigilance should be recharge reduction for their primary only and then a small amount of +heal/buff/debuff for additional team members and only because there are some defender primaries where +recharge doesnt matter much.  And not crazy values either,  a full team should give equal or less then a single SO worth of buff in the respective categories.  

[SeraphimKensai]

I think a couple of people hit the nail on the head with a really good idea of having a +special based on target HP (whether the target is an enemy or ally) where instead of having a chance to increase damage like Corruptors do, the +special could proc buff would apply to the defender themselves so that it increases the magnitude of buffs or debuffs being applied.

 

The effects of the +special would boost heal, regen, recovery, defense, and  resistance of allies, and debuff the regen, recovery, defense,  and resistance of enemies. The defender buff to themselves would not add any effect not readily available in a power as it just applies a magnitude value adjustment.

 

Alternatively as a suggestion, I could get behind giving the defender a low chance to create a targeted AoE effect (say 25 ft radius) on an enemy that only targets allies and gives a buff to defense debuff resistance, end drain resistance, slow resistance and regen debuff resistance of 25% non-stackable, for 30 seconds.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

34 minutes ago, TheZag said:

But overall,  no.  Not many of the suggestions make it into the game.

Hey, three is still three more than I thought there were. I've been on a LOT of video game forums over the years and I don't think I've seen three suggestions from the player base make it into any other game ever. So Homecoming has a good track record there.

 

Thanks for answering my question, gentlemen.

[Doomguide2005]

 

13 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

 

Alternatively as a suggestion, I could get behind giving the defender a low chance to create a targeted AoE effect (say 25 ft radius) on an enemy that only targets allies and gives a buff to defense debuff resistance, end drain resistance, slow resistance and regen debuff resistance of 25% non-stackable, for 30 seconds.

 

I assume you mean non-stackable for the individual caster.  Of course that then has to be balanced against making 8 defenders even more ridiculously potent against content than they are already.  

 

PS:  And while the new Advanced Difficulty seen in Aeon isn't a response to a single specific suggestion it's equally clearly a response to numerous threads requesting more challenging content in general.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[SeraphimKensai]

17 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

I assume you mean non-stackable for the individual caster.  Of course that then has to be balanced against making 8 defenders even more ridiculously potent against content than they are already.  

 

PS:  And while the new Advanced Difficulty seen in Aeon isn't a response to a single specific suggestion it's equally clearly a response to numerous threads requesting more challenging content in general.

I honestly was thinking non-stackable from any defender so we don't get a team capped of Debuff resistance protections constantly running an 8 defender tf. I figured each application would just reset the duration so it doesn't completely trivialize debuffs on a team.

[Doomguide2005]

39 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I honestly was thinking non-stackable from any defender so we don't get a team capped of Debuff resistance protections constantly running an 8 defender tf. I figured each application would just reset the duration so it doesn't completely trivialize debuffs on a team.

     Right, it's a balance to be had between getting too much benefit and pushing too hard for or against a specific team composition. 

     I think part of the issue of coming up with new ideas for Vigilance is the sheer variety of abilities covered by Defender primaries.  Ideas that really help a Storm vs an Empath vs FF are diverse especially when viewed through a lens of multiple Defenders and keeping it beneficial without becoming overpowering.   In turn that's because the greatest strength of support in general and defenders specifically is the multiplicative synergy of their abilities.  Then while it hasn't come up yet (directly) there's the SO only/pre-Incarnate vs post Incarnate complication.  Vigilance ideally needs to be a useful inherent at and for essentially all levels of play.  In otherwords things like Endurance discounts shouldn't get ruled out simply because of Incarnate abilities, IO sets/builds, or because a particular primary has Recovery Aura, Heat Loss or Transference.  Unless, of course,  it's decided they should be factored in.

 

 

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     Vigilance ideally needs to be a useful inherent at and for essentially all levels of play.  In otherwords things like Endurance discounts shouldn't get ruled out simply because of Incarnate abilities, IO sets/builds, or because a particular primary has Recovery Aura, Heat Loss or Transference.  Unless, of course,  it's decided they should be factored in.

 

 

You’re more or less saying here “it needs to be useful at all levels of play” but then “endurance discount shouldn’t be ruled out because its still useful at lower levels of play”. Which is it?

[Marbing]

33 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I think part of the issue of coming up with new ideas for Vigilance is the sheer variety of abilities covered by Defender primaries.

I think this is why End Discount and +Special are particularly good ideas IMO.

[golstat2003]

22 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't get the hatred of the defender's +30% damage buff while solo. It was the defender's pathetic damage that made me stop playing them on Live. I almost didn't even try corruptors because I was under the impression they were just reversed primaries/secondaries defenders.

 

By all means, fix vigilance. Leave the damage boost when solo alone though. (You may now down vote this opinion. I think solo, they need the buff.)

 

(Edit: And I love how "endurance problems don't exist anymore at level 50". Most of my characters still struggle with endurance as incarnates.)

 

Nope. No downvote. Agreed on keeping the damage buff as is. It was the only reason I could stomach playing defenders back in the day, after they made the change. And no, I'm not going to play a f&^%ing proc monster build. I find those build terrible after trying them. EDIT: Terrible, as in not fun to build or play or to rely on procs for my damage.

Edited April 12, 2022 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

20 hours ago, arcane said:

I bet that change that made it faster to apply 5 enhancement boosters was a suggestion once. 
 

But yeah you make a good point 😢

 

Yeah I think it was. But yeah realistic with how small the homecoming team is now the likelyhood of ever getting any of these implemented before 2062 is pretty much impossible. This sub form is fun for fantasy brainstorming at least. 🙂 

[Doomguide2005]

53 minutes ago, arcane said:

You’re more or less saying here “it needs to be useful at all levels of play” but then “endurance discount shouldn’t be ruled out because its still useful at lower levels of play”. Which is it?

Heh

Vigilance useful at all levels is the goal as I understand.  

 

An Endurance Discount is an option as part of the benefits Vigilance conveys.  It should be useful at all levels.  Just because one may take certain powers or abilities such as Recovery Aura, Heatloss, Transference, Vigor or Ageless and render the Discount moot is not in and of itself sufficient reason to me to not consider such a Discount as part of the package for the entire AT.  

 

Edit:  personally though it is a pretty underwhelming benefit whose effect I've only really noted once since it first existed.  But maybe it's just subtle *shrug*  It would be nice if like Scrapper crits and Scourge etc. if you couldn't really build out of it, it being the benefit(s) of Vigilance.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Nope. No downvote. Agreed on keeping the damage buff as is. It was the only reason I could stomach playing defenders back in the day, after they made the change. And no, I'm not going to play a f&^%ing proc monster build. I find those build terrible after trying them. EDIT: Terrible, as in not fun to build or play or to rely on procs for my damage.

Just a reminder, you do get the choice to play what you wish how you wish to play it. That doesn’t mean the AT you picked is always going to fit your play style. There are and were A LOT of people that loved Defenders before the +damage buff, keep that in mind. I know because I was one of them. Soloing has never been a strength for a Defender, that’s because they are incredibly useful on teams. There are always trade-offs. Do I agree the damage boost made them more interesting? Yes. Of course it did. It was a straight buff with no downside or trade off. But, Defenders didn’t NEED a damage buff. What they needed was a complete rework of Vigilance. People were even asking for that on live. Hence why I started this thread. Though I know there have been others in the past.
 

Now, it’s okay you want to keep the +damage buff. That’s your opinion and as such you are entitled to it. I assume that’s because you think it fits the role you think defenders should have? If so, would you change anything about how vigilance works in it’s current state?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Marbing
Grammar also Changed wording because previous wording may have been rude, sorry

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Heh

Vigilance useful at all levels is the goal as I understand.  

 

An Endurance Discount is an option as part of the benefits Vigilance conveys.  It should be useful at all levels.  Just because one may take certain powers or abilities such as Recovery Aura, Heatloss, Transference, Vigor or Ageless and render the Discount moot is not in and of itself sufficient reason to me to not consider such a Discount as part of the package for the entire AT.  

 

Edit:  personally though it is a pretty underwhelming benefit whose effect I've only really noted once since it first existed.  But maybe it's just subtle *shrug*  It would be nice if like Scrapper crits and Scourge etc. if you couldn't really build out of it, it being the benefit(s) of Vigilance.

Yeah, sure, though I don’t think Recovery Aura, Heat Loss, whatever needs to be mentioned. The point of mentioning Incarnates is because, shortly after you hit level 50, *every* character in the game has access to tools that render endurance problems completely non-existent. (Assuming you avail yourself of the resources, Rud 😉 )

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Yeah, sure, though I don’t think Recovery Aura, Heat Loss, whatever needs to be mentioned. The point of mentioning Incarnates is because, shortly after you hit level 50, *every* character in the game has access to tools that render endurance problems completely non-existent. (Assuming you avail yourself of the resources, Rud 😉 )

     If that's the case then perhaps some freedom from endurance woes will be had without every Defender build requiring a particular pairing of Incarnate abilities (or primary power choices) will be available.  And weeee the goals of ED will finally be met 🤪.   

     I had all sorts of Incarnates on Live, much more limited here owing to computer death.  I think 1 Earth/Storm/Stone went Cardiac but generally I shoot for and manage endurance sustainability with my IO build independent of Incarnates.  I run way too often at sub 45 in exemplar not to do so.

     

 

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     If that's the case then perhaps some freedom from endurance woes will be had without every Defender build requiring a particular pairing of Incarnate abilities (or primary power choices) will be available.  And weeee the goals of ED will finally be met 🤪.   

     I had all sorts of Incarnates on Live, much more limited here owing to computer death.  I think 1 Earth/Storm/Stone went Cardiac but generally I shoot for and manage endurance sustainability with my IO build independent of Incarnates.  I run way too often at sub 45 in exemplar not to do so.

     

 

Oh sure, additional endurance discount could still help. And sure plenty of builds won't need Incarnates (OR Vigilance).

 

My problem with it is this: you don't get it all the time. And unlike a damage buff, that's not ok. Endurance management is a non-negotiable to me. Why would you intentionally build your character to fail solo or on small teams just to derive some benefit from Vigilance on a large team. So ofc I'm going to have to build my character to handle its endurance anyway. So after that, what then is the point?

Edited April 12, 2022 by arcane

[Doomguide2005]

52 minutes ago, arcane said:

Oh sure, additional endurance discount could still help. And sure plenty of builds won't need Incarnates (OR Vigilance).

 

My problem with it is this: you don't get it all the time. And unlike a damage buff, that's not ok. Endurance management is a non-negotiable to me. Why would you intentionally build your character to fail solo or on small teams just to derive some benefit from Vigilance on a large team. So ofc I'm going to have to build my character to handle its endurance anyway. So after that, what then is the point?

     Well I'm a lot like you in that respect, I wouldn't build without endurance sustainability as a general course.   And when I haven't is was a fairly deliberate act intended to push limits to see what I could do (imagine AR/Dev running Leadership with no Stamina ... ).  The first IOs I go for tend to be those +recovery/+end IOs.  So yeah personally an endurance discount isn't really all that.  But that's my preference and I'm not going to be all that upset if that's what Vigilance ends up offering because my fellow players perceive it as useful for their builds.

 

So maybe some sort of scaling Endurance Discount that always provides some benefit would be more predictably useful.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Marbing said:

Just a reminder, you do get the choice to play what you wish how you wish to play it. That doesn’t mean the AT you picked is always going to fit your play style. There are and were A LOT of people that loved Defenders before the +damage buff, keep that in mind. I know because I was one of them. Soloing has never been a strength for a Defender, that’s because they are incredibly useful on teams. There are always trade-offs. Do I agree the damage boost made them more interesting? Yes. Of course it did. It was a straight buff with no downside or trade off. But, Defenders didn’t NEED a damage buff. What they needed was a complete rework of Vigilance. People were even asking for that on live. Hence why I started this thread. Though I know there have been others in the past.
 

Now, it’s okay you want to keep the +damage buff. That’s your opinion and as such you are entitled to it. I assume that’s because you think it fits the role you think defenders should have? If so, would you change anything about how vigilance works in it’s current state?

 

Ehhhh I pretty much agree with the Devs idea (and based on the ACTUAL data they had, and players don't. Full STOP) that every AT should be able to solo at a reasonable rate when a team is not available. The idea that "defenders didn't need a damage buff" is nice opinion to have, but I'll go with the Paragon Devs, who had actual player data to back up the decision. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

I would not mind some of the ideas I've heard so far.

 

I DO NOT agree that the +damage should go in favor of anything else. In that case I would just say keep vigilance as is.

 

EDIT: To be clear think Defenders and Corrupters are in a pretty good place that I would focus dev attention on other ATs that might need some help, like Sentinels.

Edited April 13, 2022 by golstat2003

[Marbing]

7 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Ehhhh I pretty much agree with the Devs idea (and based on the ACTUAL data they had, and players don't. Full STOP)

Understood, but this is the same Dev group that had data and testing for the i13 PvP changes. So, yeah idc what they thought was the case because their data was often just the loudest voice in the room. But yes agree to disagree. I think the +recharge is a good compromise to replace the +dmg and makes more sense imo. Their primary is Support so their inherent should focus on things that make that better in some way. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Marbing

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Marbing said:

Understood, but this is the same Dev group that had data and testing for the i13 PvP changes. 

Savage.

 

Yeah, staking out the position that the Paragon devs had data and thus their choices must've been infallible - that theory's got a couple cracks. They nuked their own PvP population with incomprehensibly bad changes and didn't have the brains to undo a thing.

Edited April 13, 2022 by arcane

[Zeraphia]

Maybe I'm just the oddball that actually thinks Vigilance is fine as it is? It provides very good buffs that are needed when soloing.  Defenders in generally aren't lacking too much to me, they have a lot going for them.