Azrael Tank Ratings.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

My love affair with tanks is in direct proportion to my time on a Brute.

 

Play a Brute? Eventually get huffy at being squishy and go back to a Tanker.

 

Play a Tanker? Eventually get huffy at gently sandpappering a mob's HP bar and go back to a Brute.

Nah!  I'm perfectly content to take MONTHS to SSSSSSSLLLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY sand off every last HP.

And if there's a problem, I'll just continue fighting them to a standstill until they just give up.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Hyperstrike

[Infinitum]

36 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Because +HP affects HOW MANY HP (or fractional HP) you regenerate in a set time.

Tank.  Bare build, no enhancements.
HP: 1874
With auto-Health, that's 140% base regen.  10.93HP/sec

Now, just turn on DP.
HP: 2523
With auto-health, that's STILL 140% regen.
BUT, because the base HP is higher, 140% on 2523 = 15.3 HP/sec

Yes, more HP regenerating, but your actual REGEN PERCENTAGE VALUE doesn't change.

 

That is a 40% increase in your regen rate - regardless of what your HP bar is though.  I have heard it called healing factor before also - but either way the amount of health you gain per tic increases.  ie Regen. (not calling dull pain a regen tank though - but regen is a secondary mitigation source due to that.)

Edited June 15, 2022 by Infinitum

[SomeGuy]

Whoever told you Electric Armor is that low is wrong. It might be THE best tanker primary. If it isn't, it's up there. Crazy good damage resists and a really good debuff resist mix. And if I can cap all the resists on a Electric Armor Brute AND STILL do absurd damage, than it would be easier on a Tanker to build for not dying.

 

Before shutdown, my buddy had a ElA/TW tanker that would AFK tank incarnate trials. He just couldn't die. Epitomized how easy the class is and how little someone has to know the game to be effective.

 

Dear god, I shouldn't have ventured to far the rabbit hole reading some of these comments.

 

Def (don't get hit...take zero damage) - Resist (get hit for less damage) - HP - HP/s. Value in that order.

 

Resist based tankers do well with #2 due to how high their HP is. Combine that with the fact tankers can also still get a LOT of defense even if they aren't soft-capped? Yup. They don't die. Not sure why HP/s is so valued by some...you raise HP and HP/s automatically goes up, even if the % doesn't. You have to have an absurd amount of HP/s (think pre-nerf IH %) to start tipping those scales. A higher % of a higher # is...a higher #. HP > HP/s

 

You have 110 HP and 10% HP/s. Get hit for 109. You still live and can pop your heal, inspirations, or run the heck away. Get good and can still get back in the mix.

You have 100 HP and 10000000% HP/s. Get hit for 101. You dead. Dead tank/dps/heal is now doing zero tank/dps/heal.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

That is a 40% increase in your regen rate - regardless of what your HP bar is though.  I have heard it called healing factor before also - but either way the amount of health you gain per tic increases.  ie Regen. (not calling dull pain a regen tank though - but regen is a secondary mitigation source due to that.)

It's 40% because of HEALTH.  If you turn off Health, it's 100%.  And you really can't turn Health off anymore.

My point is that DP is a +HP power that happens to deliver additional Regen because of the way HP works.
NOT "Health boosts your Regen".

[Troo]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

Whoever told you Electric Armor is that low is wrong. It might be THE best tanker primary. If it isn't, it's up there. Crazy good damage resists and a really good debuff resist mix. And if I can cap all the resists on a Electric Armor Brute AND STILL do absurd damage, than it would be easier on a Tanker to build for not dying.

 

+1

 

Electric Armor is strong in my opinion as well.

Is it number one, nah, maybe situationally.

I also struggle with SR being #6. Maybe that much defense is wasted on a tank?

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yes, more HP regenerating

 

Exactly.

[Golden Azrael]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Whoever told you Electric Armor is that low is wrong. It might be THE best tanker primary. If it isn't, it's up there. Crazy good damage resists and a really good debuff resist mix. And if I can cap all the resists on a Electric Armor Brute AND STILL do absurd damage, than it would be easier on a Tanker to build for not dying.

 

Before shutdown, my buddy had a ElA/TW tanker that would AFK tank incarnate trials. He just couldn't die. Epitomized how easy the class is and how little someone has to know the game to be effective.

 

Dear god, I shouldn't have ventured to far the rabbit hole reading some of these comments.

 

Def (don't get hit...take zero damage) - Resist (get hit for less damage) - HP - HP/s. Value in that order.

 

Resist based tankers do well with #2 due to how high their HP is. Combine that with the fact tankers can also still get a LOT of defense even if they aren't soft-capped? Yup. They don't die. Not sure why HP/s is so valued by some...you raise HP and HP/s automatically goes up, even if the % doesn't. You have to have an absurd amount of HP/s (think pre-nerf IH %) to start tipping those scales. A higher % of a higher # is...a higher #. HP > HP/s

 

You have 110 HP and 10% HP/s. Get hit for 109. You still live and can pop your heal, inspirations, or run the heck away. Get good and can still get back in the mix.

You have 100 HP and 10000000% HP/s. Get hit for 101. You dead. Dead tank/dps/heal is now doing zero tank/dps/heal.

 

 

 

Good post.

 

Elec Armour (mine paired with the brutal War Mace) is one of my favourite Tanks.  Sapper proof.  Robust Psi resist.  A 'pocket' regen button.  What's not to like?  

 

Azrael.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

My love affair with tanks is in direct proportion to my time on a Brute.

 

Play a Brute? Eventually get huffy at being squishy and go back to a Tanker.

 

Play a Tanker? Eventually get huffy at gently sandpappering a mob's HP bar and go back to a Brute.

 

Before the improvements to Tanks, I rolled 'B****' versions of them and the damage difference was compelling.  'Madder Hulk gets...the stronger he gets...' (the more damage Hulk does etc.)  It was frustrating to come back to Tanks and be 'out of breath' and 'hit like a tap hammer.'  The Tank Patch created a night and day difference.  I haven't bothered much with B***** since.

 

On SOs, though, having tried B**** Shield/War Mace and Tank Shield/Elec Melee and MA post patch.  I barely get a scratch.  And I deal meaty Tank damage.  I used to get hurt alot with the B***** Shield/War Mace.

 

I don't think we're 'done' with damage improvements to Tanks.

 

Once we see 'Rage' crash on SS fixed, we may get a clue as to where Tank damage goes next.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

happens to deliver additional Regen

 

Yes

[Golden Azrael]

10 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

That is a 40% increase in your regen rate - regardless of what your HP bar is though.  I have heard it called healing factor before also - but either way the amount of health you gain per tic increases.  ie Regen. (not calling dull pain a regen tank though - but regen is a secondary mitigation source due to that.)

 

I remember on Live.  When I 1st wrapped my head around what Dull Pain can do. 'The Bigger Tick.'  (Read that carefully.)

 

Azrael.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

I remember on Live.  When I 1st wrapped my head around what Dull Pain can do. 'The Bigger Tick.'  (Read that carefully.)

 

Azrael.

 

Yeah whatever you call it - healing factor - regen - the long and short is you get more health back per second than you would without it.  What i consider a common mistake on invul builds (if you are building for strength) is to neglect dull pain and consider it a high recharge heal.  It is much more than that - i usually 6 slot it and keep it running as needed.

 

This goes for Hoarfrost - Ice Armor, and Earth's Embrace - Stone also.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Yeah whatever you call it - healing factor - regen - the long and short is you get more health back per second than you would without it.  What i consider a common mistake on invul builds (if you are building for strength) is to neglect dull pain and consider it a high recharge heal.  It is much more than that - i usually 6 slot it and keep it running as needed.

 

This goes for Hoarfrost - Ice Armor, and Earth's Embrace - Stone also.

If you're only getting hit 5% of the time, and shedding 90% of the damage, and the total incoming damage is LESS than your current regeneration rate...is there a need to do so?

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you're only getting hit 5% of the time, and shedding 90% of the damage, and the total incoming damage is LESS than your current regeneration rate...is there a need to do so?

 

Depends on the situation - in the Linea content and i am assuming the new ASF you would probably meed everything at your disposal.  At that point that extra 40% per tic might come in handy.

 

Either way i would rather have it than not have it based on the slight investment to get it.

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you're only getting hit 5% of the time, and shedding 90% of the damage, and the total incoming damage is LESS than your current regeneration rate...is there a need to do so?

 

Yes.

 

I have Dull Pain on my Invulnerability, Ice Armour, Stone Armour.  Because when ever you gamble, sometimes you lose.  (Even on my SR/Kat Scrapper which can have defences as high as 100+ Melee defence, I still have a Regen' Heal.)

 

I've found on my Defence based Tanks (with sky high Melee Defence) such as SR, Shield (which are backed by 'decent' resists.)  You can still get hurt.  Sometimes you can stand there on +4x8 Council and not receive a scratch.  And then you can come up against content that doesn't like Defence.  As such I have 'Regen' options (Ageless) for when I get 'unlucky' or the for 'that' mission content.

 

I tried Tanking with my Shield MA on a fire farm.  Because my defence for fire isn't as hot as my Melee defence?  I can get my wings singed from time to time.  I like the Ageless heal.  It puts it back.

 

My Tanks are usually '80-90%' builds.  I expect to get hurt at some point.  I'll always pick a regen' power if it's available.  Even if it's only a single choice eg. Dull Pain in Invul'.

 

I know it's common practice.  However.  I'm not prepared to dismantle my primary or secondaries to get that last 10%.  Which, ofc, can make a difference eg to adding stouter resists to eg. Shield IF you are prepared to sacrifice 'some' of your attacking powers.

 

We try and achieve the holy grail of Tank balance.  For me, a decent regen' power is part of that balance.

 

That said, I'd have a crack at Infinitum's Shield Street Justice build if I was imminent with a new roll tank.  It's kick az tastic.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

That said, I'd have a crack at Infinitum's Shield Street Justice build if I was imminent with a new roll tank.  It's kick az tastic.

 

That one is stronger - but i think my Shield/Electric is more fun honestly. You really do feel like a god when weilding lightning rod, shield charge, chain induction, thunderstrike, and mighty or ionic together.

 

Its awesome.

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

As such I have 'Regen' options (Ageless)

 

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

I like the Ageless heal.

 

Hello there! Do you mean Rebirth?

 

If so, do you like Core or Radial?

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Yes.

 

I have Dull Pain on my Invulnerability, Ice Armour, Stone Armour.  Because when ever you gamble, sometimes you lose.  (Even on my SR/Kat Scrapper which can have defences as high as 100+ Melee defence, I still have a Regen' Heal.)

 

I've found on my Defence based Tanks (with sky high Melee Defence) such as SR, Shield (which are backed by 'decent' resists.)  You can still get hurt.  Sometimes you can stand there on +4x8 Council and not receive a scratch.  And then you can come up against content that doesn't like Defence.  As such I have 'Regen' options (Ageless) for when I get 'unlucky' or the for 'that' mission content.

 

I tried Tanking with my Shield MA on a fire farm.  Because my defence for fire isn't as hot as my Melee defence?  I can get my wings singed from time to time.  I like the Ageless heal.  It puts it back.

 

My Tanks are usually '80-90%' builds.  I expect to get hurt at some point.  I'll always pick a regen' power if it's available.  Even if it's only a single choice eg. Dull Pain in Invul'.

 

I know it's common practice.  However.  I'm not prepared to dismantle my primary or secondaries to get that last 10%.  Which, ofc, can make a difference eg to adding stouter resists to eg. Shield IF you are prepared to sacrifice 'some' of your attacking powers.

 

We try and achieve the holy grail of Tank balance.  For me, a decent regen' power is part of that balance.

 

That said, I'd have a crack at Infinitum's Shield Street Justice build if I was imminent with a new roll tank.  It's kick az tastic.

 

Azrael.

Oh for the love of.

My point isn't "Don't take DP."!

My point is you can generally find bigger paybacks on survivability than SIX SLOTTING DP.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

We try and achieve the holy grail of Tank balance.  For me, a decent regen' power is part of that balance.

Regen/maximum health is normally an inefficient way to accomplish this.

 

The issue is the way that Resist/Defense scale. Let's assume that Dull Pain increases your Regen rate by 40%. If you've got 0% Resist and want to increase your survivability by 40%, you'd need about 28.5 Resist. However, if you've already got 86% Resist, those last 4% to reach 90% will give you the same 40% survivability boost. So Dull Pain goes from slightly worse than Temp Invulnerability to being ridiculously bad compared to Temp Invulnerability (as long as you're not exceeding the hard cap).

 

 

 

[Mezmera]

6 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Hello there! Do you mean Rebirth?

 

If so, do you like Core or Radial?

 

I like them both and have both crafted.  The regen one is more suited to my tank if I was doing it just for me but the hp buff one seems to me to be more optimal for squishy teammates for the sudden damage spikes, I'm not completely maxed out hp anyways so either one I'm fine with.  I'm always teaming on my tank so the hp buff one is typically what I feel gets better use. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

My point is you can generally find bigger paybacks on survivability than SIX SLOTTING DP.

 

My preferred slotting for most heals/absorbs/hp buffs is Heal/Recharge from Doctored Wounds, Numina and Preventative Medicine. I'm sure there's better slotting out there as that only gets the heal/absorb/recharge to 74.28% but I've found that's generally good enough.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Oh for the love of.

My point isn't "Don't take DP."!

My point is you can generally find bigger paybacks on survivability than SIX SLOTTING DP.

 

Not when you figure set bonuses in with it 😎

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

My point isn't "Don't take DP."!
 

 

 

Wait, I am totally missing something I feel like. Why wouldn't someone take Dull Pain if they aren't HP capped without it? Even if they are without it, why would you not want to take a heal? And Preventive Maintenance has really good Set Bonuses the whole way through.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Why wouldn't someone take Dull Pain if they aren't HP capped without it?

 

Take Dull Pain.

It would be the rare snowflake build that has enough hp, resist and regen to not take it. The slotting may just not need to be maxed out.

[SomeGuy]

I TOTALLY misread what Hyper said and was really confused. I was like "wait, he isn't a dumb...what is happening?"

[Myrmidon]

Azrael, any AT can handle Sappers provided they possess good Energy Defense.