Azrael Tank Ratings.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Sovera said:

The Trapdoor tests have shown this consistently with Tankers having 6-7 minutes times and brutes between 5-6 minutes. By the logic of the thing the Tankers ought to blaze with the extra radius but that's not the case.

 

And yet the trapdoor mission doesn't test mitigation values at all.

[Golden Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

*glances at his previous post to make sure it is a sub-4 minute clear posted by a Tanker*

 

Though, you got me thinking there.

 

For the 'new comer' Tank who wants to test out their Tanking chops out periodically as they level.

 

Are there basic certain without BUILD OUT TANK feats of strength tests eg.  Do a Hollows mission -1x8?, Complete the ITF as Captain of the Team or the 'advanced' Pylon test as they near L50 and on.

 

Azrael.

[Gobbledigook]

My Brute is a good 30+ seconds faster on a pylon than my Tanker and my Scrapper is a good 30 seconds faster than my Brute, so whats the problem?

 

Brutes still clear mobs faster and Tankers tank better. Grouped with buffs they are near equal.

 

Your own experiences may differ but that is just your opinion.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

 

 

I am not sure it is the only way. A good way certainly but there are other ways to buff outgoing damage. 

 

And it is not like SS and Rad do not exist for Brutes, and yet nobody has posted the like. Of course the Brute would need to build Fury, keep it up, does not hit as many targets....but details, details.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Erratic1

[Golden Azrael]

Perhaps the new Tanker should also realise.  It's not just Resistance, Luck or Health.

 

Tanking Tip.

 

Mitigation can come in coming enemy Damage can take many forms.

 

Damage+ buff.  -Dam incoming buff.  -To hit.  Slows.  An Ice Mat.  Power Sinking a Mob's End.

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

My Brute is a good 30+ seconds faster on a pylon than my Tanker and my Scrapper is a good 30 seconds faster than my Brute, so whats the problem?

 

Brutes still clear mobs faster and Tankers tank better. Grouped with buffs they are near equal.

 

Your own experiences may differ but that is just your opinion.

 

Dude, I posted a video of a Tanker clearing at record speeds. That is -=NOT=- opinion. That is objective, recorded demonstration.

 

As for opinion, it is your post full of the use of the word, "my".

Edited June 7, 2022 by Erratic1

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Brutes still clear mobs faster and Tankers tank better. Grouped with buffs they are near equal.

 

At damage cap the difference between them is about 10% or so. So I think when it comes to clearing trash, tank very handily beats brute unless we talk like, fire armor or savage, just due to how well those two sets scale with fury.

 

Brute will definitely win on a pylon or AV test, but it's a small advantage when you evaluate everything else. I think tanks are now overall stronger depending on the build. Brutes will generally exemp and level better, though.

 

I won't tell you brutes are bad now, they certainly aren't. Though I think the new toys tanks got gives them a serious edge in pretty much every metric besides dps benchmarking.

Edited June 7, 2022 by ScarySai

[Sovera]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet the trapdoor mission doesn't test mitigation values at all.

 

It's just math though. We have Mids.

 

We also know mitigation is not tested 100% of the time during the gameplay. We -know- this. We are not doing napkin math, we both routinely experience the content. A single spawn is annihilated in seconds by a full team and a few seconds more when solo. Once ten mobs are reduced to five are we ever in danger? When occasionally in danger we pop Barrier if not wanting to use an inspiration.

 

So it boils down to what? The AV fights? That one minute fight after one hour of a TF? Is this what the big war between Brutes and Tankers has been all about?

 

Tankers are tougher but do less damage. This is not napkin math but tests ran on the actual game. Brutes are squishier but do more damage. Proven by tests done in the game

 

You're pushing the idea Tankers are somehow stronger -and- tougher and I do not know from where this has come other than Tankers got a 50% radius buff as if important.

 

 

Give me one test you can think of where Tankers will do more damage and be tougher than a Brute and I can run it. I have changed my mind when I was wrong and I will do so again if I find its the same.

 

 

P.S. Still love ya even if we argue on this old topic.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I won't tell you brutes are bad now, they certainly aren't.

 

None of them are bad. Especially compared to non-melee ATs while solo.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Once ten mobs are reduced to five are we ever in danger?

 

Nope. Tanks are never in danger.

 

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Give me one test you can think of where Tankers will do more damage and be tougher than a Brute and I can run it. I have changed my mind when I was wrong and I will do so again if I find its the same.

 

False request. I stand by the statement that where tanks survive when brutes can't, while doing near brute damage, tanks are OP AF. Tank damage should NOT have been raised to where it is now. Full stop.

 

Edit: And by now we should ALL know I'm coming at this from a soloist mindset. Brutes on teams backed by buffs > than tanks and scrappers. Also, full stop.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[ScarySai]

Nictus Ambush would probably be a good start. @Sovera

 

The rad/ss was fully built to take advantage of tanker benefits. Double rage does more for a tank than it does for a brute. Procs let you ignore the rage crash, beta decay let's you proc more, rad's recovery and proc bombs gives you more leeway to build offensively without sputtering out of end from the combined rage/hasten crashes.

 

Couple all that with radius/target cap buffs for a monster character.

 

Though, something like rad/claw or bio/energy is also pretty insane with minimal proc abuse.

Edited June 7, 2022 by ScarySai

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

We also know mitigation is not tested 100% of the time during the gameplay. We -know- this. We are not doing napkin math, we both routinely experience the content. A single spawn is annihilated in seconds by a full team and a few seconds more when solo. Once ten mobs are reduced to five are we ever in danger? When occasionally in danger we pop Barrier if not wanting to use an inspiration.

 

If you're out running radio missions in PI with a full group of fellow 50s, all kited out, perhaps. But at that point why aren't we all playing Blappers?

 

If you're running with a less optimize team or using the new, higher difficulty settings, or dealing with specific events within TFs (or all of the above) then one's ability to survive comes into play.

[Erratic1]

In any event, it was not my purpose to turn this into another front in the Brute v Tanker war.

 

How about we drop that tangent or at least find it another home?

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Nictus Ambush would probably be a good start. @Sovera

 

Heck, half my tanks don't survive that. Even with Barrier. It took playing Invuln to find a tanker who could AFK in it. Challenge accepted though.

 

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Nope. Tanks are never in danger.

 

 

False request. I stand by the statement that where tanks survive when brutes can't, while doing near brute damage, tanks are OP AF. Tank damage should NOT have been raised to where it is now. Full stop.

 

Edit: And by now we should ALL know I'm coming at this from a soloist mindset. Brutes on teams backed by buffs > than tanks and scrappers. Also, full stop.

 

You can't think of a single test? Because 'content only Tankers can survive' requires at least some examples. Buffed ITF? Not sure most tanks will survive that either. Linea missions?

 

What contents have you done where your Brute was creamed but your Tanker managed to squeak by?

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Sovera said:

You can't think of a single test? Because 'content only Tankers can survive' requires at least some examples. Buffed ITF? Not sure most tanks will survive that either. Linea missions?

 

What contents have you done where your Brute was creamed but your Tanker managed to squeak by?

 

Both ITF with enemies buffed and 801 at the higher levels. But c'mon... I had to work at it. That's the damn point. The tanks I've leveled normally have been able to push the diff up FAR higher FAR earlier and thus leveled FAR faster than my brutes with their greater damage output.

 

Shit be broke, yo.

 

Edit: And I love you, too, and you know it!

Edited June 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Infinitum]

I think this is where incarnates should come in to play (we arent talking average content or average builds here) so - melee core is an option - it is there for a reason and it will keep a brute alive in those rare instances they need a little bit more.

 

I know everything these days is about damage - but it doesn't have to be - if you need the brute stronger do that and alternate it and barrier even if its really nasty content - problem solved and on average with most primary secondary options the brute is still pulling out more damage than a tanker.

 

My point is if you throw increased damage at both ATs the tanker will win, but if you throw dmg to the tanker and survivability to the brute you are in similar waters at that point.  But both ways it can't be.

 

I utilize every avenue but at the end of the day my brutes and tanks play very similar in slightly different ways - emphasizing survival.

 

That's just my play style preference.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Dude, I posted a video of a Tanker clearing at record speeds. That is -=NOT=- opinion. That is objective, recorded demonstration.

 

As for opinion, it is your post full of the use of the word, "my".

 

 

 It was just a general comment about Tankers being OP and not directed at you lol. 

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

 

At damage cap the difference between them is about 10% or so. So I think when it comes to clearing trash, tank very handily beats brute unless we talk like, fire armor or savage, just due to how well those two sets scale with fury.

 

Brute will definitely win on a pylon or AV test, but it's a small advantage when you evaluate everything else. I think tanks are now overall stronger depending on the build. Brutes will generally exemp and level better, though.

 

I won't tell you brutes are bad now, they certainly aren't. Though I think the new toys tanks got gives them a serious edge in pretty much every metric besides dps benchmarking.

If they are at damage cap then they are probably grouped and only contributing a small percent to the damage. So it doesn't really matter.  

 

But usually a Brute will out dps a Tanker and a Tanker will out Tank a Brute. 

[Sovera]

38 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Both ITF with enemies buffed and 801 at the higher levels. But c'mon... I had to work at it. That's the damn point. The tanks I've leveled normally have been able to push the diff up FAR higher FAR earlier and thus leveled FAR faster than my brutes with their greater damage output.

 

Shit be broke, yo.

 

Edit: And I love you, too, and you know it!

 

I'm three deaths in the first mission and pretty sure I should not have brought the Stone Armor Brute in since 41% defense debuff does a fat lot of nothing.

 

I'll try again with the Claws/Fire Brute since I did it with the Fire/Claws Tanker anyway.

 

Went fine until the ambush and now I'm three deaths in. TBH my tanker also just usually fails the ambush.... and now I remember I managed to pass it when I did the enemies buffed on the Tanker by having my invulnerable Lore pets tank for me. I should have done that with the Brute.

 

 

Tbh I was doing fine until the ambush. Overwhelming damage killing everything before they hurt back was a valid strategy as always, with Barrier as panic button. But now I need to put my mouth where the money is or we are back to gut feels.

 

E/N still hurts with just 60% resists.

[Sovera]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

If they are at damage cap then they are probably grouped and only contributing a small percent to the damage. So it doesn't really matter.  

 

But usually a Brute will out dps a Tanker and a Tanker will out Tank a Brute. 

 

The mythical 'at damage cap' existing in spreadsheets and in mythical scenarios where two Kins are running and managing to Fulcrum before someone sneezes and kills all minions.

 

Practical actual in game experience tells me the Kins manage to Fulcrum off the lieutenants and boss(es).

[Xandyr]

12 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Tanks are about layers.  

 

Azrael.

 I think you're confused...

[Golden Azrael]

16 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

I utilize every avenue but at the end of the day my brutes and tanks play very similar in slightly different ways - emphasizing survival.

 

 

''Fighting to survive...in a world with the dark-est powurr!'

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

17 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Nope. Tanks are never in danger.  (They are.  I do recall my health bar going down in Steel Canyon fighting Outcasts.)

 

 

False request. I stand by the statement that where tanks survive when brutes can't, while doing near brute damage, tanks are OP AF. Tank damage should NOT have been raised to where it is now. Full stop.  (They SHOULD.  And the HC Devs agreed.  Tanks used to hit 'like girls' on live.  The ran outta 'gas' and for all those 'love taps' they dished out.)

 

 

 

The Tank patch was a huge step in the right direction.  Which, to a beginner Tank or CoH player, they'll be grateful for, without knowing it.

 

In fact, I don't think the Damage for Tanks didn't go quite far enough.  I'd hand out a sustained 'Rage' button (without a crash...) or equivalent mechanism to ALL Tanks.  Giving it at least the values of 'Assault' from Leadership.  Or a double hit proc mechanic.

 

It's quite ok that each Tank gets it's own style of Damage Buff mechanic.  Energy recently got the Total Focus mechanic, Rage is awaiting a 'fix', Radiation armour has it's brilliant Tier 9 which buffs Res' plus Damage.  Shield has it's damage toggle.  Bio has an impressive T9.  Ice had a 'buff' pass.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

(Reply to Sovera on his consumate 'Holy Trinity' of Damage dealer Tanks Thread...) 

 

He has an approach that would soothe the ambitions of the 1st time Tanker!  So I'll repost it here in this 'Starter Guide for 'new' Tankers...

 

 

 

I like your '80-20' approach.

 

You don't HAVE to build an immutable tank.  You can build an AT (any AT...) to the point where it will give a good account for '80%' or 'most' of CoH's content.  (Ie.  It may not survive all edge cases.  It may not have the fastest Pylon Time.)

 

But if you build a very good (as opposed to 'Excellent') Tank which you can enjoy playing.  He can 'hang' with the big boys even if he's not the 'Superman' on the block.

 

I call this 'reach.'  Eg.  When you're leveling.  Weave.  '5%, you don't notice that.'  (I do.)  Then you take Cj.  Another 2.5%.  Then Manoeuvres.  Another 2.5-4%.  All of a sudden, you have At least ten per cent defence to all damage types.  Pop a luck and that's another 15% giving you a temporary 25%.  Add that to Resistances of 60-80% and you're a Tank that can handle themselves.

Obviously a build out can push you close the cap or past it depending on your trade offs.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

Tanking Tip.

 

SOME Tank attacking sets can fit Force Feedback Procs.  This can give a real turn of pace in your attack chain.  If you fit two of them in your attack set you can almost perma them against mobs (where they have an increased likelihood of rolling a '6'.  This can really close the gap on 'perma-hasten' (the holy grail of speed!)

 

This is something I only recently worked out to an efficient level.  Now I have some insanely fast Tanks.  Eg.  Shield/Elec.  Shield/MA.  (The latter, whilst being 'mainly' Single Target, I infused with extra tertiary AoE powers to have Council Mobs permanently on their back side whilst I unload the Mother Truck.)

 

Force Feedback kicks in....FORCE FEED BACK KICKS IN....HASTEN....AGELESS....*SHEER INTAKE OF STAMINA OXYGEN.

 

Azrael.