Azrael Tank Ratings.

[Golden Azrael]

23 hours ago, America's Angel said:

For regular content, any tank shouldn't die. So they're all pretty much equal. In terms of pure mitigation Dark/Dark trumps all.

 

For 4* relentless/hard mode? I'd go with a regen brute, or a sr/shield tank.

 

Dark/Dark Tank was a recent Tank roll for me.  I thought 'I'd done it all' with Dark/Dark/Dark Scrapper.  However, the 'Tank Patch' married to Dark/Dark on a Tank was pure revelation.  I love Dark Armour on a Tank.  The attacking 'radiating' AoE effects of the Tank seem to go hand in glove with Dark Melee too.

 

Many cite it's 'end problem...' but that CAN be fixed.

 

Dark Armour and Dark Melee swirls and weaves it's intoxicating malaise of dark power like some Sith Lord.

 

Azrael.

[America's Angel]

24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You can cycle most of that with invul and still have a greater starting position mitigationwise with invul with terms to res and def - and it should be a lot easier - because regen isn't as sturdy as invul by every stat except regen.

 

Over-arching point if you are doing it at all with regen - you can do it with invul.

 

Unfortunately that's not true. The lack of MoG to handle alpha strikes/debuffs, the lack of Barrier to handle alpha strikes, and the lack of Recon/Instant Healing really puts Invuln behind Regen when it comes to tanking 4* relentless. You also can't cycle Demonic due to its 10min recharge not playing well with having fewer things to cycle on an Invuln.

 

I wish I was wrong - the inv/ma is my main! But in all the playtests I've run on Beta, Regen pulls out ahead.

 

Gonna have a play later and see if cycling Unleashed Potential/Melee Hybrid/Aid Self might save my Invuln from the scrapheap. Wish me luck! 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by America's Angel

[Golden Azrael]

17 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

I agree Shield has tons of upside.  The only thing lacking on Shield is a heal and endurance management especially for those smelters.  The offensive clearing afforded you in Shield Charge plus the soft knockback control is quite strong.  

 

For me Rebirth just wasn't cutting it so I picked up Unrelenting which has been a fantastic addition.  Unrelenting is such a big power for this it has good offensive stats so I can stay aggressive while I'm getting healed which I can take advantage of thanks to Shield's great defense/resist/high hp ability plus it has some decent endurance buff and its a rez.  

 

I also went for Unleash Potential for the endurance boost plus the additional defense/regen boost I won't scoff at.  And there's always the Energy epic pool.

 

I really love my Shield tank for this and I've seen good things from Rad Armor.  A well thought out and played tank will typically shine on Relentless regardless but you still need good support roles for you and your team no matter.  

 

A choice post.

 

Shield Tank is another Tank I came later to.  (Shield Electric and Shield MA.)   Both a turbo charged builds with insane speed and AoE potential.  I boosted the Shield MA with additional 'out of set' AoEs like Spring Attack and Cross 'Smack' from Fighting Pool to give me 'moAR' AoE beat down.  Naturally, I took 'Mighty' Judgement as well.  All these stack with Dragon's Tail...and the Sense Shattering Shield Charge.  Needless to say, after I unless all that whoop Az on a mob...they're reeling with slithers of health for MA to smack-fu them into another universe.

 

RE: Rebirth.  I took this 'cause of no heal' and put a Heal Proc (regenerative) into Health.  It was 'enough' for the few times I got hurt (my melee defence is north of 70%.)  But I'll note your comments on Unrelenting. 

 

As for endurance.  I have tried Agility Alpha with Ageless Tier 4 left side.  Plus I have Hybrid Tier 4 Left side as well.

 

I have Focused Acc plus Physical Fitness. 

 

I also have a version with Cardiac Alpha with Assault Tier 4 Right.

 

Shield is a highly spoken of tank.  I can see why.  Put a couple of force feedbacks in there and even cooldowns like Lightning Rod become a regular part of your attack chain...and Shield Charge coming around much faster.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

Well on Shield tanks the DDR is quite comparable to SR.  Double stacking Active Defenses gets me to 90% DDR which I can maintain that double stack easily.  SR is an easy build but on tanks Shield gets to be so much more.  Other armors sure that DDR wrecks but Shield is right there with SR plus it has so many other things to bring to the table.

 

Shield also gets it's goodies (re: Defence) in all positions in the 1st Two armour tiers.  When the penny dropped on my head regarding this on a Tank (I'd previously done Shield/War Mace on a Brute) I was sold.  It was an Epiphany moment.

 

SR.  Mine has been most impressive.  With Glass Ceiling breaking positional Defence.  I paired mine with Street Justice.  (Both things I wanted to try on live before the plug got pulled.  As such, it was my 1st Tank I rolled when HC went 'Live.' 

 

No Shield Charge, though.  Any revisit by the devs?   I'd like the Tier 9 to give some offensive damage.  Call it 'vibrational' from moving so fast.  Aka.  Bullet Time.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Unfortunately that's not true. The lack of MoG to handle alpha strikes/debuffs, the lack of Barrier to handle alpha strikes, and the lack of Recon/Instant Healing really puts Invuln behind Regen when it comes to tanking 4* relentless. You also can't cycle Demonic due to its 10min recharge not playing well with having fewer things to cycle on an Invuln.

 

I wish I was wrong - the inv/ma is my main! But in all the playtests I've run on Beta, Regen pulls out ahead.

 

Gonna have a play later and see if cycling Unleashed Potential/Melee Hybrid/Aid Self might save my Invuln from the scrapheap. Wish me luck! 

 

 

Invul doesn't need a crutch like MoG to survive alphas.

 

Regen by all the numbers is still inferior to invul.  Invul is better suited to take alpha strikes than regen by a mile even with MoG running - especially when MoG drops and debuffers are involved on an ordinary +4/8 ITF.

 

My invul can just sit there - the regen - not so much.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Infinitum

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

Invul doesn't need a crutch like MoG to survive alphas.

 

Regen by all the numbers is still inferior to invul.  Invul is better suited to take alpha strikes than regen by a mile even with MoG running - especially when MoG drops and debuffers are involved on an ordinary +4/8 ITF.

 

My invul can just sit there - the regen - not so much.

 

I'm talking about solo tanking the Relentless (hardest difficulty) Aeon Strike Force. Have you tried it on your Invuln?

 

I've been trying to solo the first room on my Invuln and not had much luck.

 

If you've not tried it yet, you should! Good chance to see how durable a tank build really is in high end play.

[Hyperstrike]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:29 PM, Golden Azrael said:

 

 

 

9.  Elec Armour.  Psi.  Elec Emperor.  Pocket Regen.  Sign me up.

 

 

10.  Fiery Armour.  Burn, BURN everything 'regen' set.
 

 

 

 

 

Uhm.  NO.

Elec, Fire, and even Rad, are not *regen* tanks.

They are RESIST tanks.  Their ability to flat-out-mitigate (not avoid (Defense), not heal/regenerate) damage.

It is quite easily possible to cap out nearly all Resist values on these tanks.
And, even their non-optimal Resist values are still generally better than hybrid Def/Res and ACTUAL Regen tanks.

So let it be written.
So let it be done!

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

I'm talking about solo tanking the Relentless (hardest difficulty) Aeon Strike Force. Have you tried it on your Invuln?

 

I've been trying to solo the first room on my Invuln and not had much luck.

 

If you've not tried it yet, you should! Good chance to see how durable a tank build really is in high end play.

 

Yeah i do need to try that for sure - i will look into that for sure.

 

When i was helping to test regen and map out its deficiencies we used the ITF which i am assuming is less stringent than the ASF - they shredded the regen - it could hold out for a bit but once the gimmicks ran dry regen on its on folded so fast it was startling.

 

That is why i am having a hard time buying invul being worse than regen in anything - in fact.  I cant buy that nothing in my experience tells me otherwise.

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Uhm.  NO.

Elec, Fire, and even Rad, are not *regen* tanks.

They are RESIST tanks.  Their ability to flat-out-mitigate (not avoid (Defense), not heal/regenerate) damage.

It is quite easily possible to cap out nearly all Resist values on these tanks.
And, even their non-optimal Resist values are still generally better than hybrid Def/Res and ACTUAL Regen tanks.

So let it be written.
So let it be done!

 

Their secondary elements - healing flames on fire, energize on elec, and all of the absorbs of rad are all secondary mitigation effects of those sets - just like invul and shield have resist/ defense.

 

A strong case can be made of their aspects of regeneration - because they do exist - they are there to use and have strong regeneration/health aspects and prop up any deficiencies of those sets nicely.

 

So i think its fair to at least acknowledge the regen aspects they contain - because if you just rely on resistances its not going to work as well.

[Erratic1]

14 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Uhm.  NO.

Elec, Fire, and even Rad, are not *regen* tanks.
 

 

So am I setting myself up for heartache by approaching Rad as a hybrid set?

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Erratic1

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So am I setting myself up for heartache by approaching Rad as a hybrid set?

 

Nope.  The first time doing the special Vanguard fight in ASF since it went live with some top flight players the tank they brought and we did real well with was a Rad tank.  We had a few Colds which I believe fixed the Rad armor weakness. 

 

If I didn't feel like Id be cheating on my Shield tank I'd have made one of those, plus I hate the fx of the set.  You'll be well off with one of these.  

[Golden Azrael]

27 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Uhm.  NO.

Elec, Fire, and even Rad, are not *regen* tanks.

They are RESIST tanks.  Their ability to flat-out-mitigate (not avoid (Defense), not heal/regenerate) damage.

It is quite easily possible to cap out nearly all Resist values on these tanks.
And, even their non-optimal Resist values are still generally better than hybrid Def/Res and ACTUAL Regen tanks.

So let it be written.
So let it be done!

 

Nice pic.

 

But NOT so fast, Hyper!

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

14 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So am I setting myself up for heartache by approaching Rad as a hybrid set?

 

 

It's a Regen set.  

 

In all but name.  No heartache necessary.

 

Azrael. 

[Golden Azrael]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Their secondary elements - healing flames on fire, energize on elec, and all of the absorbs of rad are all secondary mitigation effects of those sets - just like invul and shield have resist/ defense.

 

A strong case can be made of their aspects of regeneration - because they do exist - they are there to use and have strong regeneration/health aspects and prop up any deficiencies of those sets nicely.

 

So i think its fair to at least acknowledge the regen aspects they contain - because if you just rely on resistances its not going to work as well.

 

Some armours, as Hyper says, 'may' well be resist based but their drive chains, at heart, are all 'Regen' Tanks in all but name.

 

You explained it very well, Infinitum.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Yeah i do need to try that for sure - i will look into that for sure.

 

When i was helping to test regen and map out its deficiencies we used the ITF which i am assuming is less stringent than the ASF - they shredded the regen - it could hold out for a bit but once the gimmicks ran dry regen on its on folded so fast it was startling.

 

That is why i am having a hard time buying invul being worse than regen in anything - in fact.  I cant buy that nothing in my experience tells me otherwise.

 

Regen has it's moments.  (Speaking for my Scrapper.  I do like MoG.  But I hear that Regen still has it's baubles hanging on the Developer X-Mas tree after they were pruned from the set.  If you take my meaning...)  I always found healing a somewhat 'reactive' approach where as Defence as more proactive in not getting hit in the 1st place.  An area where Invul' does SUPERBLY!

 

Even Invuln' has Dull Pain, a pocket regen button just as Elec Armour has it's 'pocket regen' button.

 

I tend to judge Tanks for their 'out of the box' capabilities, strengths and weaknesses according to the design (flaws?) they can have.

 

The beauty is circumventing these to achieve the Holy Grail of 'Tank Balance.'

 

Azrael.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

It's a Regen set.  

 

In all but name.  No heartache necessary.

 

Azrael. 

I will respectfully degree.

4 Resist powers.  Including the T9.

2 Regen powers.

2 +HP Powers.

Resist.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Regen has it's moments.  (Speaking for my Scrapper.  I do like MoG.  But I hear that Regen still has it's baubles hanging on the Developer X-Mas tree after they were pruned from the set.  If you take my meaning...)  I always found healing a somewhat 'reactive' approach where as Defence as more proactive in not getting hit in the 1st place.  An area where Invul' does SUPERBLY!

 

Even Invuln' has Dull Pain, a pocket regen button just as Elec Armour has it's 'pocket regen' button.

 

I tend to judge Tanks for their 'out of the box' capabilities, strengths and weaknesses according to the design (flaws?) they can have.

 

The beauty is circumventing these to achieve the Holy Grail of 'Tank Balance.'

 

Azrael.

A +HP/Heal power is, TECHNICALLY, a "Regen" power.
But it's not a set value.  As +HP will affect every Tank differently.
Your ACTUAL "Regen" value doesn't actually change.  You simply have a larger pool of HP to work from.

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

I will respectfully degree.

4 Resist powers.  Including the T9.

2 Regen powers.

2 +HP Powers.

Resist.

 

Sho'nuff!!!

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

I will respectfully degree.

4 Resist powers.  Including the T9.

2 Regen powers.

2 +HP Powers.

Resist.

 

'Only a Master of Evil, Darth.'  Kenobi.

 

And respectfully disagree we will. 😉  But your builds are Kool.  No disagreement on that one.  Clearly a well versed authority on building.

 

If I have 'only' Dull Pain.  It's still some form of 'Regen' Tank.  Ergo, why I call the Elec Armour a 'pocket rocket' Regen Tank.  Bio and Rad have whole VATs of stamina (which is a fundamental part of the whole regen kick, so much so, Regen has 'Quick Recovery' and Rad/Bio have their own semantical variations...) and heals and absorbs.  Fire has it's heal and stamina returns.  Ice has it's dull pain and stamina return.

 

But these are things for the beginner Tank to consider.  How much heal or stamina do they want?  How of that will they get if they pick a Defence or Resistance based Tank.

 

Even my SR/Shield Tank needs to take an incarnate 'Regen' power 'just in case.'  They don't have any 'regen' at all (unless you count True Grit and the combination of Health for Shield.)  With Defence, whenever you gamble, sometimes you lose.

 

Most of the Tanks mentioned in this 'Starter Guide Top Ten' are 'regen' tanks in some form or another (the running order of the 'ten' respectfully borrowed from Infinitum.)

 

To the purists, sure.  Tanks don't have a 'Regen' set like Scrappers do.  But they have so many sets which have variations on that theme that they've got the next best thing or even a better mix of ingredients.  Understandably, they want the 'real' deal.  They want a carbon copy of the Scrapper's Regen Tank to spare them from the 'auto-tonomy' of Will Power.  After all, how come the Tanks can get Scrapper's Reflex and Tanks can't have 'Regen' from Scrappers?  But there's plenty of choice for Tanks containing 'different' amounts of those regenny elements.  Just don't forget your debuff protections.  As they also come in different amounts.

 

Good pic.  But if he gets a hot tea spoon or spinning matrix spoon to the gonads, he'll go down and hold his nether regions and roll around in agony... just like any other guy. 😉

 

Azrael.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

11 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

A +HP/Heal power is, TECHNICALLY, a "Regen" power.
But it's not a set value.  As +HP will affect every Tank differently.
Your ACTUAL "Regen" value doesn't actually change.  You simply have a larger pool of HP to work from.

 

Broadly speaking, I find Tanks variations on a theme.  They just cut the cake differently.  *Walks into the Tank Cake shop, 'What would you like sir, Resistance or Defence?'  'Would Sir like some HPs or Regen Heal?'  'Perhaps a little bit of stamina return proc per mob?

 

That said, I welcome the HC developers to surgically re-attach the Christmas Baubles to Regen and give it to a Tank.  If anyone can do this or fix Rage Crash, It's the HC team.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

"If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!"  Hyperstrike.

 

Probably the best quote about a Tank or any AT ever.

 

If you're new to Tanking, or new to CoH.  This is the killer sales pitch for any beginner.  (I started my CoH career with a fire blaster and/or a Bubble/En Defender back in 2003.  I spent most of my time in Hospital.)

 

'God?' ...  "Where do I sign up?"

 

Azrael.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

'Only a Master of Evil, Darth.'  Kenobi.

 

And respectfully disagree we will. 😉  But your builds are Kool.  No disagreement on that one.  Clearly a well versed authority on building.

 

If I have 'only' Dull Pain.  It's still some form of 'Regen' Tank.  Ergo, why I call the Elec Armour a 'pocket rocket' Regen Tank.  Bio and Rad have whole VATs of stamina (which is a fundamental part of the whole regen kick, so much so, Regen has 'Quick Recovery' and Rad/Bio have their own semantical variations...) and heals and absorbs.  Fire has it's heal and stamina returns.  Ice has it's dull pain and stamina return.

 

But these are things for the beginner Tank to consider.  How much heal or stamina do they want?  How of that will they get if they pick a Defence or Resistance based Tank.

 

Even my SR/Shield Tank needs to take an incarnate 'Regen' power 'just in case.'  They don't have any 'regen' at all (unless you count True Grit and the combination of Health for Shield.)  With Defence, whenever you gamble, sometimes you lose.

 

Most of the Tanks mentioned in this 'Starter Guide Top Ten' are 'regen' tanks in some form or another (the running order of the 'ten' respectfully borrowed from Infinitum.)

 

To the purists, sure.  Tanks don't have a 'Regen' set like Scrappers do.  But they have so many sets which have variations on that theme that they've got the next best thing or even a better mix of ingredients.  Understandably, they want the 'real' deal.  They want a carbon copy of the Scrapper's Regen Tank to spare them from the 'auto-tonomy' of Will Power.  After all, how come the Tanks can get Scrapper's Reflex and Tanks can't have 'Regen' from Scrappers?  But there's plenty of choice for Tanks containing 'different' amounts of those regenny elements.  Just don't forget your debuff protections.  As they also come in different amounts.

 

Good pic.  But if he gets a hot tea spoon or spinning matrix spoon to the gonads, he'll go down and hold his nether regions and roll around in agony... just like any other guy. 😉

 

Azrael.

Sorry.  Regen has a specific meaning in the game.

If you wish to refer to it as "regen", I guess.

It's just misleading.

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

A +HP/Heal power is, TECHNICALLY, a "Regen" power.
But it's not a set value.  As +HP will affect every Tank differently.
Your ACTUAL "Regen" value doesn't actually change.  You simply have a larger pool of HP to work from.

 

Wait... what? +HP automatically means +regen.

Regen with True Grit in the build and slotted, my regen is at 1893%.

Yank the power from the build entirely and my regen drops to 1861%.

 

Edit: I'm going from my SR days. More HP means more Regen. Full stop. Maybe it ain't much, but it's the HP AND Regen that keeps me afloat on top of the scaling damres and defense.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Sovera]

My love affair with tanks is in direct proportion to my time on a Brute.

 

Play a Brute? Eventually get huffy at being squishy and go back to a Tanker.

 

Play a Tanker? Eventually get huffy at gently sandpappering a mob's HP bar and go back to a Brute.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Wait... what? +HP automatically means +regen.

Regen with True Grit in the build and slotted, my regen is at 1893%.

Yank the power from the build entirely and my regen drops to 1861%.

 

Edit: I'm going from my SR days. More HP means more Regen. Full stop. Maybe it ain't much, but it's the HP AND Regen that keeps me afloat on top of the scaling damres and defense.

Because +HP affects HOW MANY HP (or fractional HP) you regenerate in a set time.

Tank.  Bare build, no enhancements.
HP: 1874
With auto-Health, that's 140% base regen.  10.93HP/sec

Now, just turn on DP.
HP: 2523
With auto-health, that's STILL 140% regen.
BUT, because the base HP is higher, 140% on 2523 = 15.3 HP/sec

Yes, more HP regenerating, but your actual REGEN PERCENTAGE VALUE doesn't change.