Empathy: We can't keep the people who play it from being a punchline, but we can at least make it so it's not the set's fault

[Doomguide2005]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I thought that was the goal of most suggestions on the forum? To make the game as easy as possible so they can say they want it made harder so they can not sleep while playing it. I'm probably just reading most of the threads though. (This comment is not aimed at this thread specifically. I don't use Empathy, so I have no say in what happens to it.)

Well while I wouldn't base decisions off what a full GM team might do if created i know I'd have the potential extremes floating in the back of my mind if I was a power designer/developer for any game I was involved in.  The idea, the goal i would hope ultimately is the most fun for the most players.  And definitely aiming to do that over the long haul, not burn bright and burn out quick.

[Razor Cure]

On 7/14/2022 at 9:07 AM, biostem said:

Personally, I don't think the issue is the empathy set itself - I think the issue is how *some* people take it and only employ the healing abilities, foregoing the set's other benefits and ignoring their secondary, (generally if a defender), entirely.  I'm not against buffing the set inasmuch as more emphasis could be placed on just how useful the other abilities are.  That being said, it would be cool if recovery and regeneration auras could simply be made into a "affects all teammates" type of ability, so such an empath no longer needs to announce "Gather for RA!"

 

This is a good point. My very first hero (comnig from CoV) was an emp, and I have a very strict view of how I think an Emp, especially an emp fender should be played. Basically, if you aren't keeping the entire team cm'd and fort'd (obviously at lower levels you can only get 3-5 people with almost constant Fort)..you are doing it wrong. Sure, if a small team, you can attack but in a full team, literally nothing you could do (perhaps aside from sonic attacks for -res) is more important than giving the entire team +def acc and damage, and immunity to Mez.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 11:37 AM, Vanden said:

 

Yes, it would be pretty strong, intentionally so. But if Time Defenders can do practically the same defense buffs not just to themselves but to an entire team (or even league) all at once, on top of all the other debuffs and buffs they get, I don't think letting Empathy characters use Fort on themselves is going to break anything new.

Agreed about Time Fenders. But time wants people in teh thick of things, for the debuffing. Also, I'd argue its actually hard to make sure you hit an entire team with Farsight, as its going of every 120 secs (ish), and you know theres always gonna be a few who dont get there in time. Whereas with Fort..its Ranged, and you never have to get close to anyone. My emp (as stated above) never attacks, so I am literally never being attacked, as thus..there is no need at all for Self Fort. The only time (aside from weird damage auras etc) I take damage is when using..

 

On 7/15/2022 at 3:50 AM, RCU7115 said:

Never taken Absorb Pain on any of my empathy toons, never will. Combining resurrection with absorb pain just means "you're dead".

Madess. Not taking the most powerful heal in game, and one thank makes EMp unique by having 2 ranged heals?

 

 

Back to the Original ideas put forward:

 

I like the idea of Healing Aura being faster and giving some End. 8 May be too much though?

Taking away the Rez and combo-ing with AB? No Thanks. I reckon all the rez needs is maybe a minor fort+cm effect for the revived person, just to give a moment to toggle up, or get safe.

+ Effects on the Auras. Def a good idea, and makes them stand out more from Barrier incarnates.

Again, not a fan at all of Self Fort, but thats my playstyle. I also just dont see it from a thematic point..the Emp, who is all about helping, giving themself a buff. I like my Adrenaline Boost.

 

 

[Seed22]

On 7/14/2022 at 7:01 PM, Rudra said:

Yeah... I'm against that thematically and mechanically. Mechanically because no power set has a heal and rez combined into one power. Thematically because absorb pain is you take the target's injuries unto yourself to heal them. So if the target is dead, you're taking their death unto you to rez them. And I don't see any comment about using absorb pain killing the user if used to rez a target.

 

Edit: So if Empathy gets to merge a heal and a rez, then all the other power sets that have a heal and a rez should get to merge them too.

Can I introduce you to Nature Affinity? It has a heal AND rez in one power

[biostem]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:01 PM, Rudra said:

Thematically because absorb pain is you take the target's injuries unto yourself to heal them. So if the target is dead, you're taking their death unto you to rez them.

But the amount of damage you incur is not equivalent to the amount healed.  Thus, while I could see it, if being used to rez a target, causing more damage or imparting some sort of -regen -recovery effect on you for a short while, it shouldn't necessarily kill the caster...

[Rudra]

Sure, except for this: If a healer can heal another by suffering a fraction of their injury , let's say 1/1000th, and they heal another who suffered 38 points of damage, the healer would take 1 point of damage. (38 / 1000 rounded up to minimum 1.) Now, a healer goes to heal a dead ally the same way. It does not matter how much healing the healer does, that target stays dead. (Any non-rez heal used on a defeated ally does not restore that ally.) So if you take 1/1000th of that target's injury state, and the injury state is effectively infinity (because is dead)? Then the healer will either not be able to restore that individual or the healer dies restoring that individual.

 

He wants to combine rez and heal like Nature Affinity does? Okay. Pick another heal. He's got 2 other options.

 

Edit: Might I suggest swap Heal Other and Absorb Pain on the tree, and merge the rez with Heal Other?

Edited July 20, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change take to suffering and to remove away.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Sure, except for this: If a healer can heal another by suffering a fraction of their injury , let's say 1/1000th, and they heal another who suffered 38 points of damage, the healer would take 1 point of damage. (38 / 1000 rounded up to minimum 1.) Now, a healer goes to heal a dead ally the same way. It does not matter how much healing the healer does, that target stays dead. (Any non-rez heal used on a defeated ally does not restore that ally.) So if you take 1/1000th of that target's injury state, and the injury state is effectively infinity (because is dead)? Then the healer will either not be able to restore that individual or the healer dies restoring that individual.

 

He wants to combine rez and heal like Nature Affinity does? Okay. Pick another heal. He's got 2 other options.

I wasn't talking about the exact proportion inasmuch as the benefit didn't equal the sacrifice the caster had to pay.  I don't really have a horse in this particular race - I was just pointing out that the injury the one absorbing the pain suffered didn't match the original one...

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Can I introduce you to Nature Affinity? It has a heal AND rez in one power

 

On 7/14/2022 at 6:41 PM, Blackfeather said:

 

Well...actually Rebirth does.

 

Thank you for playing. That was brought to my attention back on page 2. Where I admitted I did not know that and thanked @Blackfeather for enlightening me.

[Stormwalker]

40 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

Thank you for playing. That was brought to my attention back on page 2. Where I admitted I did not know that and thanked @Blackfeather for enlightening me.

 

Surely you don't expect people to actually read the whole thread before randomly calling someone out for their minor mistake?  This is the Internet, there's no room for reasonable behavior here.

[Vanden]

If Absorb Pain and Resurrect were to actually be combined, I'd probably change the name. Probably to Rescue; that way we can still call it "rez." Then the flavor text would say that you recklessly heal your ally in a hurry in an attempt to rescue them from being defeated, in such a way that it injures you. However, if the ally is already defeated, you have to be more careful, resulting in no damage to you but a longer recharge.

[Grouchybeast]

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

If Absorb Pain and Resurrect were to actually be combined, I'd probably change the name. Probably to Rescue; that way we can still call it "rez." Then the flavor text would say that you recklessly heal your ally in a hurry in an attempt to rescue them from being defeated, in such a way that it injures you. However, if the ally is already defeated, you have to be more careful, resulting in no damage to you but a longer recharge.

 

I would like to propose that the Absorb Pain/Rez combo be called Suck It Up.  Then when the Empath's teammates faceplant, they can yell, "You, Suck!"

[America's Angel]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:29 AM, Vanden said:

Heal Other

• Range increased to 100 feet
• Healing is 50% stronger on pets and allied NPCs

Absorb Pain

• Hah, just kidding about Resurrect. It's been combined into Absorb Pain.
• Using Absorb Pain on a defeated player revives them with full Health and Endurance. Recharge is 60 seconds, and the range to rez a player is 60 feet. No self-damage or debuffs when used to rez a player.
• Absorb Pain's heal on living players reduced from scale 5 to scale 3.5. Now grants 20% absorb to the target for 20 seconds
• Recharge on Absorb Pain when used on a living player increased to 30 seconds, range increased to 100 feet
• -100% Healing effectiveness removed, making it possible to recover hit points by using Healing Aura, inspirations, or having another player heal you.

New power: Valor

• A self-buff identical to Fortitude. Recharge time: 5 minutes
• Can be used when defeated to self-rez
• Placed at tier 6 in the power list

Hard pass on these. Hard pass on giving Regeneration Aura DDR. (Empathy isn't a defense-based set.)

 

Rest looks interesting.

Other things to consider:

• Giving the AoE buffs a shorter cooldown
• Giving the Regeneration Aura a -regen debuff,
• Giving Recovery Aura an -end and -recovery debuffs
• Giving Clear Mind mez protection instead of mez resistance (it currently does this in PvP)
• Giving Clear Mind an AoE component so it buffs team-mates in range of your target (similar to how Ice Shield functions)

[Vanden]

53 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Hard pass on giving Regeneration Aura DDR. (Empathy isn't a defense-based set.)

 

But Fortitude gives +Defense? An awful lot of it.

 

53 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Giving Clear Mind mez protection instead of mez resistance (it currently does this in PvP)

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Vanden

[DarionLeonidas]

I really don't see it as a set for "bad players" at all.
Time was no one would even consider trying a TF/SF without a good Empathy healer along.

Presumably, the game's long hiatus with a severely reduced population led the Preservers to make the changes they did which make all ATs tough enough to allow them to solo even the toughest TF/SF, with the result that Empathy isn't as crucial as it used to be.

But it's still damn handy and as far as "bad players" go, I've solo'ed Empathy characters up many levels (in missions, not farming), and let me tell you, THATS a challenge.

And let's face it: Nobody today is going to give up all the bells and whistles that have made everything so much easier in the game.

Anyway... I guess my point is that players who choose Empathy aren't bad players; rather, all the stuff that lets players get away with bad play are what have made Empathy largely irrelevant.

 

[Seed22]

20 hours ago, DarionLeonidas said:

I really don't see it as a set for "bad players" at all.
Time was no one would even consider trying a TF/SF without a good Empathy healer along.

Presumably, the game's long hiatus with a severely reduced population led the Preservers to make the changes they did which make all ATs tough enough to allow them to solo even the toughest TF/SF, with the result that Empathy isn't as crucial as it used to be.

But it's still damn handy and as far as "bad players" go, I've solo'ed Empathy characters up many levels (in missions, not farming), and let me tell you, THATS a challenge.

And let's face it: Nobody today is going to give up all the bells and whistles that have made everything so much easier in the game.

Anyway... I guess my point is that players who choose Empathy aren't bad players; rather, all the stuff that lets players get away with bad play are what have made Empathy largely irrelevant.

 

The introduction of sets n whatnot made emp more and more obsolete, not the game being away. That and emp is kind of a boring holy trinity set that’s horribly outshadowed by actually interesting sets.

 

I say this as someone whose first ever defender 50 was an emp back in the days of SO’s being dominant.  And as someone with an Emp/Sonic today at 50 with all the bells and whistles.
 

And bad play? The hell is that? Thats the equivalent of that skinner meme. Blame everything under the sun except the fact the set sucks. 
 

Unfortunately every emp I ever team with on Everlasting has ignored the buffs in the set(ironically, they HAVE the powers, they literally just ignore them). 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Seed22