Empathy: We can't keep the people who play it from being a punchline, but we can at least make it so it's not the set's fault

[Vanden]

Poor Empathy has the reputation of being the power set of choice for bad players. But the bigger problem is that even if those players were good, Empathy itself doesn't bring a lot to the table. It's long been in need of an overhaul, which is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. One thing that's important to me when considering set overhauls is that they shouldn't drastically alter the feel of the set except in dire circumstances. With that in mind, here's my proposal for an Empathy overhaul:

 

Healing Aura

• Now grants 8 endurance to all affected targets. This is something I've seen suggested before, and I like the idea. It would really help with low-level play.
• Healing is 50% stronger when used on pets and allied NPCs
• Activation time reduced to 1 second

 

Heal Other

• Range increased to 100 feet
• Healing is 50% stronger on pets and allied NPCs

 

Resurrect

• It's gone now

 

Absorb Pain

• Hah, just kidding about Resurrect. It's been combined into Absorb Pain.
• Using Absorb Pain on a defeated player revives them with full Health and Endurance. Recharge is 60 seconds, and the range to rez a player is 60 feet. No self-damage or debuffs when used to rez a player.
• Absorb Pain's heal on living players reduced from scale 5 to scale 3.5. Now grants 20% absorb to the target for 20 seconds
• Recharge on Absorb Pain when used on a living player increased to 30 seconds, range increased to 100 feet
• -100% Healing effectiveness removed, making it possible to recover hit points by using Healing Aura, inspirations, or having another player heal you.

 

Clear Mind

• Moved to tier 4 (from tier 5)

 

Fortitude

• Moved to tier 5 (from tier 6)

 

Regeneration Aura

• Now grants 25% defense debuff resistance
• "Grace period" function added; for 10 seconds after activation, any teammate that moves within 25 feet of the caster receives the Regeneration Aura buff. Only teammates are eligible for this buff; leaguemates on different teams cannot receive the buff.
• The initial cast of the power still has a 255 target limit and can affect any allied target within range.

 

Recovery Aura

• Now grants 40% recharge and movement slow resistance
• Has the same grace period functionality as Regeneration Aura.

 

New power: Valor

• A self-buff identical to Fortitude. Recharge time: 5 minutes
• Can be used when defeated to self-rez
• Placed at tier 6 in the power list

Edited July 12, 2022 by Vanden

[Ghost]

Sorry, struggling to get past the part where you call people “bad players” because of the power they choose.

Gotta wonder who the real “bad player” around here is

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ghost

[Oklahoman]

Even back on Live, people were asking for Empathy to get some love. I like some of your ideas, just like I like some of the ideas in these other threads. Hopefully, we'll see some long overdue attention to this powerset soon.

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Sorry, struggling to get past the part where you call people “bad players” because of the power they choose.

 

Where did I say that picking Empathy makes someone a bad player? My words were that Empathy is "the power set of choice for bad players." Meaning bad players gravitate towards Empathy, not that picking Empathy makes one bad.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Vanden

[Ghost]

37 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Where did I say that picking Empathy makes someone a bad player? My words were that Empathy is "the power set of choice for bad players." Meaning bad players gravitate towards Empathy, not that picking Empathy makes one bad.

Your inference is that players with empathy are bad players. 
 

Tell me, how do you differentiate just by looking at powers that were chosen.  How do you tell good from bad?

[The_Warpact]

2 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Your inference is that players with empathy are bad players. 
 

Tell me, how do you differentiate just by looking at powers that were chosen.  How do you tell good from bad?

Hey Ghost, I got an idea why don't you quit giving the guy a hard time with shit that doesn't pertain to the thread. 

 

Everyone spouts about how great the people are on this forum, but, in reality alot of threads devolve into pissing matches and get locked. Namely because someone wants to get a wild hair up their ass because, of some perceived slight that has occured in their head.

 

So kill the drama already, and go ahead and down thumb this too since really that's your superpower.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Sorry, I'm dumb. Could you kindly post what the powerset listing would look like after your proposed changes?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Vanden]

14 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sorry, I'm dumb. Could you kindly post what the powerset listing would look like after your proposed changes?

 

Healing Aura

Heal Other

Absorb Pain

Clear Mind

Fortitude

Valor

Recovery Aura

Regeneration Aura

Adrenalin Boost

 

47 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Your inference is that players with empathy are bad players. 
 

Tell me, how do you differentiate just by looking at powers that were chosen.  How do you tell good from bad?

 

We're not here to judge the skills of players. Empathy simply has a reputation of attracting players who have yet to learn the most effective ways to play the game or build characters, and it's an elephant that needs to be addressed in any discussion of Empathy's merits as a support set. Beyond that, it's not relevant to this topic.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Vanden

[huang3721]

 

49 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Empathy simply has a reputation of attracting players who have yet to learn the most effective ways to play the game or build characters,

What are the most effective ways to play the game or build characters, that justify changing the power set?

[Spaghetti Betty]

26 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Healing Aura

Heal Other

Absorb Pain

Clear Mind

Fortitude

Valor

Recovery Aura

Regeneration Aura

Adrenalin Boost

Thanks much.

 

So about Valor. It's completely identical to Fortitude? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Defender Fort give like +20% DEF or something like that? I'd just be concerned that, with all the other tools ATs that can select Empathy also get access to (Power Boost, Scorpion Shield), and being able to heal yourself and boost your own regeneration to ludicrous levels, that you would run into an "Invincible Cleric" situation. Maybe it could just be really hard to get a decent recharge on it.

 

I'm pretty much on board with every other suggestion, though. Just confused about the strength of Valor.

[Vanden]

14 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

So about Valor. It's completely identical to Fortitude? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Defender Fort give like +20% DEF or something like that? I'd just be concerned that, with all the other tools ATs that can select Empathy also get access to (Power Boost, Scorpion Shield), and being able to heal yourself and boost your own regeneration to ludicrous levels, that you would run into an "Invincible Cleric" situation. Maybe it could just be really hard to get a decent recharge on it.

 

I'm pretty much on board with every other suggestion, though. Just confused about the strength of Valor.

 

Yes, it would be pretty strong, intentionally so. But if Time Defenders can do practically the same defense buffs not just to themselves but to an entire team (or even league) all at once, on top of all the other debuffs and buffs they get, I don't think letting Empathy characters use Fort on themselves is going to break anything new.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Vanden

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Yes, it would be pretty strong, intentionally so. But if Time Defenders can do practically the same defense buffs not just to themselves but to an entire team (or even league) all at once, on top of all the other debuffs and buffs they get, I don't think letting Empathy characters use Fort on themselves is going to break anything new.

That's fair, but I don't think Time should be the baseline. Everyone knows Farsight is a little wacky. Especially on a set that also has access to massive -tohit. But it already exists, so oh well.

 

I'd definitely drop all of my Regen toons for Empathy if this became reality.

[Rudra]

Isn't Empathy supposed to have the best heals? Maybe even the buffs? So what is so bad about it? It may not be an offensive set, but if it does what it is supposed to do, then what needs to be fixed?

 

If it is the set's reputation because of player usage, what bearing does that have on the set itself? Support sets tend to have high learning curves. I don't see the need for this change.

 

I'm not going to argue on this one. I don't play empaths because of the support focus. Just like I don't play several other power sets because of their support focus. I am still left wondering why though. And that is from reading the OP. Why is this needed? The OP doesn't give any real reason other than having "the reputation of being the power set of choice for bad players". It doesn't bring much to the table? It has THREE heals plus a regen buff! It has a rez. It has a Mag 12.98 status resist buff. It has a +DEF (All), +DAM, and +ToHit in ONE power. It has a recovery buff. And its tier 9 buffs recovery, regeneration, and attack rate.

 

That is a LOT to bring to the table. And 3 of those are PBAoEs.

 

Edit: And another confusing point: You want to merge the rez into one of the heals. If you do that, then every power set with a heal and rez is going to want to be merged as well. Are you willing to accept that?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Rudra

[arcane]

Self-Fortitude sounds like a silly idea that does nothing to address the set’s issue and does everything to lean into power creep fantasies. Power Boosted Self-Fortitude would be possibly the easiest soft capping in the entire game. Easy no vote to that.

 

Some of your other ideas look nice though.

 

EDIT: no, Power Boosted Farsight should not be a measuring stick under any circumstances.  You don’t “balance” sets by matching the most overpowered tricks in the entire game.

Edited July 13, 2022 by arcane

[Vanden]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

Self-Fortitude sounds like a silly idea that does nothing to address the set’s issue and does everything to lean into power creep fantasies.

 

Being able to use Fortitude on yourself would make a huge difference in the set's ability to solo, a major weakness for Empathy. Along with the ability to self-rez, it also makes it much more likely that an Empathy character will be able to stay alive in a team situation where things get bad and their heals actually become necessary, rather than simply being the first one to hit the floor.

 

7 hours ago, arcane said:

EDIT: no, Power Boosted Farsight should not be a measuring stick under any circumstances.  You don’t “balance” sets by matching the most overpowered tricks in the entire game.

 

The thing that makes Power-Boosted Farsight so broken is that it's AoE, so it gives its massive buffs not just to the caster but to pets, teammates, leaguemates, etc. An Empath being able to Fortitude themselves is still only buffing themself. I brought up Farsight not because I wanted to claim that Power-Boosted Farsight is some sort of baseline, but because being able to self-Fortitude is still far below what Farsight can do.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Vanden

[AlienMafia]

As long as they don't touch adrenaline boost. I love my Perma AB build

[biostem]

Personally, I don't think the issue is the empathy set itself - I think the issue is how *some* people take it and only employ the healing abilities, foregoing the set's other benefits and ignoring their secondary, (generally if a defender), entirely.  I'm not against buffing the set inasmuch as more emphasis could be placed on just how useful the other abilities are.  That being said, it would be cool if recovery and regeneration auras could simply be made into a "affects all teammates" type of ability, so such an empath no longer needs to announce "Gather for RA!"

[arcane]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:45 AM, Vanden said:

The thing that makes Power-Boosted Farsight so broken is that it's AoE, so it gives its massive buffs not just to the caster but to pets, teammates, leaguemates, etc.

I disagree. I think what makes Power Booster Farsight broken is that it affects the caster. We don’t call Power Boosted Force Field Bubbles overpowered because they don’t self buff. 
 

If you look at every Support powerset you will see that powers that only affect allies are typically some of the strongest. If they got a self-Fortitude I would expect the values to be cut in half at least. 

[RCU7115]

Never taken Absorb Pain on any of my empathy toons, never will. Combining resurrection with absorb pain just means "you're dead".

[Vanden]

45 minutes ago, arcane said:

I disagree. I think what makes Power Booster Farsight broken is that it affects the caster. We don’t call Power Boosted Force Field Bubbles overpowered because they don’t self buff. 

 

I don't agree with your latter point; I think the reason we don't call Power-Boosted bubbles overpowered is because they're in Force Field. Powers don't exist in a vacuum, they're part of sets. Neither Force Field nor Empathy have the variety of potent debuffs, control, and other buffs that Time Manipulation does. When you consider all that Time can do outside of Farsight, and then look at how it can softcap an entire team on top of that, that's when eyebrows start raising.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Vanden

[Rudra]

Isn't Time supposed to be ridiculously OP compared to all the other sets though? If that is the case, then comparing Empathy to Time is itself broken. Again, I don't like playing support focused characters, but when it comes to support, all I ever hear is "play Time".

Edited July 14, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add "playing" and "focused".

[Marine X]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:50 PM, Rudra said:

Isn't Empathy supposed to have the best heals? Maybe even the buffs? So what is so bad about it?

It has the best outright heal and the Buffs are good, for other Players. It isn't that the set itself is bad, but it does tend to lean heavily into the old Holy Trinity that a lot of games embrace ( Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer ). The problem is that on Defenders especially, it is not got much to help the Character wielding it in a Game that the Holy Trinity is not necessary to succeed in. Solo play for Empathy Defenders can be very painful, and on teams they are in most cases under utilized because of past power creep that has made a dedicated Healer no longer absolutely necessary. People coming to CoX from say WOW or Guild Wars, where a team without a Mage or a Paladin is going to have a rough time assume the same applies here and may end up as Dead Weight on a team. It has needed attention for quite some time and @Vanden has a few good ideas there. In my reasoning though, wouldn't it be easier to change Fortitude itself to an AoE that includes the Caster rather than create a new power? Then give Empathy something new that would make the set interesting, maybe a sort of AoE Sleep or Hold ( Sympathy ), or a solid AoE Debuff ( Ambivalence ), that would allow the player to increase their survivability. It's all just Talk at this point, and seeing what ideas people have, just suggestions you know.

[Oubliette_Red]

23 hours ago, biostem said:

Personally, I don't think the issue is the empathy set itself - I think the issue is how *some* people take it and only employ the healing abilities, foregoing the set's other benefits and ignoring their secondary, (generally if a defender), entirely.  I'm not against buffing the set inasmuch as more emphasis could be placed on just how useful the other abilities are.  That being said, it would be cool if recovery and regeneration auras could simply be made into a "affects all teammates" type of ability, so such an empath no longer needs to announce "Gather for RA!"

 

I think that when it comes to new players, especially those form other MMO's they have gotten used to the Holy Trinity and assume that Emp is the "h3alz0r" set. They haven't had the time to unlearn habits from other games that are bad habits in this game.

 

[Darmian]

I run a Main that is Mind Control/Empathy.  Frankly, removing the rez is a no go for me.  That thing is golden.  Ok, it doesn't smack the enemy around like HT and so on, but so what?

[Blackfeather]

15 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I run a Main that is Mind Control/Empathy.  Frankly, removing the rez is a no go for me.  That thing is golden.  Ok, it doesn't smack the enemy around like HT and so on, but so what?

 

It looks like it was merged.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Vanden said:

Resurrect

• It's gone now

 

Absorb Pain

• Hah, just kidding about Resurrect. It's been combined into Absorb Pain.
• Using Absorb Pain on a defeated player revives them with full Health and Endurance. Recharge is 60 seconds, and the range to rez a player is 60 feet. No self-damage or debuffs when used to rez a player.
• Absorb Pain's heal on living players reduced from scale 5 to scale 3.5. Now grants 20% absorb to the target for 20 seconds
• Recharge on Absorb Pain when used on a living player increased to 30 seconds, range increased to 100 feet
• -100% Healing effectiveness removed, making it possible to recover hit points by using Healing Aura, inspirations, or having another player heal you.