issue 27 Focused Feedback: Enemy Aggro Revamp

[golstat2003]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:37 PM, skoryy said:

 

I took it a bit cautious with my rad armor tank, but I wound up jumping in on all three spawns in the lower office level.  It was glorious.

 

LOL pretty much what my non-squishy characters will be doing. Nice change devs!

[golstat2003]

On 7/13/2022 at 6:36 AM, Sovera said:

 

 

 

As said. And even then I like it for regular PvE as well. Mobs just loitering while we fought the target cap was dumb and as explained  we can taunt off mobs. The sliding agro means there will be more chaos with mobs changing targets and running around. I like it.

 

Not saying everyone has to like it though.

 

Makes those nukes folks have been complaining about in teams more relevant now too doesn't it? 😉 

[Andreah]

I see it putting a premium on being able to position groups of mobs, both to concentrate them so they're subject to team AoE's and not sniping lowbies/squishies with impunity, and to spread them out of ranged distance so they can't snipe.

[KaizenSoze]

10 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I see it putting a premium on being able to position groups of mobs, both to concentrate them so they're subject to team AoE's and not sniping lowbies/squishies with impunity, and to spread them out of ranged distance so they can't snipe.

I am guessing two powers *might* be more used often.

 

Powers that debuff perception, like smoke grenade. And fold space to group as you said.

 

More squishy solo players might need to pull more carefully.

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

More squishy solo players might need to pull more carefully.

And judgment being pretty scary for squishies to use. Those high target counts on Judgment powers and the high damage they do may get the casters a lot of undesirable incoming fire from mobs over the cap, even in team settings with tanks/brutes around.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

And judgment being pretty scary for squishies to use. Those high target counts on Judgment powers and the high damage they do may get the casters a lot of undesirable incoming fire from mobs over the cap, even in team settings with tanks/brutes around.

 

Pop 2-3 defense insp then go to town. 😛 

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Pop 2-3 defense insp then go to town. 😛 

And a couple of large resists, because 40 targets shooting at you, a couple are going to 5% leak through.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Andreah said:

And a couple of large resists, because 40 targets shooting at you, a couple are going to 5% leak through.

Meh It’s only a flesh wound 🤣😁😆

[SwitchFade]

I don't AE farm so the effect there is nil for me.

 

For PVE regular content, Solid change. People will have to have situational awareness a bit more now and controls and defenders will contribute much more.

 

On most maps this won't really mean much as group spacing is enough that it's easy not to pull a second group.

 

Should be fun!

[skoryy]

13 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

More squishy solo players might need to pull more carefully.

 

Meanwhile, I'm trying out a Fire/MC blaster concept on Brainstorm because I'm just riding that edge, boy.

[Marshal_General]

18 hours ago, Andreah said:

And a couple of large resists, because 40 targets shooting at you, a couple are going to 5% leak through.

That should only happen around 20% of the time.

[KaizenSoze]

8 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Meanwhile, I'm trying out a Fire/MC blaster concept on Brainstorm because I'm just riding that edge, boy.

Might I also suggest my personal favorite Elec/Ice/Mu Blaster.

 

Using Cardic Radial it's a monster drainer with an 30' slow toggle and another slow cone with 60 second duration.

[Andreah]

9 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

That should only happen around 20% of the time.

At a 5% capped minimum chance to hit, 40 attacks will on average result in 2 hits.  There's only a ~36% chance none would hit.

[Marshal_General]

5 hours ago, Andreah said:

At a 5% capped minimum chance to hit, 40 attacks will on average result in 2 hits.  There's only a ~36% chance none would hit.

Not the way the game rolls. It seems like a 5% chance to hit means you get hit 20% of the time .

 

Also don't forget the streak breaker

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Not the way the game rolls. It seems like a 5% chance to hit means you get hit 20% of the time .

The idea the random number generator in CoH is biased or unfair in some way was put to bed long ago.  Enemy accuracy will come into play, and this may increase the chance to hit, but 5% is the floor. Lts and bosses get rank accuracy up to 1.3, and enemies at +3 to you (a 50+1 doing +4 content) another 0.3. If they're using accurate powers, I suppose it could double  to 10%. 

 

2 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Also don't forget the streak breaker

It never forces enemies to miss you. It only forces hits if they've missed too many times in a row. And the lower their chance to hit is after all the calculations, the more hits in a row it allows -- in this case, up to 100 or so.

 

At a minimum, no matter how good your defense is, if 40 mobs are shooting at you, most of the time you will get hit, and even in the best case for the player, those 40 mobs will score two hits per collective cycle of their powers. Whereas before the aggro change, only 17 at most would have been trying, with less than half as many hits per cycle.

 

My conclusion is that using powers like Judgment in target dense areas is going to attract a lot of enemy fire, and the amount that lands even on defense capped characters will be substantially higher than we've seen in the past. Tester feedback here in this thread seems to confirm that as well. 

[KaizenSoze]

27 minutes ago, Andreah said:

The idea the random number generator in CoH is biased or unfair in some way was put to bed long ago.  Enemy accuracy will come into play, and this may increase the chance to hit, but 5% is the floor. Lts and bosses get rank accuracy up to 1.3, and enemies at +3 to you (a 50+1 doing +4 content) another 0.3. If they're using accurate powers, I suppose it could double  to 10%. 

 

It never forces enemies to miss you. It only forces hits if they've missed too many times in a row. And the lower their chance to hit is after all the calculations, the more hits in a row it allows -- in this case, up to 100 or so.

 

At a minimum, no matter how good your defense is, if 40 mobs are shooting at you, most of the time you will get hit, and even in the best case for the player, those 40 mobs will score two hits per collective cycle of their powers. Whereas before the aggro change, only 17 at most would have been trying, with less than half as many hits per cycle.

 

My conclusion is that using powers like Judgment in target dense areas is going to attract a lot of enemy fire, and the amount that lands even on defense capped characters will be substantially higher than we've seen in the past. Tester feedback here in this thread seems to confirm that as well. 

I love a good stat nerd fight! *pulls out popcorn and a calculator*

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

My conclusion is that using powers like Judgment in target dense areas is going to attract a lot of enemy fire, and the amount that lands even on defense capped characters will be substantially higher than we've seen in the past. Tester feedback here in this thread seems to confirm that as well. 

I think you may be right.  Did a judgement on a +4 test and face planted from the amount of incoming fire.   (Same action on live results in a much more manageable damage to me)

[Andreah]

Also, in the current HC, the 17 mobs who will be returning fire after a Judgment are likely to be close to you, or will be shortly.  Those are mobs whose incoming fire you can mitigate by defeating them quickly.  Now, if 17 come in close, but 23 more stay at range, that complicates dealing with it. If all 23 are off in a single direction, or better, clumped together at a distance, then ranged cones and other AoEs will help; but if they're widely distributed around in all directions, that's harder. 

 

So there may be a greater premium on controlling crowd placement, with powers like Fold Space, Shadow Slip, and Wormhole. Also, using terrain and object masking to prevent ranged foes from having a clear shot will be more useful than in the past.

[Jacke]

5 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Not the way the game rolls. It seems like a 5% chance to hit means you get hit 20% of the time .

 

That's XCOM City of Heroes! 🙂

 

I'm worried not for this change alone, but for how many of the changes in this Page 4 will interact.  (And before someone says it, I don't have the time to go out and test.)

[KaizenSoze]

58 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Also, in the current HC, the 17 mobs who will be returning fire after a Judgment are likely to be close to you, or will be shortly.  Those are mobs whose incoming fire you can mitigate by defeating them quickly.  Now, if 17 come in close, but 23 more stay at range, that complicates dealing with it. If all 23 are off in a single direction, or better, clumped together at a distance, then ranged cones and other AoEs will help; but if they're widely distributed around in all directions, that's harder. 

 

So there may be a greater premium on controlling crowd placement, with powers like Fold Space, Shadow Slip, and Wormhole. Also, using terrain and object masking to prevent ranged foes from having a clear shot will be more useful than in the past.

Yes, line of sight pulling (LOS) is going to be needed more now solo.

 

Minus perception powers also help with pulling. I already repec'ed Smoke Nade back onto my Night Widow and added Fold Space.

[KaizenSoze]

Just now, Jacke said:

 

That's XCOM City of Heroes! 🙂

 

I'm worried not for this change alone, but for how many of the changes in this Page 4 will interact.  (And before someone says it, I don't have the time to go out and test.)

Outside of the AE changes. Here's how I see it.

 

Aggro changes make smart pulling a wee bit more needed. Unless you're playing a super sturdy AT.

 

Attack type changes means you'll be taking more damage, not huge amount, but more.

 

Combine the two, soloing at 4x8 got a bit harder depending on what you are running. If you're use to playing with squishy builds that required smart pulling you'll be fine. If you were relying on s/l softcap and the 17 aggro cap to leap into rooms with multiple 4x8 spawns. You're life is going to get noticeably harder, but not the doomsday levels they are talking about in the attack type thread.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 7/13/2022 at 12:03 AM, kingsmidgens said:

How is this anything but a nerf, at all, in any way shape or form?

It works essentially like it does now with the exception that enemies that currently stand around doing nothing will attack you at range.

Full stop, that's all.

Enemies that couldn't attack you before due to the aggro cap now attack you at range.

Even if you say that the tank can selectively aggro targets that are attacking a squishy, if they're at the aggro cap, which they'd have to be for this to be relevant, they'll just immediately be replaced with the mobs that just got knocked off the tank's previous aggro cap.


That said, I don't think this is going to be incredibly impactful outside of farms or solo +4x8.

either we can agro more than 17 or not. dont give us the worst of both worlds. Let us pull the whole room

 

On 7/15/2022 at 9:22 AM, golstat2003 said:

 

Makes those nukes folks have been complaining about in teams more relevant now too doesn't it? 😉 

maybe time to remove the damage caps on nukes. If we can take damage from more than 17, shouldnt they take damage from from us?

[EPGAH2]

I like this idea, but we'll need to take off the target limits as well. I would LOVE to be attacked by an entire enemy army--then slaughter them.

The best way to FEEL like a One-Man Army is to slaughter an enemy army. Instead we can get attacked by an army--but only hit back against a certain number of them!

Edited July 17, 2022 by EPGAH2
One Man Army

[PorkTips]

Is this change intended to kill the Meteor Map or other open map farming? It seems highly targeted to do that.

 

Anyway, I can think of ways around it, so I guess the silver lining is that it will be fun figuring out a new meta for AFK farming.

[EPGAH2]

Can we have another change to aggro that stops them from RUNNING AWAY?

Alternate: Have enemies that run away get killed by their own side for desertion or something, and I get only partial EXP.

This would be very lore accurate to Council, Fifth Column, Family, Warriors, and especially Arachnos as well as all Pratorian content. Not sure about the others.

Edited July 17, 2022 by EPGAH2
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