issue 27 Focused Feedback: Enemy Aggro Revamp

[The Curator]

Enemy Aggro Revamp

Enemy Aggro Behavior Adjustments

• The aggro cap has been reworked to be less obvious and intrusive to gameplay.
  • The cap is still 17. If a player exceeds the cap, the AI will prefer any other valid target. This means in a team environment there is no change to enemy behavior.
  • If an AI-controlled enemy has no valid target due to them all being at the cap, it will choose the capped target with highest threat that is in range and use opportunistic ranged attacks. They will no longer mill about, oblivious to the action going on around them. Enemies that are beyond the cap *will not* pursue players that move out of range.
  • Aggro cap processing is more dynamic. Instead of using a rigid priority system, it now uses a simplified version of the normal threat calculation, taking into account distance, total damage done, taunt duration, and rank. It is also periodically re-evaluated instead of being locked in. This should prevent scenarios where an aggro-capped tank tries to taunt enemies off an ally and the taunt is completely ignored.
  • Player pets, including Mastermind pets ignore the cap. This change was made some time ago but is still in effect even with the revamp.
• The goal of this change is to make it feel like there is no aggro cap at all, but still retain the desired game mechanics of a single tank being unable to maintain threat on or herd an unlimited number of foes.

[America's Angel]

YOU CAN STILL FARM.

(See below)

Test it out for yourself on Brainstorm and see!

For Active farming use map #23785

 

For AFK farming use map #23786

For updated builds, see the mids files attached to this post.

(Sorry to the mods for cross-posting this message in the three relevant threads. I just wanted to mention fire farming is still 100% possible with this update before a bazillion people jump to the the wrong conclusion. If anything, fire farming has actually been buffed, because enemy patrols won't wander off anymore...)

page 4 active farmer.mxd page 4 afk farmer.mxd

Edited July 12, 2022 by America's Angel

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

YOU CAN STILL FARM.

(See below)

Test it out for yourself on Brainstorm and see!

For Active farming use map #23785

 

For AFK farming use map #23786

For updated builds, see the mids files attached to this post.

(Sorry to the mods for cross-posting this message in the three relevant threads. I just wanted to mention fire farming is still 100% possible with this update before a bazillion people jump to the the wrong conclusion. If anything, fire farming has actually been buffed, because enemy patrols won't wander off anymore...)

page 4 active farmer.mxd 5.58 kB · 0 downloads page 4 afk farmer.mxd 5.7 kB · 0 downloads

 

What does 'you can still farm' mean in this context? The agro change is a buff, the fire farming is untouched since fire uses mostly fire instead of /smash or /lethal. The real nerf seems to be no longer obtaining incarnate XP for those not lucky enough to already have their farmer.

[America's Angel]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

What does 'you can still farm' mean in this context? The agro change is a buff, the fire farming is untouched since fire uses mostly fire instead of /smash or /lethal. The real nerf seems to be no longer obtaining incarnate XP for those not lucky enough to already have their farmer.

 

There's two big page 4 tweaks that impact farms:
-Enemies over aggro caps can hit you

-Enemies require more attacks in order to give the same inf/xp as live.

 

We had a bunch of people complain in closed beta that fire farming wasn't possible anymore because of these two changes.

 

So, I wanted to post resources to let players test for themselves instead of arguing on forums about patch notes. (So that they can reach the same conclusion I did - that farming is still possible.)

[KaizenSoze]

Yes, they change mostly effects general play where patrols would just wander by because you're aggro capped.

 

Or charging into the middle of a space, knowing you're only going to take attacks from 17 mobs.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I faceplanted against Incarnate Cimerorans in a room with 3 spawns. I LOVE this change!

[The Caretaker]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I faceplanted against Incarnate Cimerorans in a room with 3 spawns. I LOVE this change!

 

Ravennans should be fun too. 😈

[ScarySai]

I do love this change, it's a little painful against carnie summons, but I can live with it.

 

Ripping apart a room full of council as they all fire on you never felt better.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Ripping apart a room full of council as they all fire on you never felt better.

 

I took it a bit cautious with my rad armor tank, but I wound up jumping in on all three spawns in the lower office level.  It was glorious.

[KaizenSoze]

I am seeing one bit of weirdness with placate on my Night Widow.

 

The placated mobs are very quickly, 2-3 seconds, sprinting back to their spawn points.

 

It's a bit annoying if I am trying to take out a key mob and the rest are sprinting away.

 

Pretty much have to placate and AOE immediately to avoid them leaving. Not a 100% of the time, but quite often.

[Zappalina]

"Enemies that are beyond the cap *will not* pursue players that move out of range." Thank you I like that I think it will also help in regular PVE groups when teaming.

 

I think this is good as I understand it (could be off on that though) "It is also periodically re-evaluated instead of being locked in. This should prevent scenarios where an aggro-capped tank tries to taunt enemies off an ally and the taunt is completely ignored." I target team mates when on my tank and try to taunt aggro off them, if they're dying and hope that they are targeting their aggressor that's making their health go down. This will be good for when I get aggro on my tanker but maybe have one that fits the scenario above. Guessing that it would possibly catch that one as long as I am not at aggro cap and even if I may be that it grabs one during the re-evaluation.

[Number Six]

50 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

Guessing that it would possibly catch that one as long as I am not at aggro cap and even if I may be that it grabs one during the re-evaluation.

 

Even if you are at aggro cap, you'll be able to grab them now. Since they're sorted in reverse order by threat, a freshly taunted target (remaining duration of taunt effects gets a large multiplier) will be at the top of the list and will be the first one re-evaluated.

 

So what will happen is the one you taunted will move into your 17 'uncapped' attackers and run towards you, while the one with the lowest threat gets pushed 'out' and will go find a more interesting target.

[kingsmidgens]

8 hours ago, Sovera said:

The agro change is a buff

How is this anything but a nerf, at all, in any way shape or form?

It works essentially like it does now with the exception that enemies that currently stand around doing nothing will attack you at range.

Full stop, that's all.

Enemies that couldn't attack you before due to the aggro cap now attack you at range.

Even if you say that the tank can selectively aggro targets that are attacking a squishy, if they're at the aggro cap, which they'd have to be for this to be relevant, they'll just immediately be replaced with the mobs that just got knocked off the tank's previous aggro cap.


That said, I don't think this is going to be incredibly impactful outside of farms or solo +4x8.

[America's Angel]

43 minutes ago, kingsmidgens said:

How is this anything but a nerf, at all, in any way shape or form?

It works essentially like it does now with the exception that enemies that currently stand around doing nothing will attack you at range.

Full stop, that's all.

Enemies that couldn't attack you before due to the aggro cap now attack you at range.

Even if you say that the tank can selectively aggro targets that are attacking a squishy, if they're at the aggro cap, which they'd have to be for this to be relevant, they'll just immediately be replaced with the mobs that just got knocked off the tank's previous aggro cap.


That said, I don't think this is going to be incredibly impactful outside of farms or solo +4x8.

 

It's a buff to farming (the context Sovera was talking in) because patrols will no longer wander off.

[Gulbasaur]

16 hours ago, The Curator said:

it now uses a simplified version of the normal threat calculation, taking into account distance, total damage done, taunt duration, and rank.

IIRC debuffs were a part of the old threat algorithm.

 

The wiki says

Quote

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

 

Is that no longer the case (or is that just very old information on the wiki)?

 

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, kingsmidgens said:

How is this anything but a nerf, at all, in any way shape or form?

It works essentially like it does now with the exception that enemies that currently stand around doing nothing will attack you at range.

Full stop, that's all.

Enemies that couldn't attack you before due to the aggro cap now attack you at range.

Even if you say that the tank can selectively aggro targets that are attacking a squishy, if they're at the aggro cap, which they'd have to be for this to be relevant, they'll just immediately be replaced with the mobs that just got knocked off the tank's previous aggro cap.


That said, I don't think this is going to be incredibly impactful outside of farms or solo +4x8.

 

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

It's a buff to farming (the context Sovera was talking in) because patrols will no longer wander off.

 

 

As said. And even then I like it for regular PvE as well. Mobs just loitering while we fought the target cap was dumb and as explained  we can taunt off mobs. The sliding agro means there will be more chaos with mobs changing targets and running around. I like it.

 

Not saying everyone has to like it though.

[KaizenSoze]

This might have the effect of making -perception powers more needed like Smoke Grenade.

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

Ravennans should be fun too. 😈

 

Incarnate tohit buffed monsters against a not quite incarnate softcapped scrapper did have some hurty spots.

[KaizenSoze]

I copied my max out fire farmer to the beta server.

 

90% fire resists, 45.8% fire defense, spines/fire/mu

 

I do not afk farm generally. I have an intense 5 map meteor farm that can be completed in around 20 minutes.

 

But I tried out the meteor map, I can see how the extra aggro could cause more afk farmer deaths. I am NOT saying afk meteor farming is dead, but due to the extra ranged attacks and with now a minimal range of 80. Farmers on small maps will be taking constant damage from more sources.

 

Something that folks might want to test.

[America's Angel]

7 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Something that folks might want to test.

 

You just need increased mitigation compared to live. Fire brutes should still be able to AFK farm just fine.

 

Will need to pick up the +HP accolades though. If that's too much effort, maybe switch to a stone/rad or stone/spines tank.

Edited July 14, 2022 by America's Angel

[Catalyze]

I copied my fire farmer to Beta and ran map 19823 which is a tunnel map. I had a friend door sitting to simulate a typical farm for me. I died on the first pull. I came back and went at it again and almost died. My farmer's health dropped in chunks of 1/4 to 1/2 at a time in a very few seconds. That is when I noticed all the packs ranging at me. Not just one or two but most of them. I adjusted my pulls to be smaller by never going beyond the first available pack. I would then pull damage from the pack beyond them and at least one pack to the side beyond them. I healed more per run than I have in a month total on Live. I don't like the change. It seems overdone to me as an attempt to just put difficulty in the game for no other reason than difficulty. 

1. I can still farm with my farmer. 

2. Farming on that map is not as easy or relaxing as it is now on Live.

3. Another part of the game has become less fun for me. I have not tested any other content than my usual farm map.

[America's Angel]

12 minutes ago, Catalyze said:

I copied my fire farmer to Beta and ran map 19823 which is a tunnel map. I had a friend door sitting to simulate a typical farm for me. I died on the first pull. I came back and went at it again and almost died. My farmer's health dropped in chunks of 1/4 to 1/2 at a time in a very few seconds. That is when I noticed all the packs ranging at me. Not just one or two but most of them. I adjusted my pulls to be smaller by never going beyond the first available pack. I would then pull damage from the pack beyond them and at least one pack to the side beyond them. I healed more per run than I have in a month total on Live. I don't like the change. It seems overdone to me as an attempt to just put difficulty in the game for no other reason than difficulty. 

1. I can still farm with my farmer. 

2. Farming on that map is not as easy or relaxing as it is now on Live.

3. Another part of the game has become less fun for me. I have not tested any other content than my usual farm map.

 

What are you using to farm with? I just tried my fire armour on map #19823 at +4/8 and it was able to do it just fine. Didn't have to use any heals. HP never dipped below 90%.

[KaizenSoze]

5 hours ago, Catalyze said:

I copied my fire farmer to Beta and ran map 19823 which is a tunnel map. I had a friend door sitting to simulate a typical farm for me. I died on the first pull. I came back and went at it again and almost died. My farmer's health dropped in chunks of 1/4 to 1/2 at a time in a very few seconds. That is when I noticed all the packs ranging at me. Not just one or two but most of them. I adjusted my pulls to be smaller by never going beyond the first available pack. I would then pull damage from the pack beyond them and at least one pack to the side beyond them. I healed more per run than I have in a month total on Live. I don't like the change. It seems overdone to me as an attempt to just put difficulty in the game for no other reason than difficulty. 

1. I can still farm with my farmer. 

2. Farming on that map is not as easy or relaxing as it is now on Live.

3. Another part of the game has become less fun for me. I have not tested any other content than my usual farm map.

What are your fire resist and defense values?

[Nemu]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:03 PM, The Curator said:

Aggro cap processing is more dynamic. Instead of using a rigid priority system, it now uses a simplified version of the normal threat calculation, taking into account distance, total damage done, taunt duration, and rank. It is also periodically re-evaluated instead of being locked in. This should prevent scenarios where an aggro-capped tank tries to taunt enemies off an ally and the taunt is completely ignored.

I'd be interested in understanding how this all works and how I can consistently pull off single pulls with this knowledge. I get the rank, distance, and damage done portion and how that impacts aggro, but I'd like to understand how adjacent enemy notifications work.

 

I can definitely see this mechanic being expanded upon where certain factions have a larger notification radius and magnitude vs others. Make difficulty hard enough and you introduce yet another dynamic in how teams handle such encounters.

[ironjoe]

So far I like this change as I have been testing it on tanks and non-tanks. Groups standing idly by never made sense and being able to taunt far groups while at cap is nice.