issue 27 Focused Feedback: Sheathed Weapon System

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

1. Back items don't scale with body size sliders, so the space has to be there to account for characters who turn the body scale up to max and pick torsos with layers like Jackets, otherwise the weapons would sheath into their spine. If the models were to get upgraded to support scaling back attachment points, I'd adjust the sheathed weapons to take advantage of it.
2. Needing to create countless extra models for actual weapon-fitting sheaths would have condemned this feature to not happening. Other MMOs don't do this either (World of Warcraft being the one that comes to mind) so it was given a pass.

There were system limitations, but despite them, we still felt a large amount of the playerbase would appreciate this option.

 

Yeah, as nice as sheaths would be to have (and I would very much like to have them), I'm still thrilled overall with what we are getting.  So, no complaints with this decision.

 

Besides, especially when I use an energy sword, it lets me get my PSO2 vibe on (where your weapons always hover in the air like that, and only a very few specific ones (some very ornate katanas, mostly) actually have sheaths.

 

And there are lots of ways to justify your sword hovering in mid-air off your back with either supertech (counter-grav, perhaps, or magnetics like in NieR:Automata) or magic.  Not so easy for the Natural types, of course, unless they're borrowing the tech from someone in their SG, say.

[Peacemoon]

I think it’s a really great change and completely unexpected, lovely surprise! Also the extra weapon choices!
There will be clipping issues but I guess it is up to the player to decide what clipping they can cope with. Clipping is an issue in most games though, especially when you can customise appearances! (And CoH has one of the best/most varied character creators!)

[ZorkNemesis]

I noticed that when you use the two laser swords (PX-17N Supernova and VK-99 Event Horizon) as Titan Weapon skins, the blades don't turn off when glued to the back like they do when used as other types of swords.  I assume that's just an oversight at the moment?

[ScarySai]

Love the sheathed weapons, curious if we could get activated versions of the sheathed laser-swords, though.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/13/2022 at 12:05 AM, Number Six said:

Besides, everyone knows that the electric guitar asset is an axe customization, not a mace...

 

I could figure it would be a bass for the battle axe, but apparently I had hear the term "axe" used to mean bass in the past when that wasn't the proper historical reference.

 

El Kabong uses it like a club which I would figure would be more mace than axe. 

 

 

I mean that is more smashing then lethal damage!

 

But, honestly, I have been looking for it more as a backpack cosmetic then a weapon really.

 

But I couldn't resist the El Kabong ..

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

There are lots of weapon customizations I want, but my biggest wants are a bokken (wooden practice sword) and shinai (bamboo practice sword) for Katana.  These got shot down on Live because it wouldn't match the damage type, but now we have lots of spears in staff that don't match the damage type, so maybe we can revisit this?  I mean, my Katana/Willpower is shamelessly derived from Ryouko Mitsurugi of Real Bout High School, who caused all of her carnage with a wooden sword!

 

A light sabre definitely doesn't match the damage type of Katana.

It might cut through something, but it is most definitely an energy weapon.

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

A light sabre definitely doesn't match the damage type of Katana.

It might cut through something, but it is most definitely an energy weapon.

 

Definitely.  So I see no reason why a bokken or shinai should be off-limits now.  And the bokken at least would probably be really easy to model (the shinai is a bit more complex).

 

Also, one minor glitch I have noticed when drawing sheathed Dual Blades, but only when using the VX-99 Event Horizon as the right blade (what you are using in the left slot doesn't seem to affect it, I tried several different ones to be sure).  The left blade draws correctly, but the right one just kinda disappears and then reappears in the character's hand at the end of the draw animation.

 

I'm not sure why it only happens with that particular sword (I tested a bunch of others and didn't see the problem with any of them).

[Starhammer]

So I love the concept. I'm not as thrilled by the implementation across the board though.

 

Lets start with Katanas. Maybe it's just me but it looks wrong on the right hip (especially considering all single pistol holsters are already on that hip). I can see why one may want it there, but I'd much prefer the left hip. Of course, being able to choose one hip or the other would be best. Also, the various energy blade Katanas look goofy sticking forward as far as they do. Even if it's just for those few models, if it were possible I'd love to see them hanging as if from a belt clip, the way most Space Sorcerers seem to carry their Glowbats. Much less of an issue than the side they hang on, since for just those, it's easy enough to just not use the feature.

Broadswords, Maces, Axes: These are generally fine, though again, I'd love to be able to choose sheathing to the hip or back, and on which side. Smaller weapons, like daggers and cleavers especially, as well as the rapiers, would probably look vastly better on a hip...  One potential nitpick to this idea probably not worth the art editing time, but maybe: If Axes and Maces were to be given the option of hanging from a hip, some of them (individual judgement call) should probably be turned upside down to hang (head at top, pointed forward), especially single headed axes. Just best if it looks like it's balanced properly.

 

Otherwise great work. Next on to Boot Sheathes 😛

[Zappalina]

I love the ability to have weapons on the back, (first picture) if I can figure out get a few more things on there I can do a sister to the Agnes the Trash lady in Labyrinth that had all of that stuff on her back.  This is my DB Tanker with a Mace and Backpack and butt cape.   Thank you, I think it is a nice option for weapons costuming, all of the Dual blades are going onto the back on my tanker, as is the mace, seeing the Rularuu eyes on the swords and mace move it's eyes around is actually cool & amusing. (second pic) So far they're all groovy looking and any clipping isn't something that is unappealing visually. 

 

 

[Enforcer]

Please please please do something for Archer/Bows!!! something like the compound bow folding up and sitting on the bottom of a characters back? 

 

Also Assault riles and Dual Pistols! Dual Pistols on the hips is something I'm sure everyone wants lol (with holsters wink wink)

Edited July 14, 2022 by Enforcer

[Starhammer]

5 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

There are lots of weapon customizations I want, but my biggest wants are a bokken (wooden practice sword) and shinai (bamboo practice sword) for Katana.  These got shot down on Live because it wouldn't match the damage type, but now we have lots of spears in staff that don't match the damage type, so maybe we can revisit this?  I mean, my Katana/Willpower is shamelessly derived from Ryouko Mitsurugi of Real Bout High School, who caused all of her carnage with a wooden sword!

 

Personally, I would have merged Axe and War Mace into the same set (Axe/Mace). Then I would proliferate all or mostly all melee weapons across all melee weapon sets, as well as added "Invisible" melee weapons for each set (Invisible pistols too, for "Gun Hands"). The math and damage types that go into how a set functions are far less important (to me) than making a characters attacks look like I want them to. Even if that means using Axe/Mace like a fist attack or Dual Wielding barbarian axes.

Of course that's a bit more of a "from the ground up" overhaul than I expect they're willing to do.

[Stormwalker]

Just now, Starhammer said:

 

Personally, I would have merged Axe and War Mace into the same set (Axe/Mace). Then I would proliferate all or mostly all melee weapons across all melee weapon sets, as well as added "Invisible" melee weapons for each set (Invisible pistols too, for "Gun Hands"). The math and damage types that go into how a set functions are far less important (to me) than making a characters attacks look like I want them to. Even if that means using Axe/Mace like a fist attack or Dual Wielding barbarian axes.

Of course that's a bit more of a "from the ground up" overhaul than I expect they're willing to do.

 

In my case, it was specifically the devs on Live that shot down the bokken and shinai for the stated reason.  Against their design philosophy at the time (though they gave us energy weapons later, so apparently their design philosophy changed and I didn't think to ask again, which I should have).

[Trademarked Name]

Not sure if it was designed this way, but broadsword scrappers get swords on the back. The way it was stated sounded like "ninja blades" would be back mounted due to theme, so I assumed that the other sets would be side-mounted by default. But maybe that's my bad assumption. I can see why many of the larger swords just look way better, as well as dual blades like daggers. 
Also, not sure if it's a glitch, but I thought the Stalker-Ninja Blade was animating drawing from the back at first, but after I changed to some different sword types, it appears as though the blade just jumps/appears in the hands. I haven't tried logging off and logging back on to see if it's a glitch of cycling through blade types.

[Stormwalker]

Just now, Trademarked Name said:

Not sure if it was designed this way, but broadsword scrappers get swords on the back. The way it was stated sounded like "ninja blades" would be back mounted due to theme, so I assumed that the other sets would be side-mounted by default. But maybe that's my bad assumption. I can see why many of the larger swords just look way better, as well as dual blades like daggers. 
Also, not sure if it's a glitch, but I thought the Stalker-Ninja Blade was animating drawing from the back at first, but after I changed to some different sword types, it appears as though the blade just jumps/appears in the hands. I haven't tried logging off and logging back on to see if it's a glitch of cycling through blade types.

 

Make sure you don't have a No Redraw power customization (don't know if there is one for Ninja Blade or not off the top of my head).  No Redraw will cause the draw animation to be skipped and the weapon will basically teleport to your hand.

[Trademarked Name]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Make sure you don't have a No Redraw power customization (don't know if there is one for Ninja Blade or not off the top of my head).  No Redraw will cause the draw animation to be skipped and the weapon will basically teleport to your hand.

Thank you for thinking of that. But it did occur to me that I might have accidentally hit "no redraw". togging it off and on seemed to have no affect. I'll tinker with it some and see if I can figure out what the trigger is.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Trademarked Name said:

Thank you for thinking of that. But it did occur to me that I might have accidentally hit "no redraw". togging it off and on seemed to have no affect. I'll tinker with it some and see if I can figure out what the trigger is.

Sounds like you might be running into something similar to what I ran into with dual blades and the VX-99 Event Horizon in the right hand earlier (where the left blade draws fine, but the right blade teleports, even though the full draw animation is played).

[Trademarked Name]

I think I figured out the problem I am having. In "Original" stance, the blades draw. But if I change the stance to Parkour or Blitz, the blades teleport. The minute I change back to "Original Stance" the animation for drawing the blade works again. So it's as if the parkour and blitz are only "no redraw" inherently. At least with a female ninja blade stalker.

In this case, my OCD isn't really triggered by the weapon just disappearing from the back and appearing in-hand. I'm actually fine with that if it's a bug. And to be honest, I'm not a fan of the parkour or blitz run styles so I probably won't be using them on any toons anyhow.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Trademarked Name

[Herotu]

First, I want to say how grateful and excited I am about this change, it's one of the big things I had on my mind and I even said as much last week in one of the forum threads! Thank you very much to the people involved in this. Big hearts to you! ❤️

 

 

50 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

No Redraw will cause the draw animation to be skipped and the weapon will basically teleport to your hand.

I was wondering about this... I use no redraw on my characters so they don't pull their weapon from nowhere each time they do an attack. Will that be different in future? I haven't got the beta client.

 

The desirable version, as I see it,

• would store the weapon sheathed,
• then draw it when it's clobberin' time,
• continually have it in their hand whilst clobberin' (several attacks)
• then put it away when the clobberin's all said and done.

Is that one of the options (no redraw/normal)?

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Herotu

[Stormwalker]

3 minutes ago, Herotu said:

First, I want to say how grateful and excited I am about this change, it's one of the big things I had on my mind and I even said as much last week in one of the forum threads! Thank you very much to the people involved in this. Big hearts to you! ❤️

 

 

I was wondering about this... I use no redraw on my characters so they don't pull their weapon from nowhere each time they do an attack. Will that be different in future? I haven't got the beta client.

 

The desirable version, as I see it,

• would store the weapon sheathed,
• then draw it when it's clobberin' time,
• continually have it in their hand whilst clobberin'
• then put it away when the clobberin's all said and done.

Is that one of the options (no redraw/normal)?

 

 

I agree, this is also how I would ideally like it to work.  If that's not viable, though, teleporting weapons don't really bother me much (especially since at least some of my characters could absolutely justify that trick anyway!)

Edited July 14, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Trademarked Name]

4 minutes ago, Herotu said:

First, I want to say how grateful and excited I am about this change, it's one of the big things I had on my mind and I even said as much last week in one of the forum threads! Thank you very much to the people involved in this. Big hearts to you! ❤️

 

 

I was wondering about this... I use no redraw on my characters so they don't pull their weapon from nowhere each time they do an attack. Will that be different in future? I haven't got the beta client.

 

The desirable version, as I see it,

• would store the weapon sheathed,
• then draw it when it's clobberin' time,
• continually have it in their hand whilst clobberin' (several attacks)
• then put it away when the clobberin's all said and done.

Is that one of the options (no redraw/normal)?

 

I think you should try the Beta and see how it works. I think using the word "Sheath" is bad term to use. There is no sheath or scabbard. The weapon is "mounted" or "situated" in an at-ready position either on the hip or back. It sits in this situated position until drawn at which point it disappears from the hip/back location and is in the hand. Likewise while in "attack" mode while running, it stays in the hand. 
The idea that devs could actually make a meshed scabbard accessory appropriate for every type of blade side and back and have it align for every body scaling, I believe is a bit too much to ask the devs for. Personally, I would have simply been happy with a generic "backpack" of crossed matte black swords (even though I use single sword) on the back that is static even with weapon in hand. So, getting this mounted/situated sidearm that is drawn (disappears from situ) in animation is next tier and more than I would have hoped for.  

[Herotu]

1 minute ago, Trademarked Name said:

I think you should try the Beta and see how it works. I think using the word "Sheath" is bad term to use. 

Just to clear this up: I didn't name the system and I don't care about any actual sheaths.

[Marshal_General]

10 hours ago, Herotu said:

Just to clear this up: I didn't name the system and I don't care about any actual sheaths.

To be fair, you sheath your weapon as a verb meaning to put it away from your hand to its carrier while usually a sheath, it also means any weapon holder like a belt loop for hand axes.

[Trademarked Name]

10 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

To be fair, you sheath your weapon as a verb meaning to put it away from your hand to its carrier while usually a sheath, it also means any weapon holder like a belt loop for hand axes.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if you look up the dictionary definition, the transitive verb form means "To put into or furnish with a sheath", "to plunge or bury a weapon into flesh", "to case or cover with something that protects". By definition there is a physical article involved aside from the weapon itself. Hanging something on a belt loop would not qualify as "sheathing". But a blade cover (for axes it is also called a sheath) would qualify.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Trademarked Name
added to my thoughts for clarification

[ShardWarrior]

Have to say this is very, very cool.  Draw animations for Titan Weapons and Katana are a bit clunky but overall far superior to what we have now.  Dual blades looks sweet!  With Katana, it looks like the sword appears in the drawing hand briefly, disappears then is drawn as expected.

 

Overall very nicely done! 😀

Edited July 14, 2022 by ShardWarrior

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, Trademarked Name said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if you look up the dictionary definition, the transitive verb form means "To put into or furnish with a sheath", "to plunge or bury a weapon into flesh", "to case or cover with something that protects". By definition there is a physical article involved aside from the weapon itself. Hanging something on a belt loop would not qualify as "sheathing". But a blade cover (for axes it is also called a sheath) would qualify.

If we are being extremely literal, then yes, but if we define it as how it is used in sentences then it falls under the same rules that people use when they ask for a coke but don't mean Coke or tell someone to google it when they mean search. That way, sheath means put it away. 🧐