archetype suggestion Archetype Suggestion: The Duo

[malonkey1]

4 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

Your call, obviously, but interesting that you'd bring this up. It relates to a criticism/suggestion I thought of, but didn't ultimately comment on.

 

Going back to your examples, based on the powers they have available at level 1, a Dom is a CCer with attacks. MMs are a Pet AT with Support. Tankers are Armored Attackers and by reversing the pools, Scrappers are Attackers with Armor.

 

So what is Duo based on it's level 1 picks? A Pet class with Armor.

 

If that's by design, that's fine. But for a Duo, two people fighting together, I don't think the pet summon should be in the Primary. If it is to be available at level 1, I think it should be the T1 Secondary. This would give you an attack and a pet right away. This specific combination offers clear indication how this AT is meant to be played, aggressively with your partner (and if you so choose, would even if you the opportunity to pick a melee or ranged attack as your first Primary pick). Additionally, if you have a pet, you don't need an armor toggle immediately anyway.

 

Conceptually, it's a dramatic departure. But mechanically, it makes more sense. It also opens up the AT to more varied Duo combinations. You and your pet can fight similarly, or you can have radically different combat styles. You can Fastball Special any pet. Going back to what I previously proposed, you Thunderclap and your companion, as a sign of comradory and a personal connection to you, has learned how to emulate the effect to also Thunderclap, even if it's not normally a part of their powerset.

That's a valid point. I could move the pet to the secondary with the armor and support and make the primary all attacks.

[Voldine]

1 hour ago, malonkey1 said:

That's a valid point. I could move the pet to the secondary with the armor and support and make the primary all attacks.

I would like to second this notion. Attaching the partner to the defense set still provides a thematic link between the two members of the Duo while the partner being forced to echo certain signature attacks of the primary powerset  (maybe only gaining access to them two levels after you do?) still gives the impression that they are learning from you.

 

Edit to add: The easiest way to add the echo function with the limitation of the partner not being able to use the signature powers immediately would probably be to combine a 'pet upgrade if in range' effect with the next available toggle power in the secondary set...

 

Something like: if player owns primary tier 5 power pet gains effect echo primary tier 5 power if secondary tier 5 power is active. This would create a longer 'learning delay' for the pet echoing t9 attacks, but that also makes sense.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Voldine

[malonkey1]

1 minute ago, Voldine said:

I would like to second this notion. Attaching the partner to the defense set still provides a thematic link between the two members of the Duo while the partner being forced to echo certain signature attacks of the primary powerset  (maybe only gaining access to them two levels after you do?) still gives the impression that they are learning from you.

Okay, that I can't really do. The powers of the lottery are hard coded into each pet. I could see powers in the primaries that give your pet some attacks from your primary, but I really don't think dynamically and automatically granting new attacks based on your powers would work, pr at least would be really hard to make work.

[Voldine]

4 minutes ago, malonkey1 said:

Okay, that I can't really do. The powers of the lottery are hard coded into each pet. I could see powers in the primaries that give your pet some attacks from your primary, but I really don't think dynamically and automatically granting new attacks based on your powers would work, pr at least would be really hard to make work.

See my edits above. ^^^

[Voldine]

I will note that I am very much not a coder; I'm a person who is simply good at math and patterns. My suggestion about having 2-3 tiers of 'armor/pet' set powers contain a rider effect when active to refer to the same tier power in the player's primary set and to cast it ASAP after the player uses it is based on the fact that we, as players, would expect any pet-altering abilities to be baked into the same powerset that grants us the pet. By pre-selecting which tiers of attack powers would be designated as 'signature' attacks you create a standard for the archetype and can slightly reorganize the levels at which certain attacks are gained so they coincide with the signature levels.

 

Honestly, I think the only problematic 'signature' attack power following this idea would be the toggled attack in Spines...can't remember the name.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Ive pondered this concept abit since I first noticed this thread but didnt want to just spout off random ideas.

 

Here is how I would do this AT basically, The partner wouldnt be a mere pet, but basically a 2nd character. Id make both pools basically be various offensive power pools, melee, ranged, and hybrid mixtures.

 

Basically the primary pool would be character As abilities, and partner/pet would be using the powers of 2ndary pool. Id make sure the pools all had abit of survival utility like the martial set in blaster 2ndary, dark melee primary etc. some modest ways to heal but focus this as mainly a very offensive approach but basically youd bea  blaster who didnt have to actively use your 2ndary attacks as that would be handled by the computer through the partner/pet

 

Alternatively it could be something akin to a defender, where the primary character uses the offensive powers, and the computer guided partner/pet would be handling the use of the support powers, Id see this as a way for those who favor playing blasters etc and ignoring AT like defenders play offensively while bringing strong support. Id say this is enough different then an MM where the primary offense is from the pets and the support from the player. Basically flipping the roles and functionality of the MM AT.

[malonkey1]

Okay, taking Voldine's suggestions, here's the model I'm going with.

 

Still Assault Primary, Defense/Support Hybrid Secondary. The Pet is moved to the Secondary set as the first power.

 

In the primaries, the Build Up has been removed, and the Build-Up and final power are replaced with Upgrade-like powers that grant a single power from your main set to your Partner pet.

Edited July 30, 2019 by malonkey1

[Voldine]

57 minutes ago, malonkey1 said:

Okay, taking Voldine's suggestions, here's the model I'm going with.

 

Still Assault Primary, Defense/Support Hybrid Secondary. The Pet is moved to the Secondary set as the first power.

 

In the primaries, the Build Up has been removed, and the Build-Up and final power are replaced with Upgrade-like powers that grant a single power from your main set to your Partner pet.

So I take it there was no way to attach an ability to a power in the secondary set that refers to the primary set? It seems like such a waste to not have a tier 9 power in the primary power set for attacking that then could be copied by the partner by having a power in the secondary set check to see 'does the player have the tier 9 power in the primary set?' and then give that tier 9 power to the pet, as well as at least one other power, and as a secondary effect on a defense/resist aura toggle or something rather than a single dedicated power.

[malonkey1]

2 minutes ago, Voldine said:

So I take it there was no way to attach an ability to a power in the secondary set that refers to the primary set? It seems like such a waste to not have a tier 9 power in the primary power set for attacking that then could be copied by the partner by having a power in the secondary set check to see 'does the player have the tier 9 power in the primary set?' and then give that tier 9 power to the pet, as well as at least one other power, and as a secondary effect on a defense/resist aura toggle or something rather than a single dedicated power.

I couldn't find any way to do it. Maybe it's possible, but I don't have the knowledge to pull it off. Having the ability to share certain powers from your primary with your pet in a manner similar to the upgrades from Masterminds was the best compromise I could manage.

[Voldine]

Maybe a good compromise would be to, rather than sacrificing the tier 9 power entirely, make the tier 8 power what would have been the tier 9 power so that the upgrade tier 9 power can then refer to the power before it. This way super strength would still have foot Stomp, Etc.

[malonkey1]

10 minutes ago, Voldine said:

Maybe a good compromise would be to, rather than sacrificing the tier 9 power entirely, make the tier 8 power what would have been the tier 9 power so that the upgrade tier 9 power can then refer to the power before it. This way super strength would still have foot Stomp, Etc.

If I do that, it might be better to just move the upgrade down to T8 and keep T9 where it is.

[Voldine]

1 minute ago, malonkey1 said:

If I do that, it might be better to just move the upgrade down to T8 and keep T9 where it is.

You mean give the partner the awesome tier 9 power before the player gets it? That'd just be weird.

 

I mean, most people would consider melee tier 9 powers to be one of the two signature powers of the set, definitely one of the powers you don't want to lose out on, especially if you're not getting the option to take build-up or any of the various clones of it. Melee tier 9's would also generally be one of the best powers to proliferate over to your partner since the only thing better than great damage is doing more of it quicker.

[malonkey1]

Just now, Voldine said:

You mean give the partner the awesome tier 9 power before the player gets it? That'd just be weird.

 

I mean, most people would consider melee tier 9 powers to be one of the two signature powers of the set, definitely one of the powers you don't want to lose out on, especially if you're not getting the option to take build-up or any of the various clones of it. Melee tier 9's would also generally be one of the best powers to proliferate over to your partner since the only thing better than great damage is doing more of it quicker.

I'm not planning on giving the partner the Tier 9. I don't think the partner needs to have access to as many and as powerful a set of attacks as the player. They're the sidekick.

[Zepp]

I was just thinking, if you move the pet to the secondary with armor, you may want to consider using the Stalker armor sets and simply replacing hide with the pet...

[Voldine]

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

I was just thinking, if you move the pet to the secondary with armor, you may want to consider using the Stalker armor sets and simply replacing hide with the pet...

And then giving the armor powers a small AOE that covers/only affects the partner/pet to reflect the idea that the player is teaching the partner how to fight better while also guarding them. (Active powers only, of course. Auto-powers would still only go on the player I'd think.)

 

"Here, Bluejay, have a [magiteknobabble] to give yourself the same [armor toggle] as I have. (If not natural/mutant)" -Captain Cardinal.

 

 

[malonkey1]

9 hours ago, Voldine said:

And then giving the armor powers a small AOE that covers/only affects the partner/pet to reflect the idea that the player is teaching the partner how to fight better while also guarding them. (Active powers only, of course. Auto-powers would still only go on the player I'd think.)

 

"Here, Bluejay, have a [magiteknobabble] to give yourself the same [armor toggle] as I have. (If not natural/mutant)" -Captain Cardinal.

 

 

That was the plan. The armors are supposed to have an aura that applies the full effect top the poet and a weak effect to everyone else.

Edited July 30, 2019 by malonkey1

[Teirusu]

5 hours ago, malonkey1 said:

That was the plan. The armors are supposed to have an aura that applies the full effect top the poet and a weak effect to everyone else.

In-case you don't know, when it comes to mez protection, (If you were planning to grant mez protection to the pet) the original Devs were specifically against being able to grant mez protection via AOEs.  (Besides the Incarnate powers, that is.)

The particular example I'm thinking I recall is Increased Density.  I believe it only grants the mez protection to the original target and not anyone else that gets hit with the AOE part.  Anyone hit by the AOE is only granted the Resistances.

 

I mention this because, since this is your only pet, it might be a good idea if they had some token mez protection?  That being said, I'm not an MM person so I'm not sure if the tier-3 pet already has some built in, but I thought they didn't.

[Voldine]

13 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

In-case you don't know, when it comes to mez protection, (If you were planning to grant mez protection to the pet) the original Devs were specifically against being able to grant mez protection via AOEs.  (Besides the Incarnate powers, that is.)

The particular example I'm thinking I recall is Increased Density.  I believe it only grants the mez protection to the original target and not anyone else that gets hit with the AOE part.  Anyone hit by the AOE is only granted the Resistances.

 

I mention this because, since this is your only pet, it might be a good idea if they had some token mez protection?  That being said, I'm not an MM person so I'm not sure if the tier-3 pet already has some built in, but I thought they didn't.

Simple (if hacky) solution: Pet/Partner has the armor set's mez protection power granted by default, assuming it isn't possible for one of the upgrade powers to do so.

[malonkey1]

5 hours ago, Teirusu said:

In-case you don't know, when it comes to mez protection, (If you were planning to grant mez protection to the pet) the original Devs were specifically against being able to grant mez protection via AOEs.  (Besides the Incarnate powers, that is.)

The particular example I'm thinking I recall is Increased Density.  I believe it only grants the mez protection to the original target and not anyone else that gets hit with the AOE part.  Anyone hit by the AOE is only granted the Resistances.

 

I mention this because, since this is your only pet, it might be a good idea if they had some token mez protection?  That being said, I'm not an MM person so I'm not sure if the tier-3 pet already has some built in, but I thought they didn't.

4 hours ago, Voldine said:

Simple (if hacky) solution: Pet/Partner has the armor set's mez protection power granted by default, assuming it isn't possible for one of the upgrade powers to do so.

Yeah, the Mez Protection parts of the auras will be self/pet only, while still granting the other benefits of the aura to those within it.

 

Also, I got the auras to work the way I want, and the power upgrades are online, too! Full effect for you and your partner, half effect for other friendlies! Pics will be added tomorrow.

 

The only big thing now before i can properly start testing is coding the inherent and making more powersets!

Edited July 31, 2019 by malonkey1

[Voldine]

Proof of concept! Yay!

[malonkey1]

I have the inherent working. I had to do a sneaky little workaround because it affects you and the pet. Basically, the player has a power that only grants the bonus to their pet, plus also granting the pet a similar power but only affecting its master. As a result, neither has the bonus unless both are in range.

 

Giving the partner inspirations doesn't work, nor does bodyguarding, but that's because it's hardcoded to nly work for Masterminds, and I'm trying to avoid changes to client or server code to make this work. That said, this is going pretty well! I just need to make more powersets and I can have proper material to test it.

 

That said, I feel like the inherent is a little too similar to Supremacy. I was actually considering changing it to be a little like the Blaster's Defiance, with each attack you use applying a small, brief +DMG to your pet.

Edited August 1, 2019 by malonkey1

[malonkey1]

Did some basic testing. Played through the first three Signature Arcs at +0x1, at intervals of 10 levels (so 10, 20 and 30). Slotted with LV++ enhancements of the appropriate types (10++ TOs, 20++ DOs, and 30++ SOs.)

 

Overall, it did pretty well. The character chewed through things a bit faster than I expected at around level 10, but seemed not to be much faster than most character's I've played at that level. Around 20, I had some END issues, but that's to be expected when you're running a lot of toggles, and the character was still going through missions without too many issues beyond the odd tough boss. Level 30 the character had really start to come together. Even with the toggles the pet is just a tinge fragile, but as long as you manage it and concentrate fire on the biggest guy, and supplement with some of the support and debuff, it's not too bad.

 

I think I'm ready to call what I have here Alpha 0.1 of the Duo archetype.

 

I still have to iron out some kinks in the Inherent (I made a typo so it didn't confer the right bonus), and I might rearrange the later tiers a bit, but I think this might actually be a pretty fun archetype to play, and I look forward to showing off a little bit more later.

 

One funny thing is that due to how I coded the Upgrades from the primary, it affects any targetable pet, not just your Partner. I'll probably fix that, but it's kind of neat having an archetype that can just grant a mission NPC a new attack power.

 

Probably sometime over the next couple days I'll have more stuff to show you, but for now here's a couple of screenshots. If they look a little weird, it's because they came out real dark and I had to brighten them in GIMP.

"Testing a new archetype can be exhausting, huh Lich?" "Souls...feed me souls..." "Er, right, whatever you need buddy."



 

Banestorm and the Lich dropping fools.

[Jeuraud]

Way to collaborate folks; this has been a fun thread to read, and I really like the Pet in the secondary. I would definitely give this AT a go.

Thanks Malonkey1.

[Demon Shell]

This AT was a pretty cool concept, but the edits to the first post are excellent. This looks very close to something you'd expect to see in game.

 

The 6 Armor moves to 2 Miasmas is a little jarring though. Obviously something like Tar Patch or Darkest Night would be too much (and I'm pretty sure no one wants Black Hole).

 

I thought for a moment (and you probably did too) about Shadow Fall instead of Cloak of Darkness, but that would put you over-the-top on Negative/Psionic resist and eliminate Dark Armor's weakness to Energy. Maybe some amalgam of the two (Shadow Cloak?) that offers AoE stealth/defense/perception/immobilization protection?

 

I also thought (instead of the above) you could maybe sneak into Dark Manipulation and grab Dark Consumption or Touch of Fear instead of Oppressive Gloom.

[malonkey1]

5 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

This AT was a pretty cool concept, but the edits to the first post are excellent. This looks very close to something you'd expect to see in game.

 

The 6 Armor moves to 2 Miasmas is a little jarring though. Obviously something like Tar Patch or Darkest Night would be too much (and I'm pretty sure no one wants Black Hole).

 

I thought for a moment (and you probably did too) about Shadow Fall instead of Cloak of Darkness, but that would put you over-the-top on Negative/Psionic resist and eliminate Dark Armor's weakness to Energy. Maybe some amalgam of the two (Shadow Cloak?) that offers AoE stealth/defense/perception/immobilization protection?

 

I also thought (instead of the above) you could maybe sneak into Dark Manipulation and grab Dark Consumption or Touch of Fear instead of Oppressive Gloom.

Yeah, I will probably be rearranging things to make the non-armor support powers more evenly distributed. Now that I have things working, I'm going to actually plan things out more when I build the rest of the powersets, and I'll be doing some modifications to Dark Armor.

 

I do have Epic pools made, though! I also applied the Sniper fix from i24 to LRM rocket for the Duo version, and it's pretty easy to proliferate that to the Blaster.

Edited August 4, 2019 by malonkey1