Focused Feedback: Reward Merits

[Oklahoman]

14 hours ago, Booper said:

Lambda Sector Trial = 20 Reward Merits

 

Double check my understanding on this: I can run a speed LAM which takes about 12 minutes, and on top of the rewards I'm already getting I would ALSO get 20 Reward Merits? Per run? That seems crazy to me.

 

For MSRs, can we drop 20 reward merits to the league just for finishing the raid?

[skoryy]

27 minutes ago, arcane said:

What are you talking about man? You think this is the only means of making money in this game? I have 100+ characters that are purpled to the teeth and have never done this type of conversion once. 

 

Yeah, multiple tricked out 50s here as well, don't recall ever going emp to RM.  Needed the emps far more for gold and purple incarnate salvage.

[Cobalt Arachne]

25 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Double check my understanding on this: I can run a speed LAM which takes about 12 minutes, and on top of the rewards I'm already getting I would ALSO get 20 Reward Merits? Per run? That seems crazy to me.

 

For MSRs, can we drop 20 reward merits to the league just for finishing the raid?

A patch note detail was missed that I just added to the main patch note post and the original post in this thread.

Those Incarnate Trial Reward Merits are subject to the standard 18 hour cooldown on the same character and are priced at the exact numbers you'd have gotten if you converted all the Empyrean/Astrals you earned from a fresh run into Reward Merits.

These were added as a bonus to ensure the reward values of running Incarnate Trials remained relatively the same even with the removal of the conversion option.

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

A patch note detail was missed that I just added to the main patch note post and the original post in this thread.

Those reward merits are subject to the standard 18 hour cooldown on the same character and are priced at the exact value you'd have gotten if you converted all the Empyrean/Astrals you earned from a fresh run into Reward Merits. These were added as a bonus to ensure the reward values of running Incarnate Trials remained relatively the same even with the removal of the conversion option.

 

I'd recommend doing the same reward merit boost for Dark Astoria and other quests that reward emps as well.  This way all non-vet level methods are covered.

[brattycommissar2]

Just now, skoryy said:

 

I'd recommend doing the same reward merit boost for Dark Astoria and other quests that reward emps as well.  This way all non-vet level methods are covered.

this is a great idea tbh! 100% behind its implementation

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

I'd recommend doing the same reward merit boost for Dark Astoria and other quests that reward emps as well.  This way all non-vet level methods are covered.

We can probably look at adding Reward Merits to those arcs, but how many they get would be based on the datamined median completion time like all other story arc content.

Originally on the retail servers, those Dark Astoria story arcs only gave their incarnate rewards one time ever, on the first non-Ouroboros completion per character, but that was changed to be every completion to allow for super-accessible solo-capable incarnate power progression, a purpose they still serve completely intact with the changes, and not something we're planning to remove or change.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

7 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Yeah, multiple tricked out 50s here as well, don't recall ever going emp to RM.  Needed the emps far more for gold and purple incarnate salvage.

It is far faster to run speed run the Heather Townsend arc in Dark Astoria, and take the random incarnate reward roll than it is to convert Emp merits to rare and very rare incarnate salvage.

 

All of my tier 4 incarnates except for my first incarnate toon were done this way. My first toon was done the hard way with trials, and conversion etc.  It now takes me between 35 and 50 runs at about 10~15 minutes each to complete all 6 incarnate slots to T4 depending on my power set choices.  i do convert the few i earn during this process to salvage if needed, but its not normally needed. I cant earn enough emp merits in that time to do but a couple of the salvage pieces at most.

 

I tend to use the Process of running the arc in DA to learn how to play my new lvl 50, that I PL'd via  AE farming. its a good way to get familiar with the powers, try out combos, etc and get a reward at the end.

 

what I am always left with is a bunch of extra emp merits after T4s are all unlocked, so what else is there to do with them, but convert them to help finish out my builds.  I could email them to another toon, bu then that denies me the opportunity to learn to play the new character.  Basically, my motivation and playstyle is different than yours, but who really is to say, yours is right, and mine is wrong. 

 

Do you have fun when you play? I do,  and the way I play is what makes my time Fun.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

13 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We can probably look at adding Reward Merits to those arcs, but how many they get would be based on the datamined median completion time like all other story arc content.

Originally on the retail servers, those Dark Astoria story arcs only gave their incarnate rewards one time ever, on the first non-Ouroboros completion per character, but that was changed to be every completion to allow for super-accessible solo-capable incarnate power progression, a purpose they still serve completely intact with the changes.

I can definitely say, that if the DA arcs were nerfed and put on a reward cool-down timer, It would be a death nail for me and my account, and would be the single largest mistake the Dev team could ever possibly make for the "solo player". Good job for realizing this and shutting down the notion, before it got out of hand. kuddos

Edited July 19, 2022 by Mr. Apocalypse

[ShardWarrior]

If too many reward merits from EMP conversion was a problem, why not add in more things to spend those reward merits on?  I mean, you all are creating yet another in-game currency to buy costumes?  Just use merits.  Or add converting them into the same sort of reward table where the amount that can be converted is limited per day.

Edited July 19, 2022 by ShardWarrior

[Cobalt Arachne]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

If too many reward merits from EMP conversion was a problem, why not add in more things to spend those reward merits on?  I mean, you all are creating yet another in-game currency to buy costumes?  Just use merits.  Or add converting them into the same sort of reward table where the amount that can be converted is limited per day.

Specific to the new costumes rewards and the new Aether currency: They were added primarily to incentivize running the new Advanced Difficulty content, with the few slower methods included as a generosity to make Tier 1 costumes reasonably accessible to anybody who wants them.

Adding the new rewards to an existing currency that most people have huge stockpiles of doesn't accomplish anything other than removing a tiny amount of those stockpiles from the economy, which doesn't make that new content any more appealing and thus doesn't accomplish the intended goal.

[Coyotedancer]

For people who don't do the iThing and are grumping now about their emps being useless.... Adding other things to spend them on might not be a bad idea. They don't even necessarily need to be things that can be monetized.

 

What if Luna were to offer Emp exchanges for her old annual badges? Or if there were Emp-based prices added for the new costume powers as an alternative to the new currency? (Or put in an Emp-to-new-currency conversion, for that matter... Though I do realize that would quickly turn into a monetized resource)

 

Emps for high end random recipe rolls, AE ticket style? Emps for random ATOs? (Also potentially monetized, but still more fun for people than a pile of super inspirations...)

 

There are a lot of possibilities beyond just stashing them to incarnate the next alt.

 

 

ETA: Cross-posted with Cobalt there. It's too bad about the Aether conversion being off the table. That carrot for getting people to run the new challenge settings is sort of dead in the water for us solos and small-team folk. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Specific to the new costumes rewards and the new Aether currency: They were added primarily to incentivize running the new Advanced Difficulty content, with the few slower methods included as a generosity to make Tier 1 costumes reasonably accessible to anybody who wants them.

Adding the new rewards to an existing currency that most people have huge stockpiles of doesn't accomplish anything other than removing a tiny amount of those stockpiles from the economy, which doesn't make that new content any more appealing and thus doesn't accomplish the intended goal.

 

Unless I am mistaken, my recollection of the few requests there were for advanced difficulty options was that the game is too easy and people wanted more of a challenge.  Having the challenge itself is incentive enough for them based on what those requested it had said.  I guess that is no longer the case? 

[Cobalt Arachne]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Unless I am mistaken, my recollection of the few requests there were for advanced difficulty options was that the game is too easy and people wanted more of a challenge.  Having the challenge itself is incentive enough for them based on what those requested it had said.  I guess that is no longer the case? 

This is getting a bit off-topic, so this will be my last reply on it here, but our original stance, was, and still is: You'll never be forced to do Advanced Difficulty content in order to get rewards required to increase your power. The new rewards are purely vanity rewards and somebody who ignores Advanced Difficulty content loses out on nothing of functional value.

If Advanced Difficulty modes were to be worth the development time to design and create, they needed to have a little more broad-appeal and provide something lucrative to get people to try them, but not in a way that made them feel forced to do so.

[DarknessEternal]

Notice that there's still no explanation from the Devs for why this is a problem that has to be obliterated.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We can probably look at adding Reward Merits to those arcs, but how many they get would be based on the datamined median completion time like all other story arc content.

 

If it helps get/keep people in Dark Astoria and other solo incarnate content to possibly come, I think it'd be a good idea.

[DarknessEternal]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We can probably look at adding Reward Merits to those arcs, but how many they get would be based on the datamined median completion time like all other story arc content.
 

Are you trying to get people to quit the game?

[DarknessEternal]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

What are you talking about man? You think this is the only means of making money in this game? I have 100+ characters that are purpled to the teeth and have never done this type of conversion once. 

Yes, you are the problem.

 

These changes are meaningless to you because you already have infinite wealth.

 

These changes hinder everyone new from achieving the same.

[Excraft]

54 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

This is getting a bit off-topic, so this will be my last reply on it here, but our original stance, was, and still is: You'll never be forced to do Advanced Difficulty content in order to get rewards required to increase your power. The new rewards are purely vanity rewards and somebody who ignores Advanced Difficulty content loses out on nothing of functional value.

If Advanced Difficulty modes were to be worth the development time to design and create, they needed to have a little more broad-appeal and provide something lucrative to get people to try them, but not in a way that made them feel forced to do so.

 

I gotta agree that people who shouted for the advanced difficulty said they just wanted more of a challenge.  This is what happens when you base your direction and design decisions around what a handful of people ask for.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Yes, you are the problem.

 

These changes are meaningless to you because you already have infinite wealth.

 

These changes hinder everyone new from achieving the same.

??? But the point is you said wealth is rendered unattainable by this change, which is *obviously* false because I accrued 100% of my wealth without ever using this tool. No one is hindered in any way I was not hindered too.

Edited July 19, 2022 by arcane

[ForeverLaxx]

14 minutes ago, Excraft said:

This is what happens when you base your direction and design decisions around what a handful of people ask for

I hope the irony of this statement isn't lost on you.

 

---

 

With that out of the way, I'm glad Vet Levels are returning for those who partake in "extensive use" of the AE. My concern is now, of course, that Emp Merits will become a useless currency after a certain point. I'm never a fan of games with 15 different currencies that all produce nothing (but continue to drop) after you've worked through whatever system they were built for. That's just UI bloat, currency bloat, and it can be a huge problem down the line. Destiny 2, a game notorious for many things, is also notorious for its currency bloat. Every event, every Season, every little thing seems to have its own unique currency specifically to prevent players who have been around a long time from "getting rewards" without doing the associated content.

 

There has to be a better way at handling this without creating new currencies and deprecating old currencies that only serves to punish long-time players. I'm more of a fan of "required quest/mission completion" as a gate than new currencies. Like how Patron Pools are locked behind a badge, would it be possible to create a unique vendor that won't talk to you unless you have a badge (or even a series of badges/Accolade) that could take excess Emp Merits and trade them for random rolls on a loot table?

[Oklahoman]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Those Incarnate Trial Reward Merits are subject to the standard 18 hour cooldown on the same character and are priced at the exact numbers you'd have gotten if you converted all the Empyrean/Astrals you earned from a fresh run into Reward Merits.

 

Not a complaint here, just an observation. I think almost all of the iTrials listed can technically be done in a single run to get the Master of... badge, though you may not want to try that with Magisterium. (Came darned close one time, tho.) Lambda requires at least 3 successful runs to get Master - there's just no way around that. Same with Minds of Mayhem, where people end up just farming that after the first completion, instead of completing the trial each additional time.

 

Overall, I think this change would encourage the "iTrial train" model of leaders not running BAF on repeat (for instance), which I think is good. But it creates an annoyance for Lambda where a player is incentivized to use Character A on the Antacid run, Character B on the Well Stocked Run, and Character C for the Looter and Synchronized run - then rotate all those the next day to eventually get Master on all 3 characters several days later.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

There has to be a better way at handling this without creating new currencies and deprecating old currencies that only serves to punish long-time players. I'm more of a fan of "required quest/mission completion" as a gate than new currencies. Like how Patron Pools are locked behind a badge, would it be possible to create a unique vendor that won't talk to you unless you have a badge (or even a series of badges/Accolade) that could take excess Emp Merits and trade them for random rolls on a loot table?

 

Emps are tradeable so you'd only need one character with the accolade and we're back to square one.

 

Honestly, I think we should go back to what emps were created for: Incarnate powers.  Expand the existing abilities and build new ones.  Which, I think, is on the roadmap a way down the line?

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Emps are tradeable so you'd only need one character with the accolade and we're back to square one

I don't see this as a problem. Sending all your excess Emps to an alt for trade-ins on a loot table is the same as getting that badge on every character. People already farm these Emp Merits for their alts' use in building up their Incarnate powers so it's really no different. I'm not trying to find a non-solution, but rather, one that provides an outlet for a currency that becomes dead after a certain point. I personally think the Incarnate system itself is a mistake, and many of the powers available through it never went through proper testing and tuning, but that ship sailed forever ago.

 

My contention is that, eventually, under this current build, you end up with Emp Merits that do nothing and I don't like currencies that continue to accumulate that do nothing. Rolls on a loot table can be whatever the devs want it to be. Sure, it will probably result in less influence towards the character than going Emp > Merits > Converters > Influence does now, but it's something. This is also a solution, if not an ideal one, for people who would use the Emp > Merits > Direct IO Purchase route but then, that route was never ideal to begin with. In both cases, you still get something for Emp Merits where the proposed beta changes do nothing but let them build up.

[brattycommissar2]

honestly if we need more things out of emp merits because of this, i would gladly trade like, 100+ emp merits for the ability to db edit even a SINGLE character costume file to give myself like, coralax parts that i use with other things... just saying

[CommisarCommunism]

Not a big fan of this change. I don't farm, I don't power level, but I do alt a lot of characters and typically stop advancing 50's once I have t3 incarnate gear. I convert all the excess astral & empyrean merits to purchase the most expensive IO's for my next alt. I feel like these changes are a good example of where finding a solution for edge cases (power leveling AE farmers) screws over a lot of other folks for no good reason.