The Pretty Good AE Debate

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, MoonSheep said:

 

think everyone is still waiting for you to show us the data mate

 

can you also provide stats on what percentage of the playerbase would leave if AE was removed and what price IOs would be? without evidence these are baseless claims and merely unproven hypothetical situations

 

 

No idea where you are getting any of this from to be honest nor how you derived any of that from my post you quoted. 

[MoonSheep]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

No idea where you are getting any of this from to be honest nor how you derived any of that from my post you quoted. 

 

you have no idea that you are taking part in a discussion about AE and the need to provide data?

[ShardWarrior]

8 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Feel free to add your own numbers.  I heard you like to test and be helpful.

 

P.S.  I've added numbers for an ITF and will continue to add stuff as I go along.

 

Sure.  I will be happy to help and embarrass you again.  Are we only testing influence gained per hour?  Or are other rewards acceptable to test since the claim seems to be that AE is the single best source for all rewards in the game?

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

you have no idea that you are taking part in a discussion about AE and the need to provide data?

 

Well no, I have no idea where you derived anything about players leaving or staying or prices of IOs in the market from the post of mine you quoted.  I am happy to help provide some data.  What are we measuring and what is the criteria for the measurement?  Can I run my fire farmer through a farm run and then run my EMP defender solo through some +4x8 Carnie Radios?  That should produce the same results I think.

[Neiska]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Sure.  I will be happy to help and embarrass you again.  Are we only testing influence gained per hour?  Or are other rewards acceptable to test since the claim seems to be that AE is the single best source for all rewards in the game?

 

I wouldn't bother with Moonsheep, Shardwarrior. I suspect he's just trolling at this point, as they only ask questions and never address counterpoints. That's not a discussion, that's just fishing for a reaction.

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Sure.  I will be happy to help and embarrass you again.  Are we only testing influence gained per hour?  Or are other rewards acceptable to test since the claim seems to be that AE is the single best source for all rewards in the game?

A) I happily await your results. 

B) I have no shame, therefore cannot be embarrassed.

C) Don't let my work dictate yours.  As long as you are consistent in your methodology and properly record and reveal your tests they can be benchmarks unto themselves . . . oh but wait, that would just be one data point, like polling one person . . . never mind, carry on.  FOR SCIENCE!!

[Ghost]

5 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Well no, I have no idea where you derived anything about players leaving or staying or prices of IOs in the market from the post of mine you quoted.  I am happy to help provide some data.  What are we measuring and what is the criteria for the measurement?  Can I run my fire farmer through a farm run and then run my EMP defender solo through some +4x8 Carnie Radios?  That should produce the same results I think.

Run your emp defender through a farm run, and then your farmer through a +4x8 Carnie radio

 

In all seriousness, Im confused now.   Are you saying running through a fire farm for a set time period (say 30 minutes) will yield the same xp/infl as running through missions for the same time period (30 minutes)?

 

      

 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Don't let my work dictate yours.  As long as you are consistent in your methodology and properly record and reveal your tests they can be benchmarks unto themselves . . . oh but wait, that would just be one data point, like polling one person . . . never mind, carry on.  FOR SCIENCE!!

 

This is why I am asking what the criteria is for testing.  This allows anyone to repeat the same tests and provide more data to review.  No one seems to want to answer the questions.  The claim is that AE is a one stop shop for everything.  It is the best place for rewards compared to any other part of the game.  That may very well be true.  All I am asking is using what criteria?  What rewards are being measured?  What ATs using what kind of builds are used for testing?  Which AE farm map?  What non-AE content?  There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.  I am sorry if I am not going to take the singular tests you ran as gospel.  I can run all kinds of tests that will produce different results more in line with non-AE content being far superior for rewards.  This is why I am suggesting there needs to be set criteria so results can be reproduced.

 

For my individual tests, I am using my fire farmer running the meteor map and my scrappers and brutes running radio missions in PI.  I will also use my blaster running through a series of back to back SBB runs and selling the IO set from there on the exchange.  I guess we are measuring influence gained only as the measure since that seems to be the only thing you were concerned with?  If not, let me know.

 

22 minutes ago, Ghost said:

In all seriousness, Im confused now.   Are you saying running through a fire farm for a set time period (say 30 minutes) will yield the same xp/infl as running through missions for the same time period (30 minutes)?

 

Are XP and/or influence the only rewards being measured?  There are multiple types of rewards in the game. 

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

 

 

Are XP and/or influence the only rewards being measured?  There are multiple types of rewards in the game. 

 

Thats what I was asking - which is why I said that I was confused

[Marbing]

@ZacKing and @Excraft thank you for all the downvotes. Your tears taste sooo good. 
 

 

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Sure.  I will be happy to help and embarrass you again. 

Getting a little tense for someone who hates drama and bullying.

 

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Can I run my fire farmer through a farm run and then run my EMP defender solo through some +4x8 Carnie Radios?  That should produce the same results I think.

I think this post tells everyone here exactly what we need to know.

 

6 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

think everyone is still waiting for you to show us the data mate

^This. Or stop whining.

 

I think that about sums up the latest round of forum PvP.

 

 

In all seriousness who wants to meet up with me tonight to run some actual data on this? I am seriously wanting to prove that no data will change anyones mind. 

 

We can run through ITF (or whatever)and time ourselves. Then run through a fire farm for the same amount of time. Maybe do this a couple of times, as a team. Then post the inf/min here including merits gained, etc. 

 

 

[ZacKing]

59 minutes ago, Marbing said:

@ZacKing and @Excraft thank you for all the downvotes. Your tears taste sooo good. 

 

Like I said in the other thread, you're welcome.  Post something worthwhile and I'll give it a thumbs up.  All you've been posting is pointless crap, so I call it like I see it.

 

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

I think this post tells everyone here exactly what we need to know.

 

Yeah it tells everyone you're biased.  You've seen one person post something and claiming it's gospel and absolute proof.  There's people who think Bigfoot is real too.  You can't compare oranges to apples that's why they're asking for testing criteria.  Seriously, what's the harm in answering the question?  What's the testing criteria?  "Use your own" doesn't work.  It's a perfect way to skew the results like @ForeverLaxx mentioned earlier.  People will just tailor the situation to come up with the results they want.  I can play the market and earn more in an hour than your fire farmer will in running meteor maps, so that means AE isn't the best source of inf. 

 

The people who don't want to share collection criteria are bullshitters and don't want their results questioned because they're afraid of people proving them wrong.  But whatever, you do you and keep right on bullshitting. 

 

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

^This. Or stop whining.

 

The only person I see whining here is you.  Just being honest.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Don't let my work dictate yours.  As long as you are consistent in your methodology and properly record and reveal your tests they can be benchmarks unto themselves

 

Right so anyone can do what they want and come up with whatever data they want.

[Ghost]

12 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I can play the market and earn more in an hour than your fire farmer will in running meteor maps, so that means AE isn't the best source of inf. 

 

 

Nope.  Wrong (as is usual with you) 

Show me a guarantee that whatever you list will immediately sell.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ghost

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Nope.  Wrong (as is usual with you) 

Show me a guarantee that whatever you list will immediately sell.

 

Doesn't have to sell immediately if we're going by inf per hour.  But whatever.  You're just as biased as everyone else so you keep doing you.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Nope.  Wrong. 

 

I'm attempting to get some specifics from a marketeering buddy of mine, but I seem to recall from prior discussions that his inf/hour gain completely trounced fire farming.

[Ghost]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm attempting to get some specifics from a marketeering buddy of mine, but I seem to recall from prior discussions that his inf/hour gain completely trounced fire farming.

 

It does make more.

However, playing the market relies on others.  If there are no others, there is no market.  So there is no guarantee like there is with farming.

 

 

[Ghost]

14 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Doesn't have to sell immediately if we're going by inf per hour.  But whatever.  You're just as biased as everyone else so you keep doing you.

So, tell me what my bias is.

Surely you've actually read the posts you've downvoted.  I know you couldn't possibly just be a troll.  I mean, you always add so much to the discussions around here.

So tell me what are my thoughts on farming influence.

[Ukase]

14 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

None of the HC Team have stated they want to eliminate farming, or eliminate AE.  They have made some adjustments in the past and have proposed making a change in the next update.  It's not the end of the world, or the end of farming, or the end of AE.  It's all going to be OK.

Doooooooom!!!!

In all seriousness, I do understand that neither are going anywhere. 
Most of my replies are to folks who, for reasons of their own, would like to see different things: 

1. AE rewards reduced to be more consistent with non-AE content. 
2. Elimination of fire farming altogether because they don't like it and consider it an exploit. 

I've got no beef with the Dev team  as things stand now. I do however get irritated by people who present these statements about the game's "economy" or the health of the game itself, as if they were some sort of subject matter expert on the topic when there's no evidence that they know what they're talking about. 

The HC Dev team is going to do what they're going to do, and they seem willing to listen, which is one part of what I require. The other part is the rationale behind certain decisions which impact some of my game play. It was like pulling teeth, but I finally got the second part. 

But some of these folks come up with their arguments in favor of their own preferred way to play, but take the position that my play is somehow unsavory and damaging to the health of the game - yet they can't present any evidence of this, nor refute logic when it's presented to them. They seem to think a player having a stack of influence is "inflationary", when there's no evidence to support this. Items on the AH are cheaper now than they have been since the game re-opened. Clearly, all the farming and marketing that's going on has been nothing but good for the game, if the price of IOs are any indication. (although they could be artificially suppressed due to lower demand)

Add to that, it's kind of fun to challenge folks with contrary opinions. I do my best to remain open-minded. Maybe I'll learn something. Stranger things have happened. 
But I will never take assertions by a poster in this forum as fact, unless I already believe it, or know it to be true. If it's not something I currently believe, then I'll challenge it. Isn't that what these forums are for? To share information, opinions, etc? 
 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ukase

[Grouchybeast]

12 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm attempting to get some specifics from a marketeering buddy of mine, but I seem to recall from prior discussions that his inf/hour gain completely trounced fire farming.

Inf/minute, minimally competent marketeering is absolutely the best way to get hold of inf..  The devs don't care, though, as the market is a deflationary force -- although they've certainly said they'd like to revamp the market to make it easier to use, which I guess should reduce inf/minute profitability if it worked out as intended.

[Ukase]

24 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Nope.  Wrong (as is usual with you) 

Show me a guarantee that whatever you list will immediately sell.

 

I can't show you a guarantee. But, I can anecdotally promise you, that if there are outstanding bids for the item, it will sell quickly, if not instantly. 
But, that depends on the item being listed and how much it's listed for.  If there's no demand for the item, that's what converters are for. 

I'm sure most of us have read posts from certain players who list everything for sale for 1 influence, and claim they get plenty of profit, all things considered. I'm sure my method of using converters gets me more profit, but I'm putting in more time in the process than these folks are. 

Nothing you don't already know, I'm sure. 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Ghost said:

It does make more.

However, playing the market relies on others.  If there are no others, there is no market.  So there is no guarantee like there is with farming.

 

Wasn't what was being discussed but I'll certainly agree to that. I don't marketeer only because I find it boring AF and I only farm these days to PL new alts. I know it's heresy in some circles but I only carry around 5 billion total inf and have reached an equilibrium between what I spend on new builds and give away vs what I make by playing what little I play these days.

[Marbing]

37 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Like I said in the other thread, you're welcome.  Post something worthwhile and I'll give it a thumbs up.  All you've been posting is pointless crap, so I call it like I see it.

Good for you! I am so proud of you! 🙂

 

 

38 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah it tells everyone you're biased. 

Biased about what? Id love to know where you think I stand on this! It would be so refreshing to hear the opinion of someone that has no bias in this whatsoever. 😂

 

40 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

The only person I see whining here is you.  Just being honest.

What did I whine about? I said thank you for the downvotes… gosh can’t you just accept my appreciation for you and your mighty downvote? 😂

 

 

Also, I asked if anyone wanted to run some data with me (so we can test it TOGETHER and make sure no one is attempting to skew the results by slow playing a farm or comparing the worst farm to the best non-AE content). Or one of any number of things that people can do to misrepresent data. But I’ve gotten no takers. Because, as I said, people keep asking for data but no amount of data is going to change anything. So asking for criteria is pointless because no one will trust the data that anyone from the other side produces anyways. This has happened over and over in these forums and has not changed. 

 

 

Also, as I have continually pointed out, these changes aren’t about making AE pointless for inf/xp. These changes were intended to keep AE from being a one stop shop for EVERYTHING (non-cosmetic) but somehow we keep getting back to this argument that it’s about inf/min or powerleveling or basically anything else. The changes were to move reward merits OUT of AE. Not to kill inf/xp farming.
 

But again, tell me how I am biased for pointing this out, even as I have said I don’t agree with the current change. I guess I shouldn’t expect anything more from a forum PvP. Shame on me! 😂 

 

 

 

 

[Ukase]

1 minute ago, Marbing said:

Also, I asked if anyone wanted to run some data with me (so we can test it TOGETHER and make sure no one is attempting to skew the results by slow playing a farm or comparing the worst farm to the best non-AE content).

I must have missed this in any earlier post. 

What would you like to test, where would you like to test it, and when would you like to test it? You can DM me. I'm busy for the next few hours, but after that, I can make some time, I think. Give me several time ranges over the week, happy to help!

[Neiska]

41 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm attempting to get some specifics from a marketeering buddy of mine, but I seem to recall from prior discussions that his inf/hour gain completely trounced fire farming.

 

This is kind of what I have been saying. The Market Players if we want to call them that completely lap anything that the AE farmers or the other mode players do, likely more than both of us put together. And not a peep or word about it. And they can do it on multiple characters at a time. Nothing is stopping someone from managing the separate auction houses of 10+ characters are more. I had an in-depth talk with a friend of mine to plays the market, and he said basically he can make what I make from an hour in farming in a minute if he wanted to. But no one talks about the invisible whales, and honestly I don't expect any change on that front.

[ZacKing]

12 minutes ago, Marbing said:

These changes were intended to keep AE from being a one stop shop for EVERYTHING (non-cosmetic) but somehow we keep getting back to this argument that it’s about inf/min or powerleveling or basically anything else. The changes were to move reward merits OUT of AE.

 

AE isn't a one stop shop for every reward and you can farm merits by doing speed runs faster than earning the emp merits from vet rewards.  You still aren't getting it. 

 

15 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Also, I asked if anyone wanted to run some data with me (so we can test it TOGETHER and make sure no one is attempting to skew the results by slow playing a farm or comparing the worst farm to the best non-AE content). Or one of any number of things that people can do to misrepresent data. But I’ve gotten no takers. Because, as I said, people keep asking for data but no amount of data is going to change anything.

 

I see so you asking for testing criteria to make sure the results are legit is perfectly fine.  It's only wrong/bad if someone else asks the same thing.  Give me a break.