The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Coyotedancer]

10 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

that is exactly what I am asking. There are a lot of big assumptions about farming that are taken at face value but should be questioned.

 

That's one of the reasons why I made that post a couple of days ago outlining what one of my "average" fire farm runs actually produces... People who don't farm, or who haven't done so since early in Homecoming's run, honestly wouldn't have a solid idea of what those numbers are. There definitely seem to be some pretty exaggerated assumptions out there. 

 

Talking to others, I'm apparently fairly typical for a run-of-the-mill, active-type fire farmer when it comes to map-clearing times and such, so my results ought to be solidly in the middle range. Some people will go slower and make less. Per Flea's post, some people are obviously faster and so can potentially make more... But odds are the majority are somewhere in the ballpark of my own totals.

[ZacKing]

43 minutes ago, Ghost said:

It does make more.

 

Right so AE isn't the best source for inf per hour.  Thanks for being honest. 

[blue4333]

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

This is kind of what I have been saying. The Market Players if we want to call them that completely lap anything that the AE farmers or the other mode players do, likely more than both of us put together.

 

The anti-AE crowd just wants to bash the AE for any reason available. 

 

Ultimately at the end of the day, this game is free 2 play and you don't put in any realworld investment into it. So why does it matter that people PL from 0 to 50, why does it matter that people can get Vet Levels in AE? It all boils down to "hEy ThAt'S nOt FaIr mY eMpAtHy HeAlEr CaNnOt FiReFaRm". They just want to make people play their way in the end. 

 

There's literally nothing stopping you to putting some time and inf aside to build yourself a farmer. I don't have one, my Fire/Fire/Mu blaster can AE Farm comfortably but I don't do it. Do I try to deny other people's fun? I don't think so.

 

The anti AE crowd flipflops on other issues anyways. They get to gatekeep on which aspects of the game are "the right way". TP base macro makes life too easy, but no complaints about /AH or how cheap Respecs are or free SG base building or free costume slots or auras/cape/costume unlocks. Not even that, they defend obvious outlier sets like Empathy, Forcefield and ATs in the name of nostalgia and "you don't know how to play". KB is always good according to them.

 

There's no winning this fight.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Right so AE isn't the best source for inf per hour.  Thanks for being honest. 

 

So what we're left with is AE is the best source of XP/hr. And to that I'm left asking, "So what?"

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So what we're left with is AE is the best source of XP/hr. And to that I'm left asking, "So what?"

 

I think you already know the answer.  It's wrongbad/evil/exploit and certain people don't like it, so it has to go. 

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

AE isn't a one stop shop for every reward and you can farm merits by doing speed runs faster than earning the emp merits from vet rewards.  You still aren't getting it. 

Things you can farm in AE:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Reward Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/shards

Things that will be farmable in AE after this change:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/Shards

 

You still aren’t getting it. The fact that you can get them OUTSIDE of AE faster is moot. Don’t care, never cared. They are simply trying to move them OUT of AE, because right now you can get everything you could want. (Non-Cosmetic). I couldn’t care less if you can get inf or merits faster somewhere else. It is beside the point. The point is, for reasons they have yet to publicly announce (that I have seen) they want to move Reward Merits out of AE. Also, if you are already getting them outside of AE faster then why are you whining about it? 
 

 

17 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I see so you asking for testing criteria to make sure the results are legit is perfectly fine.  It's only wrong/bad if someone else asks the same thing.  Give me a break. 

I never said asking for criteria is bad, I said it is pointless unless we can test it together (both sides). Because people are just going to doubt your results regardless of the testing criteria, which is why I asked for a testing buddy. So we can go through it together and post our results together. 

 

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So what we're left with is AE is the best source of XP/hr. And to that I'm left asking, "So what?"

 

Good question.

[blue4333]

1 minute ago, Marbing said:

Things you can farm in AE:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Reward Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/shards

Things that will be farmable in AE after this change:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/Shards

 

You still aren’t getting it. The fact that you can get them OUTSIDE of AE faster is moot. Don’t care, never cared. They are simply trying to move them OUT of AE, because right now you can get everything you could want. (Non-Cosmetic). I couldn’t care less if you can get inf or merits faster somewhere else. It is beside the point. The point is, for reasons they have yet to publicly announce (that I have seen) they want to move Reward Merits out of AE. Also, if you are already getting them outside of AE faster then why are you whining about it? 
 

 

I never said asking for criteria is bad, I said it is pointless unless we can test it together (both sides). Because people are just going to doubt your results regardless of the testing criteria, which is why I asked for a testing buddy. So we can go through it together and post our results together. 

 

 

I think it's better and far more transparent to just say you hate the AE. LOL

[Frostbiter]

1 minute ago, blue4333 said:

 

I think it's better and far more transparent to just say you hate the AE. LOL

 

I can personally attest that stating such a thing is not better for anyone.

[UltraAlt]

22 hours ago, Akisan said:

Farming isn't an unfortunate side effect of AE anymore

 

It is still an exploit.

Farms actively and loudly defend their exploitation.

It doesn't mean that it isn't exploiting the AE.

 

22 hours ago, Akisan said:

it's a tool to progress faster (like the 2x XP boosters

 

I'll add admit, that in most cases, I will load up on 8 hours of x2xp boosters when I first create a character.

If I'm not running with someone trying to level characters to keep up with each other (the level pact without the level pact mechanic) I don't use an more of them.

I don't use them because I want to avoid rushing past content that enjoy doing and actually being able to complete arcs without outleveling them. But sometimes even that doesn't happen because I like to play at least at +2 level.

 

22 hours ago, Akisan said:

They may stop farming AE, but that won't stop them from endlessly farming the Portal Corp missions,

 

A bunch of those missions were made timed missions to stop the grinding.

The DEVs need to take a deeper look into the missions that still need timers put onto them so they can't be farmed.

 

I was there when what seemed like 100s of warwolves herded into a shipping container to get nuked.

I've seen exploits. I know what they are.

I just have to shake my head, quit a team, and go back to actually playing the game.

 

I'm not going to say that I haven't been in some Trick or Treat door-knocking slaughter houses or Rikti invasion teams.

 

But all of the instances are different than creating enemies that are easy for your character to defeat intentionally to increase your rewards.

 

22 hours ago, Akisan said:

For what it's worth, I agree with you on the farming issue - AE farming (especially AFK farming) is an exploit in my eyes.

 

Thank you.

 

23 hours ago, Akisan said:

But I'm not the Fun Police, and it's not my place to dictate what others can, or should, do

 

But you should feel free to express your views.

I simply can't the fun that is generated by not playing a game and leaving a character automated to farm or simply to door sit afk. I guessing that the players are having fun doing something else or actually working while their characters robotically gain influence and xp.

 

23 hours ago, Akisan said:

I still hold the opinion that AE farms are disproportionally overtuned for reward/time vs. risk, and should be nerfed accordingly. 

 

Yep.

Pretty much my point.

 

Team power-leveling through sidekicking at various levels on the same team was removed because it was an exploit and that was built into the game from scratch.

I see no reason that this kind of equalizing path couldn't be done to Farming and doorsitting in the AE.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

 

I think it's better and far more transparent to just say you hate the AE. LOL

You can’t argue with anyone but a straw man can you. 

[Marbing]

12 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

 

I think it's better and far more transparent to just say you hate the AE. LOL

Actually, I love AE! I have my own farm I built and my own story arc! I host farming Fridays every Friday on Everlasting (previously Indom). Me and my friends use AE all the time for inf/xp! 🙂 I have even stated I am against this current change because I think it will have the opposite affect! Thank you for playing! 🙂  

Edited August 8, 2022 by Marbing
tYPinG iS HaarD

[blue4333]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

You can’t argue with anyone but a straw man can you. 

 

Oh don't mind me, I just like to make some noise for the non-forum viewing players who find AE and the current state of the game to be okay. Who knows, it might be a big number. You'll never know until  the patch drops and they are left wondering what happened.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by blue4333

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Things you can farm in AE:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Reward Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/shards

Things that will be farmable in AE after this change:

 

XP

INF

Emp Merits

Incarnate slots

Threads/Shards

 

You still aren’t getting it. The fact that you can get them OUTSIDE of AE faster is moot. Don’t care, never cared. They are simply trying to move them OUT of AE, because right now you can get everything you could want. (Non-Cosmetic). I couldn’t care less if you can get inf or merits faster somewhere else. It is beside the point. The point is, for reasons they have yet to publicly announce (that I have seen) they want to move Reward Merits out of AE. Also, if you are already getting them outside of AE faster then why are you whining about it? 

 

I understand what the change is supposed to be for, I don't buy the the reason for it.  Like @Bill Z Bubba asked above, so what?  I believe it's more being done to prevent less than a handful of people from farming vet levels and using the early EMP merit rewards to cash in.  It's probably what the goldfarmers are doing.  Now you'll be able to get all those things doing speed runs or farming iTrials, so why run any other content?  What about all the story content?  Should iTrials and speed TFs get nerfed now?  Don't worry, I already know the answer.  Those are righteous/good/right/correct/approved content.  You're not understanding this change isn't necessary because it's absolutely clear the vast majority of players aren't farming for everything in AE.  I can see that much with my own two eyes.  If you don't see that, you're blind of willfully ignorant.  The requests for TF/WST/DFB/SBB/SF/missions in LFG far outnumber the requests for farms by a vast majority so people are running non-AE content all the time for all kinds of stuff, so I know the "one stop shop" excuse is just bullshit. 

 

22 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I never said asking for criteria is bad, I said it is pointless unless we can test it together (both sides). Because people are just going to doubt your results regardless of the testing criteria, which is why I asked for a testing buddy. So we can go through it together and post our results together. 

 

You have to know what it is you're testing for.  What are you measuring and under what restrictions and assumptions?  What are you comparing?  One person posted they made a million inf an hour.  Ok great.  Someone else may make 10 million or 100k.  Is that the only thing being measured? 

[UltraAlt]

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

It's semantics, but AE is not an exploit. Is it being used the way Paragon Studios imagined it would be used? Yes, it is being used in the exact way they imagined it would be

 

Here you are wrong.

The game design was to use players to create game content on par with what was in the rest of the game to give players more game content to play because the DEVs couldn't keep up with the playerbase's appetite.

The DEVs didn't sit down and think. Gee, we should create a system so that it can be exploited for player's gain.

They caught it while it was happening on the test servers and went about finding ways to stop it and their solution was the ban hammer.

 

And, remember, when it comes down to NCSoft gold farming, they didn't even have to run missions to get influence. They could just create it out of thin air with no more than some god-mode clicks and then sell any amount of influence they wanted at competitive rates or below that of the gold farmers.

 

They DEVs didn't intentionally make a farming tool. The players made it that.

The missions -that historically were/are farmed - were not created to be farmed. Players decided to farm them because they were created in a way that could be exploited.

 

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

It really doesn't matter what Paragon Studio developers said, or were aiming for. They are not here. They no longer have skin in the game.

 

And how do you know that none of the DEVs from before the Sunset aren't DEVs here at Homecoming?

 

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

It hurts nobody. If anything, it helps the community by having more items in the AH for folks to buy.

 

I don't know how much farmers contribute to items on the market.

I know that they sure buy a lot of the goods that I generate.

1000's every week.

 

I simply don't think that doorsitting for leveling should mean that you don't have to login in order to keep your character name.

I think the rewards are too high for farming in the AE.

 

And, obviously, I think it drags characters past the low level content that enjoy playing and into the end-game that I don't enjoy.

So part of my stance is  - I'm too tired to think of the correct words at this point. I have to go to sleep - more than 50% of the characters on at any given time on every server are level 50's. 

I think that level 50's that play lower level content are detrimental to the lower level teams because they want to show off how cool they are.

It's just how I feel about. Farming/doorsitting allows it to happen.

But I can't keep my eyes open.

[UltraAlt]

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, I fixed that for you.

 

Good for you.

You quoted me and changed my quote to mislead other people in what I said.

You have earned a spot on my ignore list.

You have worked for it. Be proud of yourself. I'm sure you are.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

 

Oh don't mind me, I just like to make some noise for the non-forum viewing players who find AE and the current state of the game to be okay. Who knows, it might be a big number. You'll never know until  the patch drops and they are left wondering what happened.

 

Cool. I like AE too. Use it every day. Maybe there’s a way to vouch for it without blatantly lying about people since all that does is detract from your own credibility.

[blue4333]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Cool. I like AE too. Use it every day. Maybe there’s a way to vouch for it without blatantly lying about people since all that does is detract from your own credibility.

 

Hehe attack my credibility all you want honey. If my posts make an impact in this echo chamber, I'm happy. Besides what credibility, I'm just a random poster. I don't make random quirky threads to pander to other posters nor did I participate in SCORE.

 

But I'm just happy to help keep HC on track as a server built by volunteers for the community. 🤪

 

This AE thread is forcing a playstyle and I can't standby and not comment. Same shit with KB right, you don't want people to take that away from you?

Edited August 8, 2022 by blue4333

[blue4333]

To get back on track. Here's a forum thread I found with posts from 2010.

 

It states that prices were way more expensive for AH items. Take it with a pinch of salt but compared to 1 - 2 million per Orange Salvage and now in HC it's 500k per Orange Salvage, hardly any inflation there right?

 

2 Billion for a Gladiator's Armour +Def Unique?? Hell no; not on my broke a$$. Grateful for the hardworking farmers keeping supply up 🙂 

 

 

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/coh-v-inventions-you.542035/

 

 

Inflation who???

Edited August 8, 2022 by blue4333
typo

[Neiska]

"ThE dEvS.." "bUt ThE DeVs" "BuT MEH DEVS"

 

Well guess what buttercup. The Dev's aren't here. The Developers of Live have about as much authority and say in how Homecoming is run, as much as a one armed blind sailor in Tawanna, which is to say absolutely zip, zero, nadda, nothing whatsoever.

 

This is homecoming.

This isn't live.

This will never be live.

 

I can appreciate and even empathize of what Live was. Truly. But Homecoming is a different ship, with a different staff, with different rules, and different policies.

 

So please, stop with the holding aloft of the original Devs as if they were a holy grail that all should aspire to, because, they aren't.

 

Moreover, I find it quite illuminating on how the people who hold aloft Live and "The Devs" are pretty silent on many other matters. Including but are not limited to -

 

The Auction House being accessible from nearly anywhere.

Costume piece changes.

The addition of a new AT.

The addition of new powersets.

The changing of old powersets.

Multiple changes in class mechanics.

Changes in PVP.

Changes in Enhancement Sets.

 

And much more. And not so much as a peep about "THE DEVS" or "But back on Live!"

 

The fact the "Dev puritans" are completely and pretty silent on such things tells me that they care more about what other people are doing, and how they play, than they truly do about staying "true" to live.

 

So please, do everyone a favor and take off the nostalgia goggles. You liked Live. I get it. Many people did. But this isn't Live. It is no more. And even every single change was made to make Homecoming as much as it was in Live, it STILL wouldn't be Live.

 

Food for thought.

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, Neiska said:

So please, do everyone a favor and take off the nostalgia goggles. You liked Live. I get it. Many people did. But this isn't Live. It is no more. And even every single change was made to make Homecoming as much as it was in Live, it STILL wouldn't be Live.

 

Anyone looking for the "more like live" experience should checkout Rebirth server.  It's the slow levelers paradise over there.

[ShardWarrior]

42 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

The requests for TF/WST/DFB/SBB/SF/missions in LFG far outnumber the requests for farms by a vast majority so people are running non-AE content all the time for all kinds of stuff, so I know the "one stop shop" excuse is just bullshit. 

 

I see the same thing on Excelsior and Torchbearer.  This patch is a solution looking for a problem. 

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

27 players online. Woo! I've noted how that server has about 1/3-1/2 the population of Indomitable at any given time. Indom is currently at 70. 

 

I see quite a bit of Live nostalgia, but I don't see that translate to bodies in game. 

 

Some of us might take that as a sign that how things were done on Live might not be as wonderful and glorious as others might remember or try to make others believe. 😆

[blue4333]

Another source showing the crazy prices in Live. Should we perhaps drop the notion that the "crazy horde" of AE Farmers (AFK/ACtive) are driving the prices up?

 

https://samhaine.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/from-radioactive-to-riches-the-jenny-gamma-story-part-3/

 

Components	Number Purchased	Average Price Paid
Soul Trapped Gem	13	1,115,556
Spell Ink	55	25,819
Spirit Thorn	59	1,154
Synthetic Intelligence Unit	1	1,000,171
Temporal Analyzer	59	171
Temporal Tracer	21	1,266
Titanium Shard	6	726
Unquenchable Flame	9	12,838
Essence of the Furies	8	1,912,671

Recipes	Number Purchased	Average Price Paid
Recipe: Blessing of the Zephyr -KB L50	25	8,040,185
Recipe: Decimation Acc/Dam L40	1	3,000,010
Recipe: Decimation Acc/Dam/Rech L40	1	1,000,001
Recipe: Doctored Wounds End/Heal	3	100,171
Recipe: Doctored Wounds End/Heal L50	37	308,549
Recipe: Doctored Wounds End/Rech L50	16	113,296
Recipe: Efficacy Adaptor End Mod/Acc, L50	18	50,171
Recipe: Efficacy Adaptor Rech/Acc, L50	43	135,055
Recipe: Gift of the Ancients Defense L40	3	4,500,000
Recipe: Interrupt, L20	9	100
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler +Recharge L50	7	100,000,171
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler Def L50	3	30,000,000
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler Def/End/Rech L50	1	4,000,171
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler Def/Rech L50	1	400,171
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler End/Rech L50	4	78,921
Recipe: Luck of the Gambler: Def, L50	1	25,000,171
Recipe: Miracle End/Heal/Rech L40	3	100,171
Recipe: Numina’s Convalescence +Rech/Rec, L40	1	50,000,171
Recipe: Numina’s Convalescence End/Rech, L50	2	100
Recipe: Performance Shifter Chance L50	52	6,105,937
Recipe: Performance Shifter End Mod/Rech L50	3	1,500,171
Recipe: Positron’s Blast Acc/Dam L50	3	500,171
Recipe: Range, L20	30	150
Recipe: Range, L30	9	150
Recipe: Range, L35	15	150
Recipe: Red Fortune Def	3	300,171
Recipe: Red Fortune Def/End/Rech L50	12	333,504
Recipe: Red Fortune Def/Rech	3	100,000
Recipe: Sleep, L25	5	100
Recipe: Titanium Coating End	3	10,171
Recipe: Titanium Coating End/Rech	3	10,171
Recipe: Titanium Coating Rech/Res	3	50,000
Recipe: Touch of the Nictus Acc/End/Rech L50	9	10,000,171
Recipe: Touch of the Nictus Chance L50	1	100,171

 

Sold Item	Number Sold	Average Price Received	Profit
Blessing of the Zephyr -KB	25	26,990,667	93%
Decimation	2	5,000,000
Doctored Wounds	56	3,935,708	228%
Efficacy Adaptor (End Mod/Acc)	18	3,885,803	313%
Efficacy Adaptor (Rech/Acc)	37	3,853,454	272%
Gift of the Ancients Def	3	15,000,000
Kinetic Weapon	115	250	312%
LotG (Def/End/Rech)	1	15,000,000
LotG (Def/Rech)	1	7,000,000
Luck of the Gambler +Recharge	7	132,857,143	13%
Luck of the Gambler Def L50	4	42,527,778
Luck of the Gambler End/Rech	4	8,525,253
Magical Conspiracy	10	2,010,000
Miracle	3	11,000,000
Numina’s Convalescence End/Rech	2	4,950,000
Numina’s Convalescence Healing	1	30,000,000
Numina’s Convalescence Reg/Rec	1	121,000,000
Performance Shifter Chance	52	17,963,462	83%
Performance Shifter End Mod	2	10,000,000
Performance Shifter End Mod	2	10,000,000
Performance Shifter End Mod/Rech	3	15,000,000
Photonic Weapon	28	2,010,714
Platinum	10	2,000,000
Positronic Matrix	98	1,998,529	67%
Positron’s Blast Acc/Dam	3	8,000,000
Prophecy	10	2,000,000
Red Fortune	7	4,000,000
Red Fortune Def/End/Rech L50	10	3,060,004
Red Fortune Def/Rech	1	3,000,000
Smashing Haymaker	2	3,350,555
Titanium Coating End	3	3,666,667
Titanium Coating End/Rech	3	5,000,000
Titanium Coating Res/Rech	3	4,296,296
Titanium Coating, Res L50	8	5,387,500
Touch of the Nictus Acc/End/Rech	9	27,444,444	83%
Touch of the Nictus Chance L50	1	5,000,000

 

[Astralock]

4 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Moreover, I find it quite illuminating on how the people who hold aloft Live and "The Devs" are pretty silent on many other matters. Including but are not limited to -

 

The Auction House being accessible from nearly anywhere.

Costume piece changes.

The addition of a new AT.

The addition of new powersets.

The changing of old powersets.

Multiple changes in class mechanics.

Changes in PVP.

Changes in Enhancement Sets.

 

And much more. And not so much as a peep about "THE DEVS" or "But back on Live!"

 

• If it were up to me, I would limit the /ah command to developers and GMs only.
• Certain costume pieces should have remained locked in order to incentivize running related content.
• The Sentinel AT was a mistake. Honestly, it should be deleted from the game and give all Sentinels a token to choose Blaster, Scrapper, or Stalker instead.
•  I am fine with the new Power sets.  Why my phone capitalized Power, I have no idea.  One of the new Power sets is one of my favorites.
• Certain old Power sets really need to be changed.  Titan Weapon was overpowered.  Trick Arrow and Energy Melee needed buffs.
• Tankers were overbuffed, however.
• I don’t care about PvP.  Only forum PvP matters.
• Most enhancement set changes were done by Paragon Studios in the Issue 24 beta.  Now as for the additions, meh.

I would also personally remove the Long Range Teleporter, Mission Transporter, Supergroup Base Portal, and Team Transporter.  They make travel powers superfluous and you are expected to have and use them by teammates.