Hard Mode Content Participation Poll

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

I think that creates it’s own problems. If folks never feel they can PUG it, how can the content get more facetime? I did try pugging it and it was rough, but I hope folks dont just scuttle away into their own little community. 
 

Instead I propose this: Folks who know should try and help players through it so we get a wider pool to play with, instead of just chalking it up to a lost cause. 
 

But because I know folks won’t do this, I’ll instead try to. On Fridays post page 4 launch, I will be running relentless runs of Aeon and ITF( not on the same day I’m not insane and sure as hell dont have time for that :P)

 

The kicker? It’ll be PUGed. I want 2-3 silent helpers to see things along/make sure the newer folks get THROUGH the run, and the rest will be off of LFG. I think this would circulate more folks through HM because:

 

1.) It’s on a day I figure more folks will have time. I’m hoping to run it in the late ish afternoons to allow more folks to get in on it!

 

2.) It shows the newer folks that yes this content CAN be done by you, and yes there ARE teams patient enough to help you through it.

 

I hope some folks here will join me in this effort! 
 

 

 

 

significantly up the rewards for hard mode content - make it worth the effort, the time. people will invest in characters that support hard mode content 

 

i like the challenge however i recognise others are more reward driven, if running content on relentless is extremely fruitful people will flock to it more readily.. off to post in the beta forum

[Mezmera]

58 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Instead I propose this: Folks who know should try and help players through it so we get a wider pool to play with, instead of just chalking it up to a lost cause. 
 

But because I know folks won’t do this, I’ll instead try to. On Fridays post page 4 launch, I will be running relentless runs of Aeon and ITF( not on the same day I’m not insane and sure as hell dont have time for that :P)

 

This is what I did lots on Excelsior back in the first months this was active, less so lately due to some burnout/anticipation of new stuff.  Don't go stereotyping people just because this might not have been your cup of tea originally and didn't notice people posting in LFG on Excelsior.  

 

When I was frequently making these teams if I was making specific Relentless runs to start I'd ask in a few highly populated chat channels first since I know most of those people have very capable characters to bring, usually I'll get 5 or so of us from these channels and then if its taking too long to organize I will open the floor to fill in the rest of the team from LFG which usually goes well enough.  The players I get from LFG have either never run it or ran it only once and had a bad experience which I'll reassure them they have an experienced team this time.  

 

There's only been one time organizing one of these myself that we didn't complete it nor did I want to and that is due in part to the quality of player you're rolling the dice on getting from the LFG channel as opposed to mostly people you are familiar with.  One Debbie Downer can ruin the whole mood of the team, even when the run is going well, just because they can't pay attention to chat and keep getting insta-killed by the explosion and for some reason wants to perpetuate some bad mojo for the rest of the team to enjoy.  

 

So it IS a double edged sword organizing most of the team strictly through LFG rather than specific chat channels, at least the Debbie Downers you'll get from the chat channels you will know and can give them snark if they try to ruin the mood of the rest of the team.  

[Mezmera]

19 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

significantly up the rewards for hard mode content - make it worth the effort, the time. people will invest in characters that support hard mode content 

 

i like the challenge however i recognise others are more reward driven, if running content on relentless is extremely fruitful people will flock to it more readily.. off to post in the beta forum

 

Overall yeah this.  The effort it takes to organize one of these should be recognized regardless if its an 8 player ready made team or something that takes 30 mins of broadcasting for.  

 

It's why Apex/Tin Mage is so well received, not a huge time commitment with great rewards so it's always easy to get a quick team built even if broadcasting solely through LFG.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by Mezmera

[Seed22]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

This is what I did lots on Excelsior back in the first months this was active, less so lately due to some burnout/anticipation of new stuff.  Don't go stereotyping people just because this might not have been your cup of tea originally and didn't notice people posting in LFG on Excelsior.  

 

When I was frequently making these teams if I was making specific Relentless runs to start I'd ask in a few highly populated chat channels first since I know most of those people have very capable characters to bring, usually I'll get 5 or so of us from these channels and then if its taking too long to organize I will open the floor to fill in the rest of the team from LFG which usually goes well enough.  The players I get from LFG have either never run it or ran it only once and had a bad experience which I'll reassure them they have an experienced team this time.  

 

There's only been one time organizing one of these myself that we didn't complete it nor did I want to and that is due in part to the quality of player you're rolling the dice on getting from the LFG channel as opposed to mostly people you are familiar with.  One Debbie Downer can ruin the whole mood of the team, even when the run is going well, just because they can't pay attention to chat and keep getting insta-killed by the explosion and for some reason wants to perpetuate some bad mojo for the rest of the team to enjoy.  

 

So it IS a double edged sword organizing most of the team strictly through LFG rather than specific chat channels, at least the Debbie Downers you'll get from the chat channels you will know and can give them snark if they try to ruin the mood of the rest of the team.  

…I never played on Excelsior for long, so I never saw those LFG post. Also, I mean, the rest of my post indicates I’ll be running more of the content myself, so I do enjoy the content 😄

 

I completely understand this take though. My run when I organized one had a few downers in it, so I sympathize with you on that. My apologies! Didn’t mean to come off as hostile

 

 

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

…I never played on Excelsior for long, so I never saw those LFG post. Also, I mean, the rest of my post indicates I’ll be running more of the content myself, so I do enjoy the content 😄

 

I completely understand this take though. My run when I organized one had a few downers in it, so I sympathize with you on that. My apologies! Didn’t mean to come off as hostile

 

 

 

Oh no worries.  Between the long wait on a new update and finding other things to do I don't find myself on as much except on the weekend. 

 

It just takes a few people to get the ball rolling and taking over once it becomes more commonplace to want to do so.  At first most itrials that were run were just a BAF now you have experienced leaders running all kinds of itrials.  

[Techwright]

Would there be a short Hard Mode to recommend?  Something that takes, say 30 minutes or less in standard play?  If so, that might be a way to encourage those of us on limited time to try it out.  For me, at least, if it finishes within 1.5 hours tops, I'd consider it. If shorter, even better.  There's still my previously-made second point to contend with, having a mighty build, but it would be a starting point at least.

[Seed22]

46 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Would there be a short Hard Mode to recommend?  Something that takes, say 30 minutes or less in standard play?  If so, that might be a way to encourage those of us on limited time to try it out.  For me, at least, if it finishes within 1.5 hours tops, I'd consider it. If shorter, even better.  There's still my previously-made second point to contend with, having a mighty build, but it would be a starting point at least.

That'd probably be HM 1

[Ironblade]

10 hours ago, Top Gear said:

Only 74 poll votes since Monday should tell you all you need to know about the reality of interest in hard mode conversations and play.

To be fair, people have actually studied this and estimate that between 5 and 10% of a games players actually visit the forums.

It might be a little higher here, since you are compelled to create a forum account in order to create your game account.

[Ukase]

There seems to me to be a lot of variables at play for hard mode participation and success. 
First - the time commitment. I know with someone like Mez that it's not likely going to take as long as it otherwise might with someone else at the star - like me. I like things fast, but I'm a bit retarded in my play ability, because I refuse to use the mouse for movement, nor will I use WASD, because ...reasons that make sense to me only, I think. 

I've only done the Hard Mode ITF twice. Once was successful, the second time wasn't. (tho on the test server, you really can't fail because you can auto-complete.) 
Thing is, while it is challenging, most people will not do this because it's too long, even if you know what you're doing. I was coached along the way by Stitch and other TFJers, (task force junkies, a public chat channel) and we made pretty good time, all things considered. Even at 45 minutes with 7 other very competent players, that stretches my interest to just about the cap. I don't like sitting down for that long at one setting. I prefer a smaller block of time, and I know I'm not alone with that thinking. The second run was with the Cosmic Council SG, which is basically a PUG, because they take anyone as a member, but the use of discord eliminates a lot of the "ignorance" factor, because the lead is explaining things to folks as we go through. It was more casual, run more to explain things and let folks explore the TF, not really worried about the end result. Still, two hours, over 100 defeats...both attempts were on the max difficulty. Further, on Test, you can tell everyone to slot for the radial barrier. I know on Excelsior, only my badge characters likely have enough materials to do that, as most go Barrier Core, if they go Barrier. 

With a PUG? I'll never run this on a pug (unless I have visual proof that it's Kathy Ireland or Heather Locklear that's asking) because I don't want to take two hours to do anything in this game. I might do it for a Transcendent merit, but probably not even then. The content isn't fun enough to suffer through repetitive team wipes, in my opinion. 

Second, player competence. Most of my characters can handle most things. But in these hard mode situations, when the tank goes down, my blaster will usually go down fairly soon after. Having to retoggle is so annoying that just getting defeated sucks the fun right out for me. And if it's one of those situations where a few players get clobbered, and hosp it, leaving the rest to try and handle what the 8 of us were struggling with...it's just not a good time. Granted, figuring out how to prevent those things from happening is a fun part of the game - but when you've got it figured out, but some of your teammates don't, and the lead has explained it, but they don't grasp it, or simply lack the finger speed on the keyboard...what would have otherwise been successful can turn into failure. It only takes a couple of weaker teammates to ruin the experience, despite their best efforts. And everyone is supposed to just be cheery and say, "well, we tried. That's all we can ask."  This is what giving everyone a trophy gets you. Instead of competence, it's about participation. 

 

Third, Team composition. When you try to tackle both robots, the game doesn't really let you split them apart for very long, if you can get them separated at all. So, having two methods of aggro management is fairly important. A high DPS, with high buff/debuff might be able to get away with one, but it's going to take some special folks to see that through, in my opinion. I saw this kind of thing after Aeon was introduced. You'd have all the badgers come out, and it would be something crazy like 5 tanks, a controller, a blaster and a corruptor. Not the ideal team comp. So, there's usually 2-3 folks willing to switch, but when it's potentially a 2 hour commitment, fewer folks are going to be willing to switch. Why the people wanted all the ATs to matter in content, I'll never know. Requiring a preferred team composition for success is just a hassle, slows things down.

 

Fortunately, it's only for the few challenging missions in the game. I will do the new content for the badges, but after that...probably never again. I mean, why? The rewards are meaningless. My character could be dressed like one of the default phantom army, once you start playing your character, it's not like you can see any costumes. But I'm very sure I'm in the minority in that regard. Some of you would rather put on a costume than get xp. And that's probably for the best. It takes all kinds of people to keep a world running. 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, Ironblade said:

To be fair, people have actually studied this and estimate that between 5 and 10% of a games players actually visit the forums.

It might be a little higher here, since you are compelled to create a forum account in order to create your game account.

 

While true, I can confidently say that during the times I am online, I never see any hardmode TFs being advertised.  Not in LFG and in none of the teaming channels I belong to. 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

(unless I have visual proof that it's Kathy Ireland or Heather Locklear that's asking)

 

Hey Ukase, want to play with us?

 

[Marbing]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

While true, I can confidently say that during the times I am online, I never see any hardmode TFs being advertised.  Not in LFG and in none of the teaming channels I belong to. 

I wouldn't recommend PUGing ATF on the harder settings. Not that it’s impossible, just you aren’t always getting what you may need and communication is harder on PUGs. Usually when I run it it’s with a pre planned team. So you won’t see LFG chat from me about it, FWIW.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Marbing
Edited for clarity.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

You shouldn’t be PUGing ATF on the harder settings. Not that it’s impossible, just you aren’t always getting what you may need and communication is harder on PUGs. Usually when I run it it’s with a pre planned team. So you won’t see LFG chat from me about it, FWIW.

 

That's great you don't want to PUG a TF on hard mode.  Doesn't in any way mean everyone else is the same and won't advertise to fill a spot or two if they want to in LFG.  But you don't ever see it.  Fact of the matter is, I don't see hard mode TFs advertised at all on any of the channels.  "Hard" mode ASF was run in the first few days to get badges, then never again from what I can see.  The novelty wore off, at least for the people in the channels I belong to.  I see speed ITF/MLTF/YIN/LRSF advertised multiple times daily though. 

[Marbing]

7 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

That's great you don't want to PUG a TF on hard mode.  Doesn't in any way mean everyone else is the same and won't advertise to fill a spot or two if they want to in LFG.  But you don't ever see it.  Fact of the matter is, I don't see hard mode TFs advertised at all on any of the channels.  "Hard" mode ASF was run in the first few days to get badges, then never again from what I can see.  The novelty wore off, at least for the people in the channels I belong to.  I see speed ITF/MLTF/YIN/LRSF advertised multiple times daily though. 

That's great that you don't see hard mode TF's advertised. Doesn't in any way change what I said. I couldn't care less if they are advertised. The ones I have participated in though weren't. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Marbing

[Excraft]

3 minutes ago, Marbing said:

That's great that you don't see hard mode TF's advertised. Doesn't in any way change what I said. I couldn't care less if they are advertised. The ones I have participated in though weren't. 

 

Neither were the runs I was on.  We formed from within our private channels when it first hit to get badges, then never again.  If they're not being advertised on public or private channels that I can see, that tells me there's no interest in it.  And if there's no interest in it in public channels, then who was all of that work done for?  Surely it wasn't done for the few who cried for it....

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Neither were the runs I was on.  We formed from within our private channels when it first hit to get badges, then never again.  If they're not being advertised on public or private channels that I can see, that tells me there's no interest in it.  And if there's no interest in it in public channels, then who was all of that work done for?  Surely it wasn't done for the few who cried for it....

I don't know about anyone crying for it... I know some people asked for harder stuff to do. 

And of course it is run less than the TF's you mentioned, the rewards aren't the same. Just more evidence people do stuff for rewards (despite the numerous claims otherwise), what's your point? Do you not want it in the game? Do you think it was a waste of time? 

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Hey Ukase, want to play with us?

Yes, yes I do! 

[Excraft]

14 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I don't know about anyone crying for it... I know some people asked for harder stuff to do. 

 

Yes a very, very small group of people cried for harder content on the forums. 

 

15 minutes ago, Marbing said:

And of course it is run less than the TF's you mentioned, the rewards aren't the same. Just more evidence people do stuff for rewards (despite the numerous claims otherwise), what's your point? Do you not want it in the game? Do you think it was a waste of time? 

 

It is run less as in I never see it advertised anywhere, so that's very telling.  The rewards for it suck or people can't devote the time for it or they just don't like the harder content.  If one or all of those are the case, which looks highly likely, then yeah in my opinion it was a complete waste of time.  I don't care if they want to continue making hard mode stuff for the 3 or 4 people here who want to run it.  More power to them.  It certainly isn't doing anything to attract any new players from what I can see.

[Mezmera]

29 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Yes a very, very small group of people cried for harder content on the forums. 

 

Uh the Going Rogue expansion was supposed to be the addition of harder endgame things to do now that you had a crazy decked out incarnated character.  Some people like 100's of alts and some like a good workout on their favorite characters.  New content is new stuff everyone can enjoy no matter if you want to categorize it as "endgame" or not.  

 

If the game stayed stagnant where it was all you'll have is an eventual withering away of people tired of the same mundane content you can only run so much before you venture off to other activities.   

 

The vast majority of content is lower level not all too hard to accomplish plug and play entertainment.  A lot of us have supported the game through Going Rogue which is yet a 3rd tutorial zone all in the hopes of getting some extra things to do at the end of your favorite characters life, all for one and one for all kinda jazz.  To say that it's a "very small group" of people that wanted harder endgame content is insulting, we've just kept quiet while the rest get their 100th power selection they can run through the 1000th Council Radio.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mezmera

[arcane]

34 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Yes a very, very small group of people cried for harder content on the forums. 

 

 

It is run less as in I never see it advertised anywhere, so that's very telling.  The rewards for it suck or people can't devote the time for it or they just don't like the harder content.  If one or all of those are the case, which looks highly likely, then yeah in my opinion it was a complete waste of time.  I don't care if they want to continue making hard mode stuff for the 3 or 4 people here who want to run it.  More power to them.  It certainly isn't doing anything to attract any new players from what I can see.

Extreme hyperbole like this is useful to no one here

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

If the game stayed stagnant where it was all you'll have is an eventual withering away of people tired of the same mundane content you can only run so much before you venture off to other activities.   

 

To be honest, I do not see hard mode content solving this problem.  At the core, it is still the same mundane content, just dialed up a few notches in an attempt to artificially create "challenge" when "tedium" is probably a better descriptor for it.  At least to me, the higher difficult is not harder, just more tedious and thereby boring.  I have to agree adding higher challenge options does not appear to have done anything to bring in new players, nor from what I can see brought back any existing players who have since left.  That is not to say that there are not those who enjoy it, I just do not see them being anywhere near the "silent majority" as I too never see this advertised anywhere, and I belong to quite a lot of the public and private team forming channels. 

[Ruin Mage]

It's harder content in the sense that it requires actual team work and actual builds (read: you can get through the lower 2 stars with sub-optimal teams, it may just tickle) as you go up. There's an introduction of new powers into mobs on both new TFs, new fights, and an Incarnate-level approach to stats. Is it tedious? Sure, 3/4 star can be tedious. It is optional content that's not for everyone. I think that can go forgotten. It's not a "this is the only option of content.", but rather something on top of what is already there. It's also a scaling thing so that if you want to experience a touch of the new mechanics/abilities/etc? 1-2 star. Want to gather a team that's pretty optimal? 3 star? Got a great time with IOs, Incarnates, and 1-3 hours to spare? 4 star.

4-Star ASF when it initially came out was 3-4 hours. Why? Entirely new SF, Hard Mode was new, and people weren't used to an actual challenge at the time. The optional Vanguard fight was a great test for a team. Then a team managed to 4-man it. Things change as you do more of it. The big difference with the next TF is that it's an old TF. Everyone knows the ITF maps, and those who have done the x-Star ASF know to expect new abilities/higher stats. The AV fights are going to be lengthy, but then people will figure out strategies to cut down the time. Don't have the time? A regular ITF is still there for you and unaffected.

In terms of bringing in new people / bringing people back, it's not going to make waves. Nothing can do that with a 100% certainty because some people are just too busy or get burnt out. Yes, there's other options too and those are just as valid. However, no one should be trying to use HM stuff as 'its bringing people in'. There's other avenues to the whole "get new people"/"bring people back" stuff, but I don't think the intent was to do either on a grand scale. There's going to be better stuff for that I imagine as the Pages go on.


 

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have to agree adding higher challenge options does not appear to have done anything to bring in new players, nor from what I can see brought back any existing players who have since left.  That is not to say that there are not those who enjoy it, I just do not see them being anywhere near the "silent majority" as I too never see this advertised anywhere, and I belong to quite a lot of the public and private team forming channels. 

 

Well this is a player run game which after its return the novelty and nostalgia wore off long ago, you're not going to go picking up tons of new players like a new age game would.  They don't have the resources to add oodles of content constantly like a studio would be capable of.  But that they do have the ability and wherewithal to craft new content like what they are doing will help to sustain this.  Heck most any returning players don't even know about the Aeon TF.  

 

The new harder content is much less mundane than a 10 minute LRSF which that last fight used to cause people to pause and wait for the team which is now what teams do on Relentless runs.  The biggest problem is there's no unique or special rewards you can't gain by just running other much faster tfs, aside from the D-Sync and still you can get that from the minimum runs.  

 

It has been almost a year since the last update so when the novelty wore off the most glaring thing that stands out is the reward structure is lacking.  There's little incentive for anyone to come out of their shell which is sad because this is quality stuff they're giving us.  

[Excraft]

14 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

It's harder content in the sense that it requires actual team work and actual builds (read: you can get through the lower 2 stars with sub-optimal teams, it may just tickle) as you go up.

 

You don't need super pimped out builds for the higher level difficulty.

 

15 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Is it tedious? Sure, 3/4 star can be tedious. It is optional content that's not for everyone. I think that can go forgotten.

 

Yes, it's tedious.  And I don't think anyone suggested it isn't optional.

 

15 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

In terms of bringing in new people / bringing people back, it's not going to make waves. Nothing can do that with a 100% certainty because some people are just too busy or get burnt out.

 

Making even more tedious content is never going to bring back anyone who got burned out for sure.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

It is run less as in I never see it advertised anywhere, so that's very telling.  The rewards for it suck or people can't devote the time for it or they just don't like the harder content.  If one or all of those are the case, which looks highly likely, then yeah in my opinion it was a complete waste of time.  I don't care if they want to continue making hard mode stuff for the 3 or 4 people here who want to run it.  More power to them.  It certainly isn't doing anything to attract any new players from what I can see.

Not sure the intent is to attract new people, or just to give the people that currently play more stuff to do with their decked out toons. You don't have to like it or play it, that's a you thing. There have been numerous posts on these forums from several people that have asked for harder stuff to do, I didn't see anyone crying for it. Different points of view, I guess what is a request for one person is a cry for another. I suppose it depends on whether you wanted the content or not? And, yes the rewards aren't worth the time investment. But, this suggests that if the rewards were worth the time investment more people would do it. So it isn't the content so much as it is the rewards? I feel like this argument has been made before, though.