Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[The_Warpact]

First, spoiler alert this is my opinion based on what I see and/or hear. Agree or disagree it makes no difference to me.

 

A common mistake I see, maybe others do as well are the mistakes Live devs created that continue into the future. Which I think has led to our current dilemma(s).

 

Namely "Going Rogue" and "Incarnates", there should have never been the ability to go back and forth for the ATs, this has created issues between the melee classes because of how close they are. Where do the different ATs fit in? Currently Tanks are the meta, scrappers and stalkers are close with only differences in stealth and crits really defining them, and brutes well they are lost in all this.

 

At least with the other classes, the exceptions being Veats/HEATS, they are opposites, Controllers are control plus buffs/debuffs, dominator are control and damage. Same can be said of corrs/fenders, and sentinel are just the red headed step children of blasters. Yes, yes, I know some of you like your sents but seriously they need some love.

Masterminds...well we are going to get to them.

 

Incarnates, you see every comic book, DragonBall, and the TV show like Supernatural always think you have to go bigger and badder with things. While this might appeal to some, in this case it was a mistake and continues to be so. This whole route has just led to a host of issues in the balance department and I'm sure in game development. Hard mode created for the specific involvement of incarnate abilities is just a way to compensate for the stuff that the live devs unloaded.

If you hadn't noticed the live devs made alot of bad decisions on game development and its future or lack thereof in their case. Which in turn has forced players regardless of AT although some more than others (namely Mastermind) to jump through hoops, become unplayable, or use a blend of ATs to create the ability to win this new hard mode.

 

Minus, the content, stories are great, ASF is one of my favorites, the new Halloween stuff, IO sets, etc all great stuff and I enjoy it.

But, this continuing path of forcing players to use incarnates abilities to win is just garbage. 

It's the main reason I quit the first time.

 

The focus is lost on great game play and teams when steamrolling, leagues, and making sure team composition is specific classes and everyone has to have incarnate abilities to succeed. It's not fun.

 

This is where the current devs are, I think the mistakes of the live devs have forced HC devs down a path that is just getting worse.

I think the live devs instead of doing Going Rogue at least the going back and forth part should have been dumped and the focus should have been on co-op zones, fixing current issues, and grinding out better content aka missions, TFs/SFs, etc. This in turn would have canceled the incarnate grind and put the focus on good challenging content with new items, costumes, IOs, and quite possibly powersets and ATs.

 

Goldside is a ghost town, redside is hardly better namely because the ATs don't have to stay where they should be at.

 

I have no easy answer on how to proceed, but, when I see the people way back then who I learned from and looked to for advice no longer playing or scaling it back so much that they only play for special events. Then I know something is seriously wrong.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

[Ukase]

I can't speak for these people you've looked to for advice that are no longer playing or scaling back, but often this has little or nothing to do with the game. Most of us are older, with families and responsibilities. This is still a game, and as time goes by, I know I recognize that I cannot get that time back. The only instance where I've ever been able to accumulate time was in prison. 
That's why it's more precious than money. I can save money for future use. I can be efficient, but still - the minutes or hours I save with this efficiency cannot be stuffed in my pocket and pulled out when I'm behind schedule later on. Time spent is gone forever. 

So, it's probably a good thing folks scale back or stop playing. Presumably, they're getting things done in real life, which actually matters far more. 

That aside, I can see your perspective. And you're entitled to feel the way you do. And nothing wrong with your opinion. I don't agree 100%. I think you have some good points, though. 
I do think that the Paragon devs have made some mistakes and the HC devs are left to make things work if/how they can. 

When CoV came out, I thought it was an insanely stupid thing to do. A game that is struggling to get really massive (compared to other games), decides to split it's talent and create a new world, with totally new ATs and powersets. A number of players stop paying for one game, and begin to play the new game. Then they realize how stupid of an idea that was, and try to merge the worlds so heroes can play with villains. 
Then, they didn't learn from it and create yet a third world, only to discover that while many appreciate the complexities of the stories, the inability to go to and fro with other players that aren't praetorian left a lot of the players that did like to play the content unhappy due to the loneliness of that world. 

It's why I believe there should be no alignments at all. But, if they do that - then what to do about all those alignment badges? I'm sure it would be a bloody mess to remove alignments anyway, but it's just a dream of mine. 
 

I don't really see the ATs with these generalities that you do. Too many people I know play petless MMs, and play blasters as if they can only blast from a distance, and other blasters as if they have no ranged attacks. I've seen too many brutes that play like tanks, and tanks that play like blind scrappers. Most folks don't want to fit into a given mold when they play, so they do things the way it pleases them at that moment. And that's usually fine. 

Folks wanted their incarnate powers to mean something, and now, with the hard mode stuff, they do. Still seems like a bit too much. How does one enjoy oneself when they are so focused on spamming barrier at the right moment? 
"Oh noes! We only have 4 barriers on this team, so we must use them every 30 seconds in rotation, so be sure you're in range!" 

I completely get that for some, this is just the kind of coordination and strategy they've been wanting! And both Aeon and the HM ITF are really well done, except both are just too damned long to suit me. 

I'd rather have each broken into 2 task forces, rather than sit that long for one. But, it is what it is, and eventually the time to complete won't take as long. 

[The_Warpact]

@Ukase it's people that have posted several times that they are scaling back, quitting, etc specifically because of what is occurring. Some have been very vocal in other threads. 

In addition there are threads that specific ATs just arent working in hard mode aka masterminds, etc even spamming barrier.

 

I never like Going Rogue, the blurred lines, as a way to rollout Praetoria and the Incarnates. Really it was the beginning of the end for me. Too much grind, to run hard stuff, meh not exciting for most.

 

But, to each their own. Thanks for keeping it civil btw, something else that seems to be disappearing these days.

[Excraft]

I'm not sure I would blame it on side switching or incarnates.  From what I see, it's the very poor attitude toward anyone who questions changes and the reasons given for them and who aren't heaping praise and adoration on the people doing the coding.  Anyone who offers a different opinion is shouted at and told they're wrong or whatever. 

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Excraft said:

I'm not sure I would blame it on side switching or incarnates.  From what I see, it's the very poor attitude toward anyone who questions changes and the reasons given for them and who aren't heaping praise and adoration on the people doing the coding.  Anyone who offers a different opinion is shouted at and told they're wrong or whatever. 

Every game has its fan bois and cheerleaders that's a given. It's the ability to not question why things are done or not have a differing opinion and just following the rank and file that disturbs me.

As I am aware of your position and others who I've conversed with have in a roundabout way start to post things the way I do or in this case call into question or point out things I just don't like.

There should be questions on why things are done, accountability, and what is being done to fix it.

[Bionic_Flea]

The thing I have found about CoH over these last 18 years or so is that there is a lot of different things to do and those things appeal to different people. 

 

We have:

Speed running

Marketing

Soloing

Badging

Costume making

Build making

Farming

Power leveling

Giant Monster Hunting

Hardmode (ing?)
Exploring

Lore diving

Story telling

Role playing

Base designing

PvPing

 

Did I miss anything?

 

The last few patches were a boon for hardmode lovers, which really didn't exist since The Really Hard Way badge became relatively easy.  And this last patch in particular was detrimental to AE farming and PLing.  So I can understand that those that like hardmode are more excited than those that like farming. 

 

But they still have all those things in my list.  I personally dabble in all of them to some extent although I do more of the top of the list than the bottom.

 

If you are feeling burnt out, there is nothing wrong with taking a break.  I have done that at times.  But other times I have tried to break out of my rut by trying something new or giving myself a challenge.

 

If you do take a break, I hope you come back.  I don't think I've ever played with you, Warpact, and we've certainly never met, but I've always enjoyed reading your posts.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[ShardWarrior]

29 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

It's the ability to not question why things are done or not have a differing opinion and just following the rank and file that disturbs me.

 

Completely agree on this point and would add that it is more than clear rules are in no way applied evenly.  Very sad to see and in my opinion this kind of unfriendly, unwelcoming environment is doing more harm than good. 

[The_Warpact]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Snipt

Thanks Flea for the words, it is appreciated. I think I'm more burnt out by the direction of HC and especially these forums.

 

Think I might wander around to some of the other servers and see what's going on. Don't get me wrong, I love the game it's just certain decisions I feel cater to some and not the whole.

[Astralock]

If you really want to get down into it:

 

Mistakes made by Paragon Studios: Side switching, adding a new tutorial area (Praetoria, despite that I actually like it).

 

Mistakes made by the Homecoming team, (most of which were the result of trying to rush Homecoming out):

 

• PvP IO enhancements no longer remained gatekept behind PvP.
• ATOs and winter origin enhancements became too freely available.
• Veteran levels giving out Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits.
• AE having the option to give standard drops.
• Sentinels.
• Free 50% XP boosters.
• Double XP boosters, period.

 

What you're seeing with Pages 3 and 4, and will undoubtedly continue to see with pages 5, 6, and so on, are attempts to both correct the serious power creep enabled by Homecoming's decision to rush out the SCoRE codebase to the general public, and provide additional difficult content to make use of said power creep.

[Excraft]

1 minute ago, Astralock said:

If you really want to get down into it:

 

Mistakes made by Paragon Studios: Side switching, adding a new tutorial area (Praetoria, despite that I actually like it).

 

Mistakes made by the Homecoming team, (most of which were the result of trying to rush Homecoming out):

 

• PvP IO enhancements no longer remained gatekept behind PvP.
• ATOs and winter origin enhancements became too freely available.
• Veteran levels giving out Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits.
• AE having the option to give standard drops.
• Sentinels.
• Free 50% XP boosters.
• Double XP boosters, period.

 

What you're seeing with Pages 3 and 4, and will undoubtedly continue to see with pages 5, 6, and so on, are attempts to both correct the serious power creep enabled by Homecoming's decision to rush out the SCoRE codebase to the general public, and provide additional difficult content to make use of said power creep.

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think that, like anything, where we are depends on how we got where we are.  Today, there are different parties with different motives and agendas that there was a decade ago.

 

And that's cool.  Since the code is now available, if not strictly legally available, there is nothing to stop anyone with the desire and the knowledge of the code to reprogram and launch a version of CoX that meets their specific requirements.

 

Personally, I'm happy enough to let other people manage this version, since it is in no way in my best interests in terms of time or effort or whatever for me to launch my own server.

[cranebump]

I'm with @The_Warpact when it comes to the effects of incarnates. While we can still choose our own endgame, thus eschewing the entire path (and its power construction minigame) if we want. But, if we do that, we're locked out of some of the content. I guess if a player doesn't dig Incarnate material, fine. But someone who might want to play everything is going to be forced into the incarnate mini-game of power tiers and all the associated salvage and construction and slotting and everything else. Feels like it would've made more sense to devise additional content that a basic character could play, rather than create an additional tier that necessitates a new set of just plain stuff.

 

This is also the reason I've run those paths very few times. Never have liked having to mumbo-jumbo my way through an additional lair of bullshit, just as I had reached the supposed pinnacle. But, if I want to "actually" be at the peak (or even survive at the wang-waving level), then, well, I'm just gonna have to play a new game of crafting. Anyway, been there, done that with a few toons. Now I just don't bother anymore. If I get a char to 50, I just pretend Mender Jackass and all those guys just don't really exist.:-)

Edited August 30, 2022 by cranebump

[MoonSheep]

46 minutes ago, Astralock said:

If you really want to get down into it:

 

Mistakes made by Paragon Studios: Side switching, adding a new tutorial area (Praetoria, despite that I actually like it).

 

Mistakes made by the Homecoming team, (most of which were the result of trying to rush Homecoming out):

 

• PvP IO enhancements no longer remained gatekept behind PvP.
• ATOs and winter origin enhancements became too freely available.
• Veteran levels giving out Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits.
• AE having the option to give standard drops.
• Sentinels.
• Free 50% XP boosters.
• Double XP boosters, period.

 

What you're seeing with Pages 3 and 4, and will undoubtedly continue to see with pages 5, 6, and so on, are attempts to both correct the serious power creep enabled by Homecoming's decision to rush out the SCoRE codebase to the general public, and provide additional difficult content to make use of said power creep.

 

100% agree

 

i’d also add that IOs are far too affordable making most content not fit for purpose as characters have become overpowered

 

a final build should be earned over time as an achievement, not as something that’s completed in a few hours

[Excraft]

7 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

100% agree

 

i’d also add that IOs are far too affordable making most content not fit for purpose as characters have become overpowered

 

a final build should be earned over time as an achievement, not as something that’s completed in a few hours

 

 

 

[DrunkFlux]

I admit I'm not 100% in agreement with just making more and more hardcore content.  If largely from my fear of the catch-22 it creates; Newer chars of mine are not going to get to level up with ITF anymore, everyone will only pick hard mode, which non-50s are not good enough for.

 

This simply makes leveling them take longer.  As it is, the rewards are nothing but cosmetics, why would I care for that as much?  But also I feel a hair frustrated I guess.

 

I only went into the ASF twice, due to it's length being a bit on the long side.  While I might enter hard mode ITFs, i'm not honestly as interested in them.  While they are appreciable challenges, I have alts to level to, and I don't like using AE to max my characters.  It's not as fun or entertaining, the highest I'll PL a char in AE is around 20-30 level range, after that, I'd rather get a feel for the characters powers.  At the same time, somehow I feel leveling can be faster in +4 PI teams and its even faster in +4 ITF classic.  But no one will do +4 ITF classic anymore, it'll only be hard mode, guaranteed(complacent gamer syndrome, feeling of need to do hard mode because they can, and thus, have to).

[Neiska]

8 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

100% agree

 

i’d also add that IOs are far too affordable making most content not fit for purpose as characters have become overpowered

 

a final build should be earned over time as an achievement, not as something that’s completed in a few hours

 

With respect, I disagree with both of you, but I respect your opinion. I think when we get to the heart of the matter, it comes down to essentially what each person thinks is "overpowered." I mean, if some things are "too strong" as things stand, then why can only certain AT power combinations with certain outside buffs do things like Solo GMs? Not everyone can, in fact, most cannot. But I hasten to add that I am not suggesting everything be boosted to that level, I bring up the point to highlight that people don't agree where the finish line or goalpost stands. I mean, by what metric do we want to try to balance things? Is it Soloing TFs? GMs/AVs? Not even all builds/ATs can solo +4/8 difficulty, no matter how much INF you put into them or how high of an incarnate you have. 

 

I think it is more important that we as a community should find a rough idea of where the "goal post" is, before we attempt any creative discussions about balance, because right now not everyone agrees on what overpowered or underpowered is. Over/under powered compared to what? What frame of reference here?

 

And the issue gets even more complex, when you take certain scenarios into consideration. As an example, lets look at a robot/traps mastermind, one of the best soloers to date. Sure it can perform amazing feats if you are patient. But on the new hard mode? I don't think anyone is going to plead the case that a robot/trap is OP and needs to be nerfed.

 

And it gets even more complicated in addition to those above points, when trying to compare different features, such as a tanks durability to a domi's debuffs, or a scrappers DPS to a defenders support power.

 

I think there is a lot of "line drawing" that needs to happen before any real sense of balance can be achieved, both by the community and perhaps by the GMs.

 

My two cents

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

If you really want to get down into it:

 

Mistakes made by Paragon Studios: Side switching, adding a new tutorial area (Praetoria, despite that I actually like it).

 

Mistakes made by the Homecoming team, (most of which were the result of trying to rush Homecoming out):

 

• PvP IO enhancements no longer remained gatekept behind PvP.
• ATOs and winter origin enhancements became too freely available.
• Veteran levels giving out Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits.
• AE having the option to give standard drops.
• Sentinels.
• Free 50% XP boosters.
• Double XP boosters, period.

 

What you're seeing with Pages 3 and 4, and will undoubtedly continue to see with pages 5, 6, and so on, are attempts to both correct the serious power creep enabled by Homecoming's decision to rush out the SCoRE codebase to the general public, and provide additional difficult content to make use of said power creep.

 

So making the game more accessible and less restricted was a huge mistake in your opinion?

[MoonSheep]

2 minutes ago, Krimson said:

What about those of us who actually PLAY our 50s, so when we make a new 50, we already have enough INF to slot the new one, because we play our 50s?

 

unslotters can be bought for a low price from the AH, cannibalise existing alts to feed the new main

[MoonSheep]

Just now, Krimson said:

I mean, I can't help but slot a new 50 quickly because I already HAVE the INF. I haven't farmed seriously in months either. I just log in with a 50 and start playing. INF makes itself. 

 

sorry if i’m being slow, what’s the problem then? 

 

i do find inf is quite plentiful, though i only play 2 mains and dabble with one or two other ideas. the test server has been a great tool for trying out concepts and hairbrain schemes 

[The_Warpact]

30 minutes ago, cranebump said:

I'm with @The_Warpact when it comes to the effects of mumbo-jumbo bullshit wang-waving, you Jackass

Sorry that's all I caught. It's just how my brain works, yes, I derail my own threads..😁

[The_Warpact]

13 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

With respect, I disagree with both of you, but I respect your opinion. I think when we get to the heart of the matter, it comes down to essentially what each person thinks is "overpowered." I mean, if some things are "too strong" as things stand, then why can only certain AT power combinations with certain outside buffs do things like Solo GMs? Not everyone can, in fact, most cannot. But I hasten to add that I am not suggesting everything be boosted to that level, I bring up the point to highlight that people don't agree where the finish line or goalpost stands. I mean, by what metric do we want to try to balance things? Is it Soloing TFs? GMs/AVs? Not even all builds/ATs can solo +4/8 difficulty, no matter how much INF you put into them or how high of an incarnate you have. 

 

I think it is more important that we as a community should find a rough idea of where the "goal post" is, before we attempt any creative discussions about balance, because right now not everyone agrees on what overpowered or underpowered is. Over/under powered compared to what? What frame of reference here?

 

And the issue gets even more complex, when you take certain scenarios into consideration. As an example, lets look at a robot/traps mastermind, one of the best soloers to date. Sure it can perform amazing feats if you are patient. But on the new hard mode? I don't think anyone is going to plead the case that a robot/trap is OP and needs to be nerfed.

 

And it gets even more complicated in addition to those above points, when trying to compare different features, such as a tanks durability to a domi's debuffs, or a scrappers DPS to a defenders support power.

 

I think there is a lot of "line drawing" that needs to happen before any real sense of balance can be achieved, both by the community and perhaps by the GMs.

 

My two cents

Balance lol, just not possible. I'm still insistent that Going Rogue created that illusion. If anything in any newer harder content MMs are falling further by the wayside. But. But. Just stack quadruple barrier!!! (That's not a directly pointed snark either)

[Excraft]

13 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

So making the game more accessible and less restricted was a huge mistake in your opinion?

 

Some people still want to treat this game like it's a commercial product where the objective is to keep you paying and playing longer.  It's not a commercial product anymore.  It's never going to be a commercial product ever again.  Some people just want to force their view on others and won't be satisfied until they drive out anyone who disagrees with them. 

 

The slow road server already exists, but there's hardly anyone there.  That speaks volumes.

[Astralock]

12 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

So making the game more accessible and less restricted was a huge mistake in your opinion?

 

Yes, undoubtedly.  The game was simply not balanced for that level of accessibility.  Some things being rare and relatively inaccessible were part of the balance equation.  That balance was broken by the greater accessibility enabled by SCoRE.  For the past three years, there's been all kinds of complaints both here and on the Homecoming Discord server.  "This game is too easy."  "People keep throwing Judgements all over the place."  "Blasters are tanking TFs."  How do you think that these became issues?

[Neiska]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

Balance lol, just not possible. I'm still insistent that Going Rogue created that illusion. If anything in any newer harder content MMs are falling further by the wayside. But. But. Just stack quadruple barrier!!! (That's not a directly pointed snark either)

 

Oh, I think its possible, just not at a level everyone would be happy with. Personally I try to see as +2/8 difficulty at level 50 as the goal post/finish line, and anything after that as bonus/extra/new game +. Why +2/8? Well, because first off that's something that every AT can manage, with just about any power pick available. Secondly it doesn't require being all purpled and incarnated out, so anyone on a budget can compete. Beyond that is a bonus difficulty. Personally I like redlining builds, pushing them, seeing what's possible, trying new things, and the like. I usually play on +4/8 whenever I am able. 

 

So to my mind, we already sort of had a hard mode already, with more difficulties stacked on top of that. I also admit not everyone shares the same opinion, but that's all right.

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Yes, undoubtedly.  The game was simply not balanced for that level of accessibility.  Some things being rare and relatively inaccessible were part of the balance equation.  That balance was broken by the greater accessibility enabled by SCoRE.  For the past three years, there's been all kinds of complaints both here and on the Homecoming Discord server.  "This game is too easy."  "People keep throwing Judgements all over the place."  "Blasters are tanking TFs."  How do you think that these became issues?

 

So what?  Not a single one of these are issues to everyone.  If you don't want to be on teams where people are doing stuff you don't like, then quit the team and form your own.  Find other like minded players and play how you like.  These issues are all self inflicted on you by you.

 

Some things being rare and relatively inaccessible worked great for a commercial product.  It's not a commercial product anymore.  It's never going to be a commercial product.