Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

Yes, undoubtedly.  The game was simply not balanced for that level of accessibility.  Some things being rare and relatively inaccessible were part of the balance equation.  That balance was broken by the greater accessibility enabled by SCoRE.  For the past three years, there's been all kinds of complaints both here and on the Homecoming Discord server.  "This game is too easy."  "People keep throwing Judgements all over the place."  "Blasters are tanking TFs."  How do you think that these became issues?

 

And what, pray tell do you think they should do about it? Lets mull over the options -

1. Reset button? - make everyone start over and make those purples way more rare like you suggest. I imagine folks would leave in droves if this was done, and things would certainly be rare all right, players included.

2. Band-aid fix it? - make purples even rarer? That will only make them go up in value. And given time, they will still be just as common. It really depends on how quickly they are picked up and used (or how quickly alts are made.) But this is still only a temporary or bad fix, and do more harm than good. People rarely react well to having things they used to have suddenly taken away, in order to artificially make the game harder or character advancement longer.

3. Add difficulties? - this seems to be the option they have added, and its something of a poo-show. Some ATs and powersets are completely useless or even worse, actually a detriment. This new content is pretty harsh on Sentinels, Stalkers, Brutes, and Masterminds in particular. I see many scrappers, blasters, corruptors, and dominators doing it though. If you want "balance" I would look at those.

 

Realistically, it is sort of a no-win situation. Any sort of fix will either piss people off, or only make things worse. Now you could balance things back to "ye olden times," but I would also expect a massive drop in community numbers. Now that might be all right with you, but I for one prefer things how they currently are, rather than a balanced but dead server.

[Neiska]

Just now, Krimson said:

In order to solo Giant Monsters, here is what you need.

 

1. A toon that can tank a Giant Monster. Two of my blasters can do this. This is easier than tanking any +4 content. Even Council.

2. Some sort of DPS chain that has single target damage. Sorry Defenders, Peacebringers, Tankers, and Sentinels. And to the person who accused me of trying to kill steal Kraken while on my Tanker... Bwahahahaha!

3. Envenomed Daggers.

 

That is it. Have some durability, some DPS, and a handy temp power? You are now a Giant Monster Hunter. Go start with Kraken or Babbage in Boomtown, and if you are feeling a little frisky, give Ghost of Scrapyard a go. Fun Fact: Fighting regular Jack in Irons alone is harder than fighting both Grim Vale Jack and Eochai at the same time. 

 

Sure, but not every AT has even durability or strong DPS. I can think of many ATs that I have never heard soloing a GM. But I do want to say that I don't think we should use "soloing GM/AVs" as a measuring stick either, because honestly it is kind of unfair to some powersets, and represents a minor aspect of the game. Off the top of my head, you need ST dps, with -regen debuff. And most people who do open world content seem to favor AoE damage which is favored for mission activities and what have you.

 

I mean, for context to my mind it would be the same as if trying to balance the game around the notion that everyone was multiboxing accounts, which I hardly think represents any kind of large number of the player community. The people who multibox are a small part, just as the ATs who solo GMS, or even players who solo gms/avs, are all a small part of the whole.

 

Just my opinion.

[The_Warpact]

14 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Oh, I think its possible, just not at a level everyone would be happy with. Personally I try to see as +2/8 difficulty at level 50 as the goal post/finish line, and anything after that as bonus/extra/new game +. Why +2/8? Well, because first off that's something that every AT can manage, with just about any power pick available. Secondly it doesn't require being all purpled and incarnated out, so anyone on a budget can compete. Beyond that is a bonus difficulty. Personally I like redlining builds, pushing them, seeing what's possible, trying new things, and the like. I usually play on +4/8 whenever I am able. 

 

So to my mind, we already sort of had a hard mode already, with more difficulties stacked on top of that. I also admit not everyone shares the same opinion, but that's all right.

True.

 

 

One thing of note saying you can still play a SO build anymore is a joke. Not that I can recall the HC staff have ever tried sticking to that unrealistic mantra.

[The_Warpact]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Rebirth has been touted as having a more "authentic" experience without all the easy stuff. It also typically has a population about 1/3 of Indomitable. 

One thing I posted in another thread, having a greater population doesn't equate to being a superior product. 

[The_Warpact]

2 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Yeah but soloing with that button that automatically levels your SOs is pretty sweet. 

But having IOs that are attuned is sweeter.

[Frostbiter]

20 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

Yes, undoubtedly.  The game was simply not balanced for that level of accessibility.  Some things being rare and relatively inaccessible were part of the balance equation.  That balance was broken by the greater accessibility enabled by SCoRE.  For the past three years, there's been all kinds of complaints both here and on the Homecoming Discord server.  "This game is too easy."  "People keep throwing Judgements all over the place."  "Blasters are tanking TFs."  How do you think that these became issues?

 

Then I guess we'll just have to balance it again, because no one wants to go back to the way it was Live. If only we could all agree on how to go about that. Personally, I don't really care. I'll play what comes and let the ones doing the work figure it out. If I thought I knew better I'd be doing the work.

[Astralock]

Just now, Neiska said:

 

And what, pray tell do you think they should do about it? Lets mull over the options -

1. Reset button? - make everyone start over and make those purples way more rare like you suggest. I imagine folks would leave in droves if this was done, and things would certainly be rare all right, players included.

2. Band-aid fix it? - make purples even rarer? That will only make them go up in value. And given time, they will still be just as common. It really depends on how quickly they are picked up and used (or how quickly alts are made.) But this is still only a temporary or bad fix, and do more harm than good. People rarely react well to having things they used to have suddenly taken away, in order to artificially make the game harder or character advancement longer.

3. Add difficulties? - this seems to be the option they have added, and its something of a poo-show. Some ATs and powersets are completely useless or even worse, actually a detriment. This new content is pretty harsh on Sentinels, Stalkers, Brutes, and Masterminds in particular. I see many scrappers, blasters, corruptors, and dominators doing it though. If you want "balance" I would look at those.

 

Realistically, it is sort of a no-win situation. Any sort of fix will either piss people off, or only make things worse. Now you could balance things back to "ye olden times," but I would also expect a massive drop in community numbers. Now that might be all right with you, but I for one prefer things how they currently are, rather than a balanced but dead server.

 

The game has already lost about 75% of its population compared to two years ago.  A good many of them (not all, probably not even most, but definitely a good many), including most of my friends (dozens of people), that played back in 2019 and early 2020, are long gone because they felt that SCoRE's changes made the game too easy.  They're right.  So by doing nothing about the power creep for so long, Homecoming has already lost a lot of players.  You're right, it's a no-win situation.  But by doing nothing for so long, Homecoming has already lost people, and they'll continue to lose more.

 

I hoped that some of my friends would come back to check out the ASF, but not a single one did, as they all moved on to raiding in different games.  A couple of them came back to check out the Advanced Difficulty ITF, hoping finally for some challenging content, but they saw people cheesing it by cycling the Barrier Destiny instead of using anything resembling strategy, and noped right back out.  

[Neiska]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

But having IOs that are attuned is sweeter.

 

For me the ultra feeling of satisfaction is finding that perfect badge title that fits my characters powers, theme, name, roleplay, and costume. When everything aligns it is pure Nirvana. 🙂

[Frostbiter]

4 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

One thing I posted in another thread, having a greater population doesn't equate to being a superior product. 

 

Logical fallacy. If this were true the best band in the world is the one with no fans at all.

[TheZag]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Did I miss anything?

 

Out of bounds (ing)

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Astralock said:

 

The game has already lost about 75% of its population compared to two years ago.  A good many of them (not all, probably not even most, but definitely a good many), including most of my friends (dozens of people), that played back in 2019 and early 2020, are long gone because they felt that SCoRE's changes made the game too easy.  They're right.  So by doing nothing about the power creep for so long, Homecoming has already lost a lot of players.  You're right, it's a no-win situation.  But by doing nothing for so long, Homecoming has already lost people, and they'll continue to lose more.

 

I hoped that some of my friends would come back to check out the ASF, but not a single one did, as they all moved on to raiding in different games.  A couple of them came back to check out the Advanced Difficulty ITF, hoping finally for some challenging content, but they saw people cheesing it by cycling the Barrier Destiny instead of using anything resembling strategy, and noped right back out.  

 

I am sorry to hear about your friends, truly. But you aren't the only one's who lost friends here either, I suspect we all have to some degree. I have lost friends for the opposite reason - not that thing's are too difficult, but because we lost things we used to have. And some of my friends are far less flexible than myself when it comes to "play your way," and that includes things like roleplay mind you. More often than not my global friends is full of "offlines" unless its an ITF or rp night or something. On any other night? Just me soloing. 

 

Anyway, point is that just as many people have left because of changes, not because things were not changed enough. 

[The_Warpact]

3 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Logical fallacy. If this were true the best band in the world is the one with no fans at all.

Ok it's in the wording.

 

Having the largest population server doesn't mean it's the best server. Better?

[SeraphimKensai]

I get where @Krimsonis coming from between my 3 accounts I have I don't know maybe 130ish lvl 50s that are IO'd to the gills. I play my level 50s and get larger rewards than say playing a lvl 1. Since Homecoming launched I've amassed a reasonable fortune so slotting a new toon with IOs as it levels is pretty much standard practice for me at this point.

 

Regarding @The_Warpact's concern, I see it being a valid point as the player population has stagnated.

 

There has been some (albeit limited) creation of early/mid level arcs in IP, but it seems as if the HC devs are trying to add some more content options at the higher levels as it seems a large portion of the player base rushes through the lower level stuff (myself included, as since we are all 18 years older since the release of the game, a lot of us dont have time to really spend two months of play time riding a debt capped lvl 10 blaster through Hydra Hunting In Perez Park. As I get older my time has become a much more precious commodity to me.

 

That said the game ran it's course, was cut short, and resurrected. The fact that this many of us are still around 3.5 years later tells a lot about the game. It's natural though that some people get burnt out (the first time I took a self chosen long break from CoH was to getninto Oblivion, prior to that I took a break due to going to war where we didn't have the best Internet options), I'm kinda in a quasi break right now as I play Assassin's Creed Odyssey and wait the next week or so on the birth of my daughter.

 

Incidentally though I like the Hard Mode content, I don't have a problem with it being hard and requiring IO's and Incarnate powers, that said it'd be cool to have someone cleaning up old task forces and story arcs by restructuring them a bit so they aren't tedious (repetitive missions, and excuse to use travel powers all over dodge) but present a decent challenge for their respective levels while telling an engaging story.

[Frostbiter]

4 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Ok it's in the wording.

 

Having the largest population server doesn't mean it's the best server. Better?

 

Most populated although that would be a qualifier for "better" in the minds of most.

[Bionic_Flea]

4 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

wait the next week or so on the birth of my daughter.

Congrats!

[SeraphimKensai]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

Congrats!

Thanks.

[Neiska]

This is just me musing here but, what if the different servers actually had different rules, that way people who favored whatever activity could go to what they enjoyed?

 

Make one server hardcore, with regards to incarnates and things. Incarnate mats only from X or Y activities

Make another one where farming is allowed and permitted.

another server can be the circus. Full on pvp, zero control measures. Let chaos reign baby!

Another server gets Ragnarock'd. Armageddon'd. Relevation'd. The End times. Everyone starts over from zip, with its own independent isolated economy and such. 

etc.

 

These are just examples off the top of my head. But it did occur to me that we DO have more than 1 server here. But I don't possess the technical knowledge to know for sure how hard it would be for them to have different server playstyles/rulesets for different servers. 

 

I mean, isn't that sort of an everyone wins scenario? I know this would likely take a LOT of work to pull off, but lets say that it did. Would this be an "everyone has their place" situation?

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'm still not convinced that this mythical balance fairy that developers are always chasing is something that can, or should, be caught.

 

Sure, similar ATs should at least be in the same ballpark, but I don't think that they all have to be. Scrappers, for example, can solo way better than Defenders. I don't believe that's a problem, other people feel differently.

 

A lot of people complain that MMs can't handle the hardest difficulty content. I love my MMs but, once again, I just don't see that as a problem.

 

I think most of the complaints are just nit-picking and navel-gazing by people who just don't want to admit that the real problem is that they're bored. They don't want to leave because of the feeling that "We finally got back what was so unfairly taken from us!" But the truth is that they're now bored by City of Heroes and they either don't realize it, or some part of them does, but they can't admit it even to themselves.

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A lot of people complain that MMs can't handle the hardest difficulty content. I love my MMs but, once again, I just don't see that as a problem.

 

I think most of the complaints are just nit-picking and navel-gazing by people who just don't want to admit that the real problem is that they're bored. They don't want to leave because of the feeling that "We finally got back what was so unfairly taken from us!" But the truth is that they're now bored by City of Heroes and they either don't realize it, or some part of them does, but they can't admit it even to themselves.

 

Respectfully, I don't see how my pets on my most durable MMs getting one shot on harder difficulties arises from me being "bored." There is a difference between "challenging" and "I am not going to bother re-summoning, because they will instantly die before the power is even off cooldown." It's just straight up 1 shot mechanics as far as pets are concerned. And no I don't think it was designed that way on purpose for pets, I just think it was an unintended consequence.

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

For another example, I could city Giant Monster Hunting as a "Superior" activity. However, it is not a fast hobby. At all. INF and XP are paltry compared to two minutes of street sweeping in PI, and the merits are a trickle. But do you think I could sell this to many players as something they would want to do? Players prefer to form a big gang so they can boot-stomp the poor thing in seconds with no risk. 

I love solo GM hunting it's actually how I test my toons effectiveness.

 

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

I think most of the complaints are just nit-picking and navel-gazing by people who just don't want to admit that the real problem is that they're bored. They don't want to leave because of the feeling that "We finally got back what was so unfairly taken from us!" But the truth is that they're now bored by City of Heroes and they either don't realize it, or some part of them does, but they can't admit it even to themselves.

I highlighted the word that should be emphasized.

Mine on the other hand is not boredom just the general direction, hence, this thread. 

[Frostbiter]

2 minutes ago, Krimson said:

For another example, I could city Giant Monster Hunting as a "Superior" activity. However, it is not a fast hobby. At all. INF and XP are paltry compared to two minutes of street sweeping in PI, and the merits are a trickle. But do you think I could sell this to many players as something they would want to do? Players prefer to form a big gang so they can boot-stomp the poor thing in seconds with no risk. 

 

Human nature is funny and humans are even funnier. Have you seen how many different ways they try to put on pants?

[The_Warpact]

11 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Most populated although that would be a qualifier for "better" in the minds of most.

Yeah unfortunately.

[EmperorSteele]

16 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Ok it's in the wording.

 

Having the largest population server doesn't mean it's the best server. Better?

 

So, which server IS the best server then?

 

If you don't have an answer to that (or if it winds up being HC anyway) then your point, as logical as it may be in general, falls flat on its face.

[Astralock]

2 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

So, which server IS the best server then?

 

If you don't have an answer to that (or if it winds up being HC anyway) then your point, as logical as it may be in general, falls flat on its face.

 

There is no best server.

[BurtHutt]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm still not convinced that this mythical balance fairy that developers are always chasing is something that can, or should, be caught.

 

Sure, similar ATs should at least be in the same ballpark, but I don't think that they all have to be. Scrappers, for example, can solo way better than Defenders. I don't believe that's a problem, other people feel differently.

 

A lot of people complain that MMs can't handle the hardest difficulty content. I love my MMs but, once again, I just don't see that as a problem.

 

I think most of the complaints are just nit-picking and navel-gazing by people who just don't want to admit that the real problem is that they're bored. They don't want to leave because of the feeling that "We finally got back what was so unfairly taken from us!" But the truth is that they're now bored by City of Heroes and they either don't realize it, or some part of them does, but they can't admit it even to themselves.

I think this is pretty spot on. There is no way the game/HC team can sustain its initial momentum. The players will dwindle and some may return. There is no way the HC team can keep up with demand. This is the main reason I keep suggesting using the tools available in HC and have players generate content. I also feel this would cause a big increase in player interest and may get a number of players to return or give the game a go.

 

Earlier in the thread there was a list of concerns with HC. I didn't agree with most concerns but HC did make things a bit too easy. I cautioned against this several times in the past. The 'grind' is there for a reason. It should take time and effort to level your toon. Sure, PL if you want but don't make things even easier - the P2W vendor should not be able to hand out 2XP. Why add a Pocket D entrance in AP? These are just a couple of concerns.

 

I like HC. It's very professionally run. However, I feel they may improve their product with some more input from players or even using our ideas. 

 

The HC and Live Devs made mistakes. Sure. I suspect the Live Devs faced a ton of pressure from above to get results and maybe that pressure caused for some poor decisions. Going Rogue is cool and all but to have split the playerbase yet again was a disaster. There's a reason it's a ghost town. They would have been better off to add 6 ITF-level/quality TFs and just put that into the game over the expansion. Live Devs really did seem like they ran out of ideas and things became redundant, tired and it was obvious there was a lot of player fatigue - especially with the Praetoria angle.

 

I don't play the game as much as I used to. I have some time to play but I am bored. I come in once in a while and give it a go but quickly log off. Another break might be in store. The new Page didn't offer much I liked (I want to try Symphony and maybe give hard mode a go). I used to like costumes a lot but not much of interest was added there. 

 

Finally, I'd like to, yet again, thank the entire HC team. You guys brought back my fave game. This game is why I kinda played video games again. I don't play many but this one got me back into them. I just really hope the HC team doesn't follow the same path as the Live Devs - specifically, not embracing the community as much and get stuck in one direction or idea.

 

Thanks for listening!