Focused Feedback: Robotics Revamp

[The Curator]

Robotics

Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst, and Photon Grenade

• These powers all now apply a -200% regeneration debuff
• Pulse Rifle Blast cast time lowered from 1.87s to 1s
• Pulse Rifle Burst cast time lowered from 1.87s to 1.1s

Repair (now Maintenance Drone)

• Power has been replaced by Maintenance Drone.
• Maintenance Drone will use its own health to heal your other robots. It can't be healed and does not regenerate HP.
• Once it depletes its health, it will self destruct dealing minor damage.

Equip Robot

• Now grants passive resistances to henchmen.
• Can be enhanced by slotting the power with resistance sets and enhancements.

Upgrade Robot

• Now grants Repair to Protector Bots
• Can be enhanced by slotting the power with Healing sets and enhancements.

Henchmen

• Cast Times trimmed across the board (including personal attacks)
• Assault Bot no longer applies -regen, this effect is now applied by the Mastermind personal attacks.
• Henchmen have had their list of powers revamped, adding a few new powers to improve overall damage.
• Protector Bots summon power no longer accept heal enhancements.
• Henchmen no longer have resistances out of the box, Equip Robot is needed to get them.

[Astralock]

Before any complaints about the move of -regen from the henchmen to the Mastermind, please test the damage of your henchmen!  You should see that the increased damage of the henchmen more than makes up for it.  If not, report it.

[Dispari]

One thing this seems to gloss over, unless I'm reading the powers wrong in-game, all the bot attacks (except for one by the assault bot) now inherently do KD instead of KB? If so that is a major improvement all around for the set. Reigning it in by devoting slots to it was a pain.

[Neiska]

Mixed feelings about this one. Unless the Maintenance drone can take the pet aura IOs then this is kind of a nerf. Because now if you want the -regen, you have to take the personal attacks, which makes the primary with the tightest slotting, even tighter. Particularly with the KB to KD tax, and then slotting the personal attacks if you want to hit anything. Its hard to really say without seeing the detailed breakdown on the pets. But as this reads it feels like a half nerf/half buff. But if the Drone can be used as a Mule power, then it could be a game changer.

[Astralock]

8 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Mixed feelings about this one. Unless the Maintenance drone can take the pet aura IOs then this is kind of a nerf. Because now if you want the -regen, you have to take the personal attacks, which makes the primary with the tightest slotting, even tighter. Particularly with the KB to KD tax, and then slotting the personal attacks if you want to hit anything. Its hard to really say without seeing the detailed breakdown on the pets. But as this reads it feels like a half nerf/half buff. But if the Drone can be used as a Mule power, then it could be a game changer.

 

Test your robots' damage without any -regen, and also test without using a KB to KD IO enhancement in the tier one henchmen.

 

Personally, I only plan on getting and using one personal attack, as the -regen is now just icing on the cake.

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Astralock said:

 

Test your robots' damage without any -regen, and also test without using a KB to KD IO enhancement in the tier one henchmen.

 

Personally, I only plan on getting and using one personal attack, as the -regen is now just icing on the cake.

 

I have never been on beta. So, have to pass there.

 

And moving the -regen from being automatic on the t3 to personal attack is a straight up nerf. Before you had -500 consistently, it was the one thing that made robots good for avs/gms. Now? You can get up to 600%, IF you take all three attacks, and slot them to, well, actually hit anything that warrants having that much -regen.

 

So the way I see it, unless I am missing something, now Robots are even more slot and power taxed, without even the benefit of a Mule power to make up for it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

17 minutes ago, Neiska said:

So the way I see it

If you haven't tested it, you're "seeing" anything - you're just guessing.  Take your bots out for a spin on Brainstorm and work with facts and knowledge.  (I have, at least briefly.  So far I haven't found anything that feels like a significant nerf.)

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

If you haven't tested it, you're "seeing" anything - you're just guessing.  Take your bots out for a spin on Brainstorm and work with facts and knowledge.  (I have, at least briefly.  So far I haven't found anything that feels like a significant nerf.)

 

I am reading the information as its presented. And unless they post the details of pet attacks, then I won't bother setting up a beta. And without that data, taking what is provided, I can honestly say that before, I could solo avs/gms. With this change, I could not. Wouldn't call that a buff by any means. Now to get that -regen power, pretty much the only reason big teams brought robot mms along in the first place, you have to take other powers, 3 of them in fact to get to where you were before, as well as slot them to be able to reliably hit a target that warrants that big of a debuff.

 

And call it a wild and crazy guess that... against such targets, like AVs and GMs, they did not boost pet damage to that degree to compensate. So more or less they made "optional" attacks, more mandatory, at least for those targets, and charged you power picks and slots in the bargain.

 

By what measure or definition is that any kind of a "buff." It's a playstyle adjustment. Not a "buff."

[PorkTips]

This completely kills the team benefit of regen .... unless I break every build I have and take the powers.

 

Changes should not make a powerset worse if you dont indulge in the new stuff youre being pushed towards.

 

If the bots still did -regen, and the attacks also did a non-stacking -regen, allowing me to put the -regen where I want it, then fine.

 

Otherwise I'll just move away from robots.

[tiberius0476]

If Upgrade Robot gives Repair, which is a full heal, to the protector bots, then is there any benefit to enhancing the heal percentage? Shouldn't it still be a full heal? Is this just an odd spot to mule healing sets, or is pet power Repair not a full heal?

 

EDIT upon a little more delving it seems that though they are both called "Repair", the pet power is a set 30%, not a full heal. My bad, carry on

Edited October 5, 2022 by tiberius0476

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, tiberius0476 said:

If Upgrade Robot gives Repair, which is a full heal, to the protector bots, then is there any benefit to enhancing the heal percentage? Shouldn't it still be a full heal? Is this just an odd spot to mule healing sets, or is pet power Repair not a full heal?

When I was testing it, it was doing over 500 heal on lowbies if I recall over on the alpha server.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, PorkTips said:

This completely kills the team benefit of regen .... unless I break every build I have and take the powers.

It really doesn't, and the dps difference kinda makes up for that regardless. For sets like dark/traps and cold, you don't even lose anything in practice and it's even more of a straight buff.

 

That -regen only comes into play against AVs or GMs, so in 90% of all content, the bots are going to be way more useful to the team. In any case where a teammate has -regen and you're playing a bot secondary without it, you're doing much more for the team post-rework. In any situation where your assault bot would be the only reliable source of -regen, you're breaking even due to sheer damage gain.

 

I haven't been this excited to dust off my bot MM in a long time.

 

For those with doubts, I will happily shadowplay any scenario you want me to throw the set at, to compare performance to the live version. The loss of -regen on the assbot itself is nothing.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[GM Impervium]

As with all Beta feedback threads, we prefer qualified feedback from testing, rather than "armchair patchnote reading". And while everyone is entitled to an opinion, refusing to take 30 seconds to set up a beta account to take a look at things for oneself means the devs will likewise refuse to take your feedback seriously, which is no way to get things done. If you want a change reverted, you're going to have to do the work and prove why it's a bad thing.

And, as with all Beta feedback threads, any posts that are not substantive feedback may be removed at moderator discretion.

Consider this a friendly forum-wide reminder/warning. Thank you.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by GM Impervium

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

 

I am reading the information as its presented. And unless they post the details of pet attacks, then I won't bother setting up a beta. And without that data, taking what is provided, I can honestly say that before, I could solo avs/gms. With this change, I could not. Wouldn't call that a buff by any means. Now to get that -regen power, pretty much the only reason big teams brought robot mms along in the first place, you have to take other powers, 3 of them in fact to get to where you were before, as well as slot them to be able to reliably hit a target that warrants that big of a debuff.

 

And call it a wild and crazy guess that... against such targets, like AVs and GMs, they did not boost pet damage to that degree to compensate. So more or less they made "optional" attacks, more mandatory, at least for those targets, and charged you power picks and slots in the bargain.

 

By what measure or definition is that any kind of a "buff." It's a playstyle adjustment. Not a "buff."

I had the same thought and impression.  But I took a Bots/traps that doesn't have any MM rifle attacks and my Pylon times were FASTER on test.  It doesn't make sense to me either, but it's true.  Moreover, they changed the KB to KD on the bots attacks, which will help in standard missions and may let you move some slots around if you were slotting a -KB.

[Neiska]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

I had the same thought and impression.  But I took a Bots/traps that doesn't have any MM rifle attacks and my Pylon times were FASTER on test.  It doesn't make sense to me either, but it's true.  Moreover, they changed the KB to KD on the bots attacks, which will help in standard missions and may let you move some slots around if you were slotting a -KB.

 

Thank you Flea, that does make me feel a bit better. They didn't say anything about the KB to KD being standard now, so that's nice. No more KD tax. But after the aggressive discussion in Discord I am uncertain I even want to elaborate or contribute further. 

[ScarySai]

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I had the same thought and impression.  But I took a Bots/traps that doesn't have any MM rifle attacks and my Pylon times were FASTER on test.  It doesn't make sense to me either, but it's true.  Moreover, they changed the KB to KD on the bots attacks, which will help in standard missions and may let you move some slots around if you were slotting a -KB.

Traps has overkill -regen, and bots actually do real ST dps now. Makes sense to me. 😄

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[Bionic_Flea]

True.  I would guess that a Bots/FF would not see improved pylon times.  But that's just a guess.  Maybe the -res added to FF will balance out.

 

[ScarySai]

My assumption is it'll still be a gain, but I'm lazy, so I'm gonna see if someone else does the live/beta comparison so I don't have to.

[ScarySai]

21 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

True.  I would guess that a Bots/FF would not see improved pylon times.  But that's just a guess.  Maybe the -res added to FF will balance out.

 

Following up on my last post, I ran a few pylons on beta, but can't do any on live since my MM was dissected and undergoing rebuild.

 

Intentionally not using photon or poison trap to simulate a no -regen situation - 2:05 pylon time starting at first trap down.

 

Second pylon with no -regen used - 1:52, while losing two bots in the opener.

 

Third pylon: Not intentionally handicapping myself and using photon/poison trap and all that - 1:27

 

Keeping in mind that acid mortar takes a good chunk of time to build up, and most other sets will have much stronger opener -res, it's looking good.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[tiberius0476]

18 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Following up on my last post, I ran a few pylons on beta, but can't do any on live since my MM was dissected and undergoing rebuild.

 

Intentionally not using photon or poison trap to simulate a no -regen situation - 2:05 pylon time starting at first trap down.

 

Second pylon with no -regen used - 1:52, while losing two bots in the opener.

 

Third pylon: Not intentionally handicapping myself and using photon/poison trap and all that - 1:27

 

Keeping in mind that acid mortar takes a good chunk of time to build up, and most other sets will have much stronger opener -res, it's looking good.

So to be clear given the multiple changes at once in this patch, are you using the pulse rifle attacks too? Or is this just reflective of bot damage straight-up?

[ScarySai]

20 minutes ago, tiberius0476 said:

So to be clear given the multiple changes at once in this patch, are you using the pulse rifle attacks too? Or is this just reflective of bot damage straight-up?

 

It's reflective, yes. I only have the photon grenade on that character, but opted not to use it for the first two tests to measure raw dps output.

 

I believe the zero -regen run still beats most bot times, as I did a quick check and couldn't find anything below two minutes. Keeping in mind that other sets with more upfront -res would do better than traps waiting for it's triple acid stack and not using poison, seems pretty good.

[Lost Deep]

Okay, I've done some initial testing, was doing some stuff in the mid-levels to try the new progression, and here's my initial impressions:

1. The refinement to the bot abilities is VERY GOOD and feels much better. I love it.
2. The pulse rifle attacks still aren't worth taking.
 

I don't know end-game optimization, but -regen is a very niche application for much of the game. Yes, there's times when you really want it, but the rest of the time it's a fun fact. The only one of the pulse rifle powers I might take is Pulse Grenade, for -regen in an AoE, and even then it isn't worth slots. Any power pool attack except Toxic Dart is unquestionably better. The Endurance cost is just too high for the low damage it does, -regen or not.

 

If they're really good at super high-end stuff because of that -regen... well, that's nice, but they're still garbage in the 20s.

[ScarySai]

It essentially only matters on avs/gms.

 

But, ya know, most of the good mm secondaries have -regen, or a way of improving pet damage further.

 

If you don't have any -regen at all, daggers exist, and your odds of joining a full team without any -regen at all are pretty low.

 

Worth noting that the bot attacks are generally more worth taking than most, particularly photon grenade since you can get some decent CC with that. I'm toying around with the idea of taking pulse blast to fish for FFB procs.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[gameboy1234]

Was doing some light testing, going back and forth between Test and Live.  Noticed that on Live right now I don't really have much use for my personal attack (I had taken them because they help a bit at lower levels).  I joined an Eochai team on Live and had little to do.  On Test I would have at least had a reason to toss some attacks into the mix.

 

Side note: someone mentioned using Pylons as damage tests.  This works at 50 but a lot of gameplay doesn't occur at 50, especially if we're aiming to make changes that are friendly to new people.  Some test dummies that you can actually kill and measure time on would be handy (my Bots/FF I copied over is currently level 30).  Not sure how this could work because we'd need a comparison with Live.  Maybe a Dev sponsored AE mission?  Something like that where we can run a consistent mission with consistent enemies that work well for testing, spawned at any level, might help the testing in general.  Just thinking out loud mostly...

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

Just thinking out loud mostly...

 

You can set up (or find) an AE mission with either a low level AV, like Dr. Vahzilok, or make your own AV with limited powers.  A custom critter with limited powers won't be worth much XP, but it should make for a consistent punching bag.

 

I also know Sir Myshkin has published an AE or two for testing different melee attack sets.