Focused Feedback: Robotics Revamp

[WindDemon21]

Been busy with other changes, but gotta say not a fan of the -regen moved to the attacks, wish it would still be in the bots, even if spread out among them to equal the same amount. Going to be very end costly to try to keep that regen on with all 3 attacks, otherwise it's a -regen nerf too.

[Armaros]

I dont see why the -regen had to be completely removed from the Assault bot in order to buff Robot damage, and then to split it up into three personal attacks that dont even match the numbers of the -regen that has been lost?

Even more confusily is that removing the regen when -regen is the debuff from all other robot plasma attacks, and the devs have even standardized the other ones that didnt have it previously.

Now its removed to boost up personal attacks that still have no other reason to take and are still not worth it, and collectively have less regen with three power picks vs just using the old Assault bot.

Where robots that strong that they needed a side-grade for a revamp? This is also including the nerfs to the incendiary missiles with less aoe and less target cap.

 

No other MM set had to have direct stuff removed in order to have stuff added in these revamps, MMs were not overperformers in anyway, and if the old assault bot -regen was too strong, it could have been dialed back instead of outright removing it to personal attacks, whose magnitude and very low damage means no one will take them still besides flavor.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Armaros

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, Armaros said:

I dont see why the -regen had to be completely removed from the Assault bot in order to buff Robot damage, and then to split it up into three personal attacks that dont even match the numbers of the -regen that has been lost?

Even more confusily is that removing the regen when -regen is the debuff from all other robot plasma attacks, and the devs have even standardized the other ones that didnt have it previously.

Now its removed to boost up personal attacks that still have no other reason to take and are still not worth it, and collectively have less regen with three power picks vs just using the old Assault bot.

Where robots that strong that they needed a side-grade for a revamp? This is also including the nerfs to the incendiary missiles with less aoe and less target cap.

I woudln't even mind if say maybe, it went from 500% to 400% total, as long as it's still between the bots, but it should not be in the MM attacks especially with their end costs.

[Shazbotacus]

Are there any plans to use a different model for the Maintenance Drone? Right now it's literally just a floating protector bot torso with a bot head crammed into the neck hole with a thing on top of that and honestly I don't like it.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

something I have not really seen much mentioned about is the loss of inherent resistance in the pets being moved to equip.  now unless I sacrifice slots from other powers to place in equip to boost resistances, my bots take a serious hit to their survivability.

 

So far from my testing, I just cant see how the increased damage output out weighs all of the negative changes to the set (some may disagree).  Personally I'm just not seeing much benefit to the changes, unless I fundamentally change the way I play my Bots/dark that has used the same power choices since COV went live.  Now I must chose powers I don't want, and sacrifice slots to them from powers in my secondary that I need, just to justify a not so great buff in bot damage output.  All of this at the expense of being able to play my toon in the manner in which I have been doing so for many many years now. 

 

Sorry Devs, but too many changes to too many things. this is one of those times when baby steps are needed, not a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

something I have not really seen much mentioned about is the loss of inherent resistance in the pets being moved to equip.  now unless I sacrifice slots from other powers to place in equip to boost resistances, my bots take a serious hit to their survivability.

 

There's no loss, it's just moved to the equip powers. Which means now you can slot them, where you couldn't before.

[Sir Myshkin]

I want to toss an aside on the -Regen "debate": It really doesn't matter where, or if this really exists (in my opinion). Is it nice to have? Structurally yes, it's a nice additive, but that volume it produced isn't really comparative anywhere else and was more likely to be a nerfed aspect anyway, more than a retained one if the Bob's got a buff of any kind. Irregardless of this component's existence I don't personally feel there's enough balance in the damage department for these guys yet. I feel like we should be trading out something different over -Regen for another aspect involving a DoT and cauterization or plasma radiation related themes. The -Regen concept just doesn't add value to the moment-by-moment fight and general survival of the crew.

 

What about -HP? Not egregious amounts, but like what we see in Degenerative ballparks of -5 to -7%? Maybe each Bob gets -2% to stack up to -10% on a target?

 

And in regards to maybe a small bump to damage, as well as addressing the somewhat aggressively expendable behavior the Bob's seem to be experiencing right now, what about a modified Oil Slick for the Protector Bots? With Assault Bot having Ignition it'd be a pretty sure-fire *badum* execution into some burn patching if they were able to drop smaller, short cycled slicks with some DoT for a little flavor boost and damage boost.

[gameboy1234]

40 minutes ago, Shazbotacus said:

Are there any plans to use a different model for the Maintenance Drone? Right now it's literally just a floating protector bot torso with a bot head crammed into the neck hole with a thing on top of that and honestly I don't like it.

 

Honestly I hope they don't change it.  It looks better than many of the other "floating robot" type powers in the game.  (My personal bugaboo "it looks bad" is the Targeting Drone, which is literally just a cube with an SFX slapped on it.  Man that thing looks cheap.)

 

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Honestly I hope they don't change it.  It looks better than many of the other "floating robot" type powers in the game.  (My personal bugaboo "it looks bad" is the Targeting Drone, which is literally just a cube with an SFX slapped on it.  Man that thing looks cheap.)

 

Hey, it's got a lot more angles than just a cube! And at least it's just supposed to be a special effect, not an actual NPC, unlike the Robotic Drones Lore...

[gameboy1234]

5 hours ago, Armaros said:

I dont see why the -regen had to be completely removed from the Assault bot in order to buff Robot damage, and then to split it up into three personal attacks that dont even match the numbers of the -regen that has been lost?

 

I'm on the fence about this.  I think before the Bots had a chance of -Regen.  Now it's 100% of the time?  That might actually be an improvement.  We should now be able to reliably stack -600% Regen on a foe and keep it there, before status resistances. But I didn't have the time to test whether the current implementation is actually better.

[gameboy1234]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Hey, it's got a lot more angles than just a cube! And at least it's just supposed to be a special effect, not an actual NPC, unlike the Robotic Drones Lore...

 

If you're referring to the Lore pet re-uses the Targeting Drone SFX, yeah I took that back on Live and I was *so* disappointed.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

There's no loss, it's just moved to the equip powers. Which means now you can slot them, where you couldn't before.

My live vs beta check disagrees, equip on beta only provides ~1/2 of the resistance unslotted vs my live build inherent

 

On live here are the resistance values reported 

Battle drone 58.7%     Lethal, cold, Psi

Pro Bot         58.43%  Lethal, cold, Psi

Assault bot   59.23%   Lethal, cold, Psi

 

Beta w/ equip unslotted for resistance

Battle drone 18.75%    Lethal, cold, Psi

Pro Bot         25%         Lethal, cold, Psi

Assault bot   31.25%     Lethal, cold, Psi

 

if I go into a respec on live and view the resistances on the pets its 21% across the board. I get the values above with exact same build just viewed live vs beta when viewed power stats in enhancements window.  The thing is, none of my pets are slotted for resist  on live, and the beta build is a direct transfer from the live servers. so I am unsure of how the mechanics work, but without slotting equip, my pet resistances are decreased by these changes. If I am missing something with the mechanics of how its calculated, I could be off.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Mr. Apocalypse

[Armaros]

45 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

I'm on the fence about this.  I think before the Bots had a chance of -Regen.  Now it's 100% of the time?  That might actually be an improvement.  We should now be able to reliably stack -600% Regen on a foe and keep it there, before status resistances. But I didn't have the time to test whether the current implementation is actually better.

The assault bot had two -regen attacks and the debuffs could stack, there is literally no way for the new attacks to match the level of -regen you had before, even if you wasted three power picks and slotted the three attacks for a stable attack chain. And this means completely abandoning using your secondary/other powers to do so to keep the attack chain up.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Armaros

[WindDemon21]

19 minutes ago, Armaros said:

The assault bot had two -regen attacks and the debuffs could stack, there is literally no way for the new attacks to match the level of -regen you had before, even if you wasted three power picks and slotted the three attacks for a stable attack chain. And this means completely abandoning using your secondary/other powers to do so to keep the attack chain up.

Yup, it's abhorrid. Especially on busy sets like storm, elec affinity etc. Please, even if spread through the other bots, and lowered to maybe 750% -regen (or heck even 500%), but keep it in the pets. The attacks should be useful in their own right for damage and not kill your end. They shouldn't tie an existing essential mechanic into them and steal it from the pets for those, MANY who choose/do not want to take the MM attacks, again, especially for those busy secondaries and such.

[WindDemon21]

I wouldn't even mind a scaled debuff, something like, 50% from each minnion bot, 150% from the lt bots, and 300% from the assault bot. (totalling 750).

 

Edit: just for reference, you currently get -1000% from live bots from the assault bot.

Edited October 15, 2022 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:36 PM, The Curator said:

Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst, and Photon Grenade

• These powers all now apply a -200% regeneration debuff
• Pulse Rifle Blast cast time lowered from 1.87s to 1s
• Pulse Rifle Burst cast time lowered from 1.87s to 1.1s

And just for reference, the only place that -regen ever really matters, is against AVs. And ESPECIALLY on mm end costs, you can NOT expect us to spam photon grenade on a single target for the -regen.... Please fix the -regen back into the bots...

[Booper]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

I think before the Bots had a chance of -Regen

Correct. It was a 30% chance for 500% regeneration debuff on two of its attacks.

[WindDemon21]

27 minutes ago, Booper said:

Correct. It was a 30% chance for 500% regeneration debuff on two of its attacks.

 

This reads as the 30% chance is for the knockback, not the -regen. Even with that being so, in any regard, PLEASE keep the -regen in the pets and NOT the MM attacks. Especially in the aoe for something that is mostly only useful against a single target? c'mon.

 

And even if it is 30% chance, on the one 4s rech, even though his other attacks you can still pretty much guarantee that he'll use it  enough in 30s to perma that 500% -regen.

[Booper]

20 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

This reads as the 30% chance is for the knockback, not the -regen.

 

The power info doesn't show the requirements check for the regeneration debuff effect. From City of Data you can see how it's 30% chance:

 

The "ToHitRoll / ToHit <= 0.3" is basically an over-complicated way of saying 30% chance.

 

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Booper said:

 

The power info doesn't show the requirements check for the regeneration debuff effect. From City of Data you can see how it's 30% chance:

 

The "ToHitRoll / ToHit <= 0.3" is basically an over-complicated way of saying 30% chance.

 

Ah ok thanks, however, the rest of the point still stands. (that only changes the average -regen from live to about 650% average, so this version is still a nerf, and one hell of one to those who are too busy or skip the MM attacks. Please move the -regen back to the pets.

[Sir Myshkin]

32 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Ah ok thanks, however, the rest of the point still stands. (that only changes the average -regen from live to about 650% average, so this version is still a nerf, and one hell of one to those who are too busy or skip the MM attacks. Please move the -regen back to the pets.

 

I don't think this is going to happen. Too many of us have tested the state of the current changes and shown that the set is performing "better" at standard content than it did before, and equally with their DPS hitch when it comes to singular targeting. It would be better to look for areas to improve the direction things are at right now then trying to drag the -Regen through the mud.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

I don't think this is going to happen. Too many of us have tested the state of the current changes and shown that the set is performing "better" at standard content than it did before, and equally with their DPS hitch when it comes to singular targeting. It would be better to look for areas to improve the direction things are at right now then trying to drag the -Regen through the mud.

You're missing the point. The equivalent -regen can be anywhere in the pets, but the main thing is, key factors should NOT be tied in the MM attacks. One of the best things about MMs, is if you choose you can skip them, and do a playstyle actually focused on the pets and busier support sets. This is an area that really takes a hit on that, especially given the MM end costs. The MM attacks, should be worthwhile on their own outright, but not key to the set for something like the -regen that used to be in the bots attacks.

 

Again, merge it between all of the pets, end up with less -regen overall that what is on live which is going to happen anyway, but do not change it to the MM attacks INSTEAD of the bots.

[Sir Myshkin]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Again, merge it between all of the pets, end up with less -regen overall that what is on live which is going to happen anyway, but do not change it to the MM attacks INSTEAD of the bots.

 

Back peddle a little to what I said before: The removal of the -Regen does not impact the current state of performance on Beta when compared to the Live version on a singular target. I can achieve the same performance time against an "even con AV" on Beta as I can on Live simply due to the DPS shift and attack assortment increase, no inclusion or use of the MM Rifle Attacks in either case.

 

Including the -Regen in the MM rifle attacks is more a courtesy I daresay than it is a necessity at the moment because it is giving the option of having that additional bump which would in fact increase performance for the Beta conditions. You can choose to skip the MM attacks and go about life in exactly the same state of mind as before, or you can take one, two, or three of them going forward and perform better than you did in the past.

 

 

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Back peddle a little to what I said before: The removal of the -Regen does not impact the current state of performance on Beta when compared to the Live version on a singular target. I can achieve the same performance time against an "even con AV" on Beta as I can on Live simply due to the DPS shift and attack assortment increase, no inclusion or use of the MM Rifle Attacks in either case.

 

Including the -Regen in the MM rifle attacks is more a courtesy I daresay than it is a necessity at the moment because it is giving the option of having that additional bump which would in fact increase performance for the Beta conditions. You can choose to skip the MM attacks and go about life in exactly the same state of mind as before, or you can take one, two, or three of them going forward and perform better than you did in the past.

 

 

Even con solo maybe. On a team, higher con (esp got reischman), that -regen plays a LOT more of a factor than any dps increase from live. Again, even with it lowered from what it can do on live, the end result is still much more valued in the pets, than forcing it into the attacks and losing it on those that would prefer to skip the attacks. It's the same -regen overall anywho in that scenario. Again, it's about not forcing those attacks for the effect.

[Biske]

I'm not sure I follow that logic either.  If they do as you suggest and instead make the personal attacks super powerful while bringing the pet damage in line, the same people complaining about the regen will just complain that the personal attacks are now mandatory instead.