Focused Feedback: Fiery Melee Revamp

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

So my question is why is Breath of Fire doing damage on par with a T9 Nuke.?  It seems way too excessive. 

I mean, it's a lot of damage, but it's over the course of 45 seconds...

In a set where the only real gimmick is MOAR DAMAGE.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Lazarillo

[WindDemon21]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:37 PM, The Curator said:

Combustion

• Cast Time lowered from 3 seconds to 2.4 seconds.

Front the damage too like short circuit if this was not done yet already too. And for the LOVE OF GOD, swap this in for breath of fire on non-tanks. Breath of fire is horrible with its radius/range, it never should have been there instead of combustion. The set needs aoe. Combustion should be there, not BoF. Time and time again, the lack of aoe for the set relying solely on fire sword circle keeps me abandoning my fire melee scrappers.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

1.  AE lists the DoT as 46 not 45 ticks.

2.  An Elite Boss at 50 for this power does according to AE:

 

Average damage:  205.83

Damage per activation time:  77.09

Damage per cast cycle:   26.84

 

 

To give this more perspective, the T9 in the melee set(Greater Fire Sword) which is a single target does:

 

Average damage: 104.22

Damage per activation time: 76.08

Damage per cast cycle: 14.14

 

 

So my question is why is Breath of Fire doing damage on par with a T9 Nuke.?  It seems way too excessive.  And I said this in another thread which was disputed but its true:  Multiple mobs using this power mean that the 45(46 again according to AE) do their ticks in tandem with each other (let's call that a stacking).  That's a rather excessive amount of damage for a pretty commonly used power from not just AE mobs but for lots of mob sets in game.

 

The change to this power seems that someone wants to make this like a Caltrops power with the excessive amount of ticks.  Difference is that caltrops is an area on the ground effect that a player can move out and doesnt have a front loaded damage to the attack either.   Once hit with Breath of Fire, you're essentially guaranteed to take the full 46 ticks and that front loaded damage too.

 

My recommendation:  revert it to what it was before. 

 

There's no need for this to be so high damage at its tier and be a cone aoe.  Its completely imbalanced. While sure players would love to have it for their own purposes to use in game, Seeing players on teams taking literally a constant ticks of damage as they move from mob groups(cot's would be a good example) to mob group perpetually is again, excessive.   

 

 

 

What lives for 45 seconds though? Nearly nothing will take the full damage.

 

Other than that quibble, yeah, why a 45 second duration? It's not a Caltrop effect and nearly nothing will take that damage. CoH is a fast game and upfront damage is desired.

[Sanguinesun]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

What lives for 45 seconds though? Nearly nothing will take the full damage.

 

Other than that quibble, yeah, why a 45 second duration? It's not a Caltrop effect and nearly nothing will take that damage. CoH is a fast game and upfront damage is desired.

 

You're looking at it from a player to mob perspective.  Dont forget the reverse with say 5 CoT/Carni  breath of fire applied to you as your group moves between each group.  As you say your group will move fast but you'll still be taking all those 46 ticks of damage in tandem from each source well after they're dead.  That's part of the concern as it can add up.

[Sovera]

23 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

You're looking at it from a player to mob perspective.  Dont forget the reverse with say 5 CoT/Carni  breath of fire applied to you as your group moves between each group.  As you say your group will move fast but you'll still be taking all those 46 ticks of damage in tandem from each source well after they're dead.  That's part of the concern as it can add up.

 

 

You are quite right. NPCs ought to keep the old Fire Breath.

 

I suppose even for players there is some value in Fire Breath-ing once at the start of the fight (rather like the nuke you compare it to) and then ignore the power until the next spawn. Though I think players would rather have Fire Breath get the Frost treatment (I mean, I'm a player, so I count, right?).

[KaizenSoze]

8 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

 

On the mission maker right this second.

 

It can be set to 100% for Bosses and EB's too without taking any sword attacks but you're going to need to take aim/buildups on both prim/sec to get there.

Here is the boss from my AE mission on beta. It has 100% experience without build up. The secret sauce is to use super reflexes as the secondary.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[aethereal]

The 45 second Fire Breath is presumably interesting against AVs/GMs, too, where you can get most/all of its damage in.

 

I agree that the dynamics are very different when it's player versus mob (expectation is that most mobs will live far less than 45 second from start of engagement) than when it's mob vs player or pvp (expectation is that most players will live far more than 45 seconds from start it engagement).

 

If fire breath does become a specialty AV-killing tool, it would be nice to have some clear hint as to when its DoT is over and it's useful to reapply.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

The 45 second Fire Breath is presumably interesting against AVs/GMs, too, where you can get most/all of its damage in.

 

I agree that the dynamics are very different when it's player versus mob (expectation is that most mobs will live far less than 45 second from start of engagement) than when it's mob vs player or pvp (expectation is that most players will live far more than 45 seconds from start it engagement).

 

If fire breath does become a specialty AV-killing tool, it would be nice to have some clear hint as to when its DoT is over and it's useful to reapply.

 

Does it's old and new ticks not stack?

 

If it becomes a nice AOE and a good ST for AVs, that sounds awesome and at least sounds like the DPS improvement for the set besides GFS getting a shorter animation

[aethereal]

4 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Does it's old and new ticks not stack?

Patch notes say it's non-stacking, haven't tested personally.

[aethereal]

This is the Scrapper detailed info for Breath of fire at chargen.

 

It implies that the 45 second fire damage ticks are only with Fiery Embrace.  Is that correct?

 

EDIT:

 

Just tested, you definitely get the 45 ticks of DoT without Fiery Embrace.  So I think there's maybe a detailed info display bug?

 

What I'm actually trying to test is the crit behavior of BoF for Scrappers and Stalkers, haven't had a chance to yet.  I assume the 45 seconds of DoT don't get an up-front crit, but I don't know what the crit behavior is/is supposed to be.

Edited October 7, 2022 by aethereal

[BrandX]

Fire Breath lost all changes, no idea why, was contemplating a build with it, if FB turns into a good ST DPS attack.  Felt like one could make a non sword build (except for possibly fire sword circle for the pbaoe)

[Sovera]

14 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Fire Breath lost all changes, no idea why, was contemplating a build with it, if FB turns into a good ST DPS attack.  Felt like one could make a non sword build (except for possibly fire sword circle for the pbaoe)

 

Enemies also had Fire Breath. While it did not stack from the same source it did from different sources so it was an endless spam of numbers lasting 45 seconds.

[InvaderStych]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:06 AM, aethereal said:

So I think there's maybe a detailed info display bug?

 

FWIW, there are a ton of places in melee set descriptions/detailed info displays with wildly inaccurate "Only using Firey Embrace" text.

[Zephiyo]

Here's my thoughts about changes after making and using several builds in the Beta...
 

---Set as a whole---

Fire Melee does almost as much DPS as Energy Melee and Street Justice -- I think it should do a tad more than other sets.

Energy Melee(Stalker) has tons of stuns while out-DPSing fire.
Street Justice(Scrapper) has -res, -def, knockup, stuns, -dmg debuffs and still will out-DPS fire.

I suggest increasing the DoT duration of Fire Melee attacks by a few seconds, and/or adding some -regen since burns are hard to heal. This would make it more thematic and push its damage to be on par with the highest DPS melees.

Fire Melee's only specialty is more damage which doesn't show when it's outperformed by sets that also pack debuffs.

 

---Breath of Fire---

I have never found this power useful on any Arctype at level 50.

1. The animation is painfully long, cancelling out any usefulness of its damage. I would much rather use some SingleTarget while waiting for another Fire Sword Circle to come up.

2. Breath's short range and narrow cone leaves me no desire to waste a power slot and a few bubbles. It doesn't feel good to have to move back to make use of the cone.

 

Some things to mix/match that would make Breath attractive to use at level 50:

1. Have triple the arc (which probably doesn't fit the theme too well).

2. Have a super low animation time, like 0.5s (but high endurance cost to make up for it). This would allow your mouth to be spewing out fire effects AS you attack with your unused hands (this would be unique and really neat to see).

3. Have a pretty strong -regen effect, like -300% for 10s. This would make it useful against EBs/AVs but not too strong against hordes.

4. Be a single target attack that has some sort of useful DPA(Damage Per Animation) to it.

 

Whether or not the end result damage numbers are changed, I very strongly recommend increasing the amount of damage ticks on Breath.

It gives way more dopamine to see x10 ticks of 10 damage than to see x4 ticks of 25 damage (see Ignite from Assault Rifle).

 

---Stalker Fire Melee---

Due to Scrapper ATOs and Stalkers missing out on Incinerate, my scrapper appears to be hitting higher SingleTarget numbers than my stalker with a similar build.

I suggest removing Breath on Stalker and adding Incinerate unless Breath is made into a SingleTarget attack. This would make Stalker the King of SingleTarget damage as they should be.

 

Greater Fire Sword is a 13s cooldown on Stalker. This should be brought down to 12 seconds because:

1. Greater Fire Sword is 12 seconds cooldown on every other melee arctype.

2. The 1 additional second hardly means anything in level 50 content so it's really not a groundbreaking buff.

3. Most powers in the game (with a few exceptions like claws/savage) have an even number on their cooldown. Making it 12 seconds would be consistent with design.

 

 

Thanks for the work y'all are doin'! Power Set adjustments are by far my favorite content updates.

 

Edit:
As it stands currently, Greater Fire Sword can cause high pitch stacking audio by sheathing/drawing repeatedly.

The sound is already on the cast therefore it should be removed from the draw. Otherwise, if you use it just before it comes up, you get the exact same sound twice.

This will also protect ears from the high pitch audio stacking if someone is having too much fun spamming the weapon draw sound.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Zephiyo

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Zephiyo said:

Here's my thoughts about changes after making and using several builds in the Beta...
 

---Set as a whole---

Fire Melee does almost as much DPS as Energy Melee and Street Justice -- I think it should do a tad more than other sets.

Energy Melee(Stalker) has tons of stuns while out-DPSing fire.
Street Justice(Scrapper) has -res, -def, knockup, stuns, -dmg debuffs and still will out-DPS fire.

I suggest increasing the DoT duration of Fire Melee attacks by a few seconds, and/or adding some -regen since burns are hard to heal. This would make it more thematic and push its damage to be on par with the highest DPS melees.

Fire Melee's only specialty is more damage which doesn't show when it's outperformed by sets that also pack debuffs.

 

---Breath of Fire---

I have never found this power useful on any Arctype at level 50.

1. The animation is painfully long, cancelling out any usefulness of its damage. I would much rather use some SingleTarget while waiting for another Fire Sword Circle to come up.

2. Breath's short range and narrow cone leaves me no desire to waste a power slot and a few bubbles. It doesn't feel good to have to move back to make use of the cone.

 

Some things to mix/match that would make Breath attractive to use at level 50:

1. Have triple the arc (which probably doesn't fit the theme too well).

2. Have a super low animation time, like 0.5s (but high endurance cost to make up for it). This would allow your mouth to be spewing out fire effects AS you attack with your unused hands (this would be unique and really neat to see).

3. Have a pretty strong -regen effect, like -300% for 10s. This would make it useful against EBs/AVs but not too strong against hordes.

4. Be a single target attack that has some sort of useful DPA(Damage Per Animation) to it.

 

Whether or not the end result damage numbers are changed, I very strongly recommend increasing the amount of damage ticks on Breath.

It gives way more dopamine to see x10 ticks of 10 damage than to see x4 ticks of 25 damage (see Ignite from Assault Rifle).

 

---Stalker Fire Melee---

Due to Scrapper ATOs and Stalkers missing out on Incinerate, my scrapper appears to be hitting higher SingleTarget numbers than my stalker with a similar build.

I suggest removing Breath on Stalker and adding Incinerate unless Breath is made into a SingleTarget attack. This would make Stalker the King of SingleTarget damage as they should be.

 

Greater Fire Sword is a 13s cooldown on Stalker. This should be brought down to 12 seconds because:

1. Greater Fire Sword is 12 seconds cooldown on every other melee arctype.

2. The 1 additional second hardly means anything in level 50 content so it's really not a groundbreaking buff.

3. Most powers in the game (with a few exceptions like claws/savage) have an even number on their cooldown. Making it 12 seconds would be consistent with design.

 

 

Thanks for the work y'all are doin'! Power Set adjustments are by far my favorite content updates.

 

As I posted earlier, I didn't see the idea of -Defense helping damage other than switching out one of the many damage procs one can slot for a -Resist one.  The -Regen idea seems interesting. 

 

In fact, the -Regen for Fire Breath like you suggested, would give it a reason for me to pick it up besides just trying to fit it in, because I like the animation.  Long animation and all.  However, as you said the big -Regen makes it a great big ST attack while keeping the use as AOE for the lesser enemies.

 

Then increase or add DoT to all the others, as then it's doing what Fire Melee is supposed to be doing...more damage.  May even be able to take back the -Def.

[SomeGuy]

Whoah, these changes make Fiery Melee leap frog to the top of ST DPS. I'm averaging less than a minute against a pylon with this build:

 

 

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Sword -- HO:Nucle(A), Dmg-I(9), Empty(11), TchofDth-Dam%(13), GldStr-%Dam(15)
Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Inexhaustible -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 4: Environmental Modification -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(5), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(5)
Level 6: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), AdjTrg-Rchg(7), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(7), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(48), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(48), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 10: Adaptation
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Ablative Carapace -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(17), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(17), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Prv-Heal/Rchg(23), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(25)
Level 18: Fire Sword Circle -- SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(A), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 20: Evolving Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(27), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(45), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 26: Incinerate -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), TchofDth-Dam%(40), GldStr-%Dam(43)
Level 28: DNA Siphon -- Obl-%Dam(A), Obl-Dmg(29), Obl-Acc/Rchg(29), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(42), RedFrt-Def(42)
Level 32: Greater Fire Sword -- HO:Nucle(A), Hct-Dmg(33), Hct-Dam%(33), TchofDth-Dam%(33), Empty(34), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(34)
Level 35: Genetic Contamination -- HO:Nucle(A), Arm-Dmg(36), Arm-Dam%(36), Erd-%Dam(36), Obl-%Dam(37), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(37)
Level 38: Parasitic Aura -- DctWnd-Rchg(A), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx(39), DctWnd-Heal(39), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(39), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Zapp -- HO:Nucle(A), Apc-Dmg(45), Apc-Dam%(46), Dcm-Build%(46), StnoftheM-Dam%(46), GldJvl-Dam%(40)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Dmg(47), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(47), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(49)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(49), Rct-ResDam%(49)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(15), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 10: Defensive Adaptation
Level 10: Efficient Adaptation
Level 10: Offensive Adaptation
Level 14: Double Jump
Level 49: Quick Form
------------

 
 

 

 

I knew the fact the set was going to be able to take the -RES procs would be huge, but I didn't see HOW huge. Cycling GFS-Snipe-Inc-GFS-FS-Inc repeat for my chain. If this was the intention, well, they did it. If not, I don't have a solution? Maybe change back (or change the ratio?) of the damage type of the attacks?

 

 

edit: Done a lot more runs. I'm averaging in the 1:10s now. Maybe my first batch of runs were RNG heavy.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by SomeGuy

[aethereal]

Heavy use of -res procs has outsized effects on Pylons that aren't very indicative of performance in other areas.

[SomeGuy]

5 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Heavy use of -res procs has outsized effects on Pylons that aren't very indicative of performance in other areas.

 

*sigh*

 

We have very few static ways to measure the performance of a set in this game. Optimizing your performance against a pylon absolutely transfers to your play in the rest of the game. There are a lot of reasons I can take the same builds I use for pylon times and solo any TF I want in the game (new ITF excluded, haven't done it yet). Yes, this includes Apex, Tin, and LGTF. And FSC also takes a -RES proc.

 

-RES applies to EVERYTHING you hit in this game. It is an absolute force multiplier. Every *thing* on your team/league now does more damage to that target that has -RES applied. Full 8 man team that is very pet heavy? All it takes is one stack of a -RES proc that is 20% for that to be absolutely encounter changing in terms of damage received on that target.

 

I am VERY glad the set is getting the love it absolutely needed cause I thematically have always liked FM, but man, this is a lot.

Edited October 11, 2022 by SomeGuy

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

 

*sigh*

 

We have very few static ways to measure the performance of a set in this game. Optimizing your performance against a pylon absolutely transfers to your play in the rest of the game. There are a lot of reasons I can take the same builds I use for pylon times and solo any TF I want in the game (new ITF excluded, haven't done it yet). Yes, this includes Apex, Tin, and LGTF. And FSC also takes a -RES proc.

 

-RES applies to EVERYTHING you hit in this game. It is an absolute force multiplier.

 

If you routinely fight a lot of +0 foes, then sure, sort of.  But the proc that increases your damage by 20% against a pylon increases your damage by 9.6% against a +4 enemy, 13% against a +3 enemy.

 

Against normal spawns, you don't get the -res on the alpha strike that kills the majority of minions and does a significant amount of damage to the lieutenants (or kills them).

 

 

Pylon tests certainly have their place.  But specifically -res procs are more effective against pylons than they are against most other hard targets, and more effective against hard targets than they are against normal spawns.

[ExeErdna]

From my time playing FM the REAL buff it want is give it Inferno and Hot Feet we all know it's true, yet it ain't happening. Since I'll rebuild my Tanker right now if it did. To be real I didn't have much problems out of the set outside of Combustion is too slow to be that weak and Breath of Fire is too narrow for being also slow. If Hot Feet were in that place of Combustion then I could slot the tanker ATO's for the minor absorb proc in a consistent power that'll be in melee.

[Zephiyo]

8 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Whoah, these changes make Fiery Melee leap frog to the top of ST DPS. I'm averaging less than a minute against a pylon with this build:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Sword -- HO:Nucle(A), Dmg-I(9), Empty(11), TchofDth-Dam%(13), GldStr-%Dam(15)
Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Inexhaustible -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 4: Environmental Modification -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(5), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(5)
Level 6: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), AdjTrg-Rchg(7), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(7), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(48), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(48), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 10: Adaptation
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Ablative Carapace -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(17), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(17), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Prv-Heal/Rchg(23), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(25)
Level 18: Fire Sword Circle -- SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(A), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 20: Evolving Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(27), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(45), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 26: Incinerate -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), TchofDth-Dam%(40), GldStr-%Dam(43)
Level 28: DNA Siphon -- Obl-%Dam(A), Obl-Dmg(29), Obl-Acc/Rchg(29), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(42), RedFrt-Def(42)
Level 32: Greater Fire Sword -- HO:Nucle(A), Hct-Dmg(33), Hct-Dam%(33), TchofDth-Dam%(33), Empty(34), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(34)
Level 35: Genetic Contamination -- HO:Nucle(A), Arm-Dmg(36), Arm-Dam%(36), Erd-%Dam(36), Obl-%Dam(37), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(37)
Level 38: Parasitic Aura -- DctWnd-Rchg(A), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx(39), DctWnd-Heal(39), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(39), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Zapp -- HO:Nucle(A), Apc-Dmg(45), Apc-Dam%(46), Dcm-Build%(46), StnoftheM-Dam%(46), GldJvl-Dam%(40)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Dmg(47), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(47), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(49)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(49), Rct-ResDam%(49)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(15), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 10: Defensive Adaptation
Level 10: Efficient Adaptation
Level 10: Offensive Adaptation
Level 14: Double Jump
Level 49: Quick Form
------------

 
 

 

 

I knew the fact the set was going to be able to take the -RES procs would be huge, but I didn't see HOW huge. Cycling GFS-Snipe-Inc-GFS-FS-Inc repeat for my chain. If this was the intention, well, they did it. If not, I don't have a solution? Maybe change back (or change the ratio?) of the damage type of the attacks?

 

 

edit: Done a lot more runs. I'm averaging in the 1:10s now. Maybe my first batch of runs were RNG heavy.

 

 

Two well-respected 4star content runner friends of mine say Katana/Bio gets 1min pylon runs with -res procs (though I don't have the experience personally).

So really that's nothing special for fire melee now that it has -res procs.

I imagine if EM could get -res it'd be a solid 40-50 second pylon drop.

 

Pylon benchmark is skewed with debuffs due to the purple patch. This is why Masterminds can Pylon in like 40 seconds but drop a level 54 EB slower than even a sentinel (pre this buff). Matter of fact, the purple patch is why Mastermind pets are basically useless when you're fighting +4 +5 and +6 enemies. Against a +4 your Minion pets are 15% effective. 15% out of 100%.

 

That being said, -def doesn't really fit with fire melee in my opinion and I think it should be removed because:

1. -Def has pretty much always been on radiation attacks or lethal attacks.

Fire Swords used to be lethal but are now pure fire damage(which I love) and therefore -def breaks the game's power continuity of predictable debuffs from the damage types.

 

2. Fire has always been single-mindedly focused on damage (see Fire Blast, Fire Control, Fire Assault, Fire Anything) rather than some sort of additional modifiers.

Consistency should be sustained with the only exception of possibly adding something useful to Breath of Fire just because it's not good as-is (see my above post).

 

3. Weaker, long animation sets are rescued because of damage procs and -res procs. Fire Melee should not need damage and -res procs to rescue it.

It won't be broken OP because a Kinetics in end-game will make proc builds do double damage while Fire Melees will probably only get a 50% boost or so.

 

4. Fire Melee shouldn't have such easy access to -res debuffs through procs. If its main thing is damage, then it should have a dependency on others for debuffs.

A Fire Melee should be able to get really excited when they see a support in the team that packs a ton of -res.

Furthermore, a support should be able to think to themselves, 'Oh, well I have -res so we'll be perfect together!'

 

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Zephiyo said:

 

Two well-respected 4star content runner friends of mine say Katana/Bio gets 1min pylon runs with -res procs (though I don't have the experience personally).

 

 

They're talking about me BTW.

[electric_emu]

I've messed around with the set a bit, the changes leave the set in a pretty good place.  Especially love the quicker cast time on Combustion, much more satisfying to use! Pure fire damage on the Fire Sword powers is nice too, a great thematic and mechanical change.  However, I agree with what others are saying that the other changes aren't in keeping with the "Fire" theme.

 

Fire's "secondary" characteristic is adding damage and that is consistent in every other Fire-themed powerset.  On live, Fiery Melee accomplishes this with some unimpressive DoT.  So one approach is to just pump the numbers up.  Make Fiery Melee the "Fire Blast" of melee sets, basically.  Very little utility but loads of damage.  Another approach would be to replace Build Up with something like Embrace of Fire from Fiery Assault, but probably restricting its effects to Fiery Melee to avoid the (likely) unwanted buffing of Fiery Aura.

 

And regardless, something needs to be done about Breath of Fire.  I get that every version of it is pretty bad, but it's especially pronounced in Fiery Melee on non-Tankers.  Fire Blast doesn't need the extra AoE and Fiery Assault has other options in primaries and epics.  The simplest change is to just replace it with (new) Combustion on Brutes and Scrappers and possibly Incinerate on Stalkers.  Then just let Gauntlet do the work for Tankers.  

 

Otherwise, it needs something.  A bigger arc or faster cast time, maybe?  A useful debuff?  Maybe just insane damage to compensate for its long cast time and bad AoE.  I could see repurposing it as a toned down Golden Dragonfly/Head Splitter working.  Not quite so much damage since animation suggests a range/arc a lot more forgiving than those powers, but something more or less intended for a single target that can pick up a few more with careful positioning.

 

[WindDemon21]

Breath of fire needs replaced with combustion on non tanks. There is no question on this IMHO.

 

The additional debuffs on some attacks are nice, but I never thought damage was lacking on it's ST but some tweaks were needed. That said, it's the lack of any type of supportive help where I'd find it needed the most improvement outside of combustion swapping for breath.

[Sovera]

-res procs are an easy answer to up damage, but it overinflates results and too many choose to ignore it. On a Tanker two -res shaves a whole minute from a pylon, but is not indicative of the set's power in regular play (and has no impact I could find in clearing missions which is what we do 99% of the time).

 

So slotting a -res for these tests and hitting a pylon of all things is a disservice. I'd not slot any, then compare times from live to beta and stick to those numbers when presenting results.