Hop on over to the beta server to test out some Page 5 power updates!

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, DawL said:

 

(I'm having a hard time getting the quote feature to work, so my apologies).

 

I can't even imagine what a game without farming looks like. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I view farming as doing something over and over to get the same reward. There may be an interest in finding the most efficient way to do so, (and that could lead to discovering bugs or using exploits), but at the end of the day, it's just playing the game. 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I can't even imagine what a game without farming looks like. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I view farming as doing something over and over to get the same reward. There may be an interest in finding the most efficient way to do so, (and that could lead to discovering bugs or using exploits), but at the end of the day, it's just playing the game. 

 

Strictly speaking, yes, but mostly people are using it to specifically mean setting a +4/x8 custom made map that you are particularly suited to soloing and doing that one map over and over. No one cares about farming SBB, nor Hamidon. Just trash in the AE, lmao!

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Strictly speaking, yes, but mostly people are using it to specifically mean setting a +4/x8 custom made map that you are particularly suited to soloing and doing that one map over and over. No one cares about farming SBB, nor Hamidon. Just trash in the AE, lmao!

Yeah exactly - finding the most efficient way to get that reward. 

 

The only thing I don't get is, what about when playing the game is the reward itself? I have easily spent hours, even days of in game time just moving around the various zones across this game world looking for holes in geometry to get out of maps. Absolutely no tangible reward, but I find it fun and relaxing. 

 

Didn't mean to tangent there!

[Wavicle]

21 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah exactly - finding the most efficient way to get that reward. 

 

The only thing I don't get is, what about when playing the game is the reward itself? I have easily spent hours, even days of in game time just moving around the various zones across this game world looking for holes in geometry to get out of maps. Absolutely no tangible reward, but I find it fun and relaxing. 

 

Didn't mean to tangent there!

 

Well, you could be trying to get the Bug Hunter badge, but these days that's best accomplished....on the Beta server, where you can test out some page 5 power updates right now! (see what I did there?)

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Well, you could be trying to get the Bug Hunter badge, but these days that's best accomplished....on the Beta server, where you can test out some page 5 power updates right now! (see what I did there?)

😁

 

[DawL]

29 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Strictly speaking, yes, but mostly people are using it to specifically mean setting a +4/x8 custom made map that you are particularly suited to soloing and doing that one map over and over. No one cares about farming SBB, nor Hamidon. Just trash in the AE, lmao!

SBB is probably one of my favorites, but it sucks that it's limited to only 4 people. Hamidon is farmed MANY times a day, for the emps and merits and for some people (yay, me Saturday night), a gamble for a microfilament. And hey, when soloing a map in the AE, you don't have to worry about dealing with rude or insulting people.

[Wavicle]

Yea, I just meant the “complaints” about farming are in regards to the AE trash mobs, not Hami or the God Champion.

[Riverdusk]

Only thing that bugs me about farming sometimes is all the begging for it on the LFG channel.  I'd suggest a farming channel, but then people would probably just spam both, so nevermind. 😄

[DawL]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Yea, I just meant the “complaints” about farming are in regards to the AE trash mobs, not Hami or the God Champion.

I don't understand why there are complaints. What difference does it make if someone speed-runs SBBs and ITFs, or sits in a farm setting things on fire, as long as they are having fun and contributing in a positive way to the community. 

[flakoff]

Even testing on beta we all know fire attacks will keep the -def.

We know Ig will still be worse even after "testing".

We know it will be harder again to farm.

If only the devs would just say the truth,  they are trying to stop farming. 

Unless it's toting or similar of course.

I personally am rubbish at playing the market so farming is my way to afford stuff.

Even the new hard mode excludes those that don't  have certain builds.

Rant over 🙂

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, DawL said:

I don't understand why there are complaints. What difference does it make if someone speed-runs SBBs and ITFs, or sits in a farm setting things on fire, as long as they are having fun and contributing in a positive way to the community. 

 

Answer: ego in the form of elitism. A certain segment of the player base and devs just cannot stand that people enjoy playing a way that is different from how they believe others should play.

 

1 hour ago, flakoff said:

Even testing on beta we all know fire attacks will keep the -def.

We know Ig will still be worse even after "testing".

We know it will be harder again to farm.

If only the devs would just say the truth,  they are trying to stop farming. 

Unless it's toting or similar of course.

I personally am rubbish at playing the market so farming is my way to afford stuff.

Even the new hard mode excludes those that don't  have certain builds.

Rant over 🙂

 

The best answer to the anti farming segment of HC is to:

 

1. Farm more.... ALOT more, and with 7 ppl  invited to join you.

2. Teach others how to farm and encourage them to farm more. 

3.  Find new, more improved methods to farm via builds and farm making in the AE and if push comes to shove, non AE sources too (like in the old days before AE actually).

4.  Make transparent on the forums and elsewhere the best builds and farms and other relevant information.

5.  Make streams and vids of doing it etc.  Get others to come to the game and enjoy doing it.

 

And more. (Not even touched the market side on this for example....)

 

In other words, the best way to counter their agenda is to do the opposite of what they want.... 1000 fold.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[Glacier Peak]

Well there are two opinions from two different posters that I don't agree with.

 

Good to know though!

[Ruin Mage]

https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

This is the Gold Standard Tester Discord. 

It is an unofficial-official Discord that serves as the place for the Alpha / "Closed Beta" section of testing. It also allows for those who WISH to test to engage with the Devs in a better format than the forums, but that's personal opinion. Either way, the point of me dropping the invite is this: Any one of you can help test the changes that MAY be coming or may just be experiments. What sort of stuff is coming is left into that Discord until it hits Brainstorm - where it is considered Open Beta. 

There are 20+ people on average testing each page or experimental changes. It would be nice for that to grow! However, as N6 has said in other threads, the process is opt-in. It's entirely optional if you want to test these things before the wider audience gets their hands on them. So it is on you at this point to join up or not.

Reposting since Troll Troo hid his thread which had the invite link.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Shadeknight

[shatterpoint]

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

The only thing I don't get is, what about when playing the game is the reward itself?

That was abandoned long ago. This is a factory.

I got asked on a TF why I didn't have Team Teleport. I told them I didn't have the cash. I was told:

"Pharm moar"

Everyone LOL'd.

PLAY the game? Why? Basic XP is crap. Do double XP for no influence. Need influence...well they have that mapped out too. Sell X, Y or Z for big bucks. All the build guides have high end Enhancers. How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. You will NOT get it by playing the game itself. New players MUST get into the factory mind or do without. There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. 

[MoonSheep]

5 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Answer: ego in the form of elitism. A certain segment of the player base and devs just cannot stand that people enjoy playing a way that is different from how they believe others should play.

 

 

The best answer to the anti farming segment of HC is to:

 

1. Farm more.... ALOT more, and with 7 ppl  invited to join you.

2. Teach others how to farm and encourage them to farm more. 

3.  Find new, more improved methods to farm via builds and farm making in the AE and if push comes to shove, non AE sources too (like in the old days before AE actually).

4.  Make transparent on the forums and elsewhere the best builds and farms and other relevant information.

5.  Make streams and vids of doing it etc.  Get others to come to the game and enjoy doing it.

 

And more. (Not even touched the market side on this for example....)

 

In other words, the best way to counter their agenda is to do the opposite of what they want.... 1000 fold.

 

 

 

u okay hun?

[Coyotedancer]

11 minutes ago, shatterpoint said:

How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. 

 

Heh. If you really want to make INF by the bucket... no. You don't farm. You marketeer.  Those players make us farmers look like second-rate hobos.

 

Head down to the Market forum and read a few of the guides. You can play converter bingo with the drops you get in regular play and never have to set foot in a farm.

[shatterpoint]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Heh. If you really want to make INF by the bucket... no. You don't farm. You marketeer.  Those players make us farmers look like second-rate hobos.

 

Head down to the Market forum and read a few of the guides. You can play converter bingo with the drops you get in regular play and never have to set foot in a farm.

Point proven.

[Glacier Peak]

29 minutes ago, shatterpoint said:

That was abandoned long ago. This is a factory.

I got asked on a TF why I didn't have Team Teleport. I told them I didn't have the cash. I was told:

"Pharm moar"

Everyone LOL'd.

PLAY the game? Why? Basic XP is crap. Do double XP for no influence. Need influence...well they have that mapped out too. Sell X, Y or Z for big bucks. All the build guides have high end Enhancers. How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. You will NOT get it by playing the game itself. New players MUST get into the factory mind or do without. There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. 

Hey that is a neat opinion. I think you are using some exaggeration to get your point across, so I won't be facetious with you. This is a game, not a factory. Or, this is a Wendy's...? 

 

Thank you for the post though!

[shatterpoint]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Hey that is a neat opinion. I think you are using some exaggeration to get your point across, so I won't be facetious with you. This is a game, not a factory. Or, this is a Wendy's...? 

 

Thank you for the post though!

No problem. Happy to help. I do not mind pointing out that for new players, playing normally has no reward whatsoever.

 

EDIT: I've had this discussion in game with many new players who ask questions. They want to know how to go about doing things generically. I do my best to point them in that direction. Want influence? Don't expect it from playing generically. It is not there. Want to progress at the generic rate? The 'game' doesn't like that. It takes forever. General, LFG and Help chats are very helpful in shoving characters toward what is now the 'normal'...farming. Joining 'the factory'.

I'm sorry you don't like the answer. Its just a simple truth. That's fine. It is what it is. As per the post I originally quoted...its not about playing THE GAME. Its about being shoved into the factory aspect this thing has become.

Edited October 10, 2022 by shatterpoint

[roleki]

I've always found it kind of funny that the forums would have you believe a handful of dirty AE farmers are ruining the game, spending their ill-gotten gains like they are drunken sailors and luring innocent noobs into the backs of their non-descript vans, where they proceed to deflower them before turning them loose on the streets, uneducated and nude, to ruin the wholesome fun of the Right People. 

 

Then you get into the game and it's ALL farming, all the time.  DFB and ITF, PI Radios, MSR, Hami, it's all farming.

 

ToT crashes the servers regularly.  Someone told me I was in PI4 last night, and I believe them.  Hint: those people aren't converging on one spot on the map because they are looking for a deep and satisfying story, or want to get lost in the thrill of incremental advancement.

 

I really wish the people that have the keys to this thing would look around and realize what they have, instead of wasting time trying to make it conform to what a small group of people wish it was.  

 

The fucked up thing is, it still IS what that small group of players wish it was.  They just can't live in a world where other people find their shit boring as all hell and not worth pursuing.

[scottocamp]

3 hours ago, shatterpoint said:

No problem. Happy to help. I do not mind pointing out that for new players, playing normally has no reward whatsoever.

 

 

To be fair – it is much more complicated than you are presenting.  You can play the game normally and still be able to afford top end enhancements within a reasonable time frame.  And it is generally rather fun going that route for a few toons.  But it is obviously a much slower route.  The “problem” is that this game offers a rather infinite number of power combinations – so that you are always tempted to create a new character.  And of course you need top end enhancements for your new character, because – well, just because.  And you need the team transporters and the catalysts and the boosters and on and on.  The lure of creating new alts is the factory grind you speak of.  When I played SWTOR for a while, I felt no compulsion to create dozens of alts.  They all played pretty much the same any way.  But in this game the grass is *always* greener elsewhere and I am always wanting to try something new.  Often I want to roll many, many new alts right now.  (I had my mind made up not to bother putting together a Battle Axe melee character because Battle Axe seemed so similar to Broad Sword & Mace.  But with Page 5, now I will have to create a Battle Axe character.  Sigh….)   So in my opinion, the factory grind is mostly self-imposed.

But there is certainly a tension (perhaps an escalating tension) in this game between those who want an easier path to creating and outfitting and playing lots and lots of alts and those who want the game progression to be tighter, more rigorous, more interactive with other members of the community and more “normal game-centric”.  And as you correctly note – it is now much easier to progress your alts on the fringes of the game.  Using converters to flip enhancements and running customized AE missions.  In my mind the obvious solution is to make the normal game rewards much, much better.  I run Tin Mage & Apex because it is fun *and* because it helps character progression.  There are not that many in-game missions where the reward is worth the effort if my sole goal is getting a new alt fully equipped.  I also run SBB and the Heather Townsend arc.  But not a whole lot else.  Adding reward merits to incarnate offerings like BAF is a very nice step in the right direction.

The frustration that seems to be boiling over is that excitement over creating a new alt (like a new Battle Axe brute) is bumping up against changes to the game that appear to be designed to slow the progression of that new alt.  I’m not personally convinced progression is being slowed all that dramatically but there are a lot of folks that obviously feel this is true.  Gutting fringe activities like AE fire farms without providing a comparable in-game reward replacement will be quite frustrating if you just want that Battle Axe toon now.  Now there is obviously a group here that feels nothing in-game should be easy.  Progression to 50 and the acquisition of the best enhancements should involve suffering and pain.  That seems silly to me.  Why make a game feel like work?  But I do sympathize with the position that AE and playing the market are pulling folks out of shared community activities.  I would much rather run missions with other folks than flip enhancements ad nauseam.  Making progression to 50 and the acquisition of all the goodies needed easier with way better in-game rewards won’t lessen my desire to play the game.  There will always be another alt to try.  But it will keep me involved with community play rather than grinding solo.

Removing the AE building from Atlas is not going to really address the fact that peripheral activities are more rewarding than in-game activities.  And taking a hammer to those peripheral activities without making in-game rewards enticing will just frustrate the population segment that has played this game for years and years and now just wants to try out new combinations.  On live I had multiple toons with all but 2 or 3 badges and who had run every single Ouro mission hero and villain side.  I just don’t have the desire to do that anymore.  But I am very excited to play the new Symphony Control – once I get through the half dozen alts in the queue ahead of that alt.  My advice would be to keep all the crazy broken powers, add new crazy powers, make pool powers even better, add even more procs, add even more power sets, add even more purple sets, make progression super easy – BUT rework the rewards so that we play with one another rather pushing a mouse button over and over solo.  Which in my mind means really, really, really good rewards for in-game and team play.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, shatterpoint said:

That was abandoned long ago. This is a factory.

I got asked on a TF why I didn't have Team Teleport. I told them I didn't have the cash. I was told:

"Pharm moar"

Everyone LOL'd.

PLAY the game? Why? Basic XP is crap. Do double XP for no influence. Need influence...well they have that mapped out too. Sell X, Y or Z for big bucks. All the build guides have high end Enhancers. How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. You will NOT get it by playing the game itself. New players MUST get into the factory mind or do without. There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. 

this is nonsense.

[shatterpoint]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

this is nonsense.

prove it

 

Make an AT. Do NOT use XP boost. Do NOT engage in repeating TFs over and over and over. Do not play the market. Just missions at regular XP levels. No AE.

Edited October 10, 2022 by shatterpoint

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, shatterpoint said:

prove it

The existence of my toons with their loot proves it.

[shatterpoint]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The existence of my toons with their loot proves it.

LOL