Hop on over to the beta server to test out some Page 5 power updates!

[Astralock]

20 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Not to get too off topic, as this was being discussed in other posts. But the short version of it is, is there are some people whom feel the same group of people who push for some changes seem to get it, while others who do the same do not. I hesitate to use the words favoritism or bias, because A) we only see half the picture and not the whole, B) there are many, many of us, and precious few staff members. So addressing each and every person 1 by 1 would be a full time job, and isn't realistic in expectations. C) Having once been a staff member elsewhere in a similar environment, I will say even if there is no bias there will always be the suspicion and is difficult to disapprove once that atmosphere sets in.

 

In short, after speaking to others there is a part of the community that said it feels to some that the "pro-endgame teaming" folks are the ones who seem to push for change and get it. Not the farmers, not the casuals, not the role-players, not the solo-ists, and not the die hard pvp'ers. Some have said even some ATs seem to be favored over others.

 

Two new RP areas were added in Page 4.  The Local channel range change was added after RPers asked for it.  There’s SG base PvP coming, in addition to a host of PvP changes and additions over the past couple of years.  Aethers can be bought and sold via the Black Market for those who don’t want to do Incarnate trials nor hard modes.

 

People are free to believe otherwise, but really that’s on them.

[Number Six]

Quote

Aethers can be bought and sold via the Black Market for those who don’t want to do Incarnate trials nor hard modes.

 

You mean the new shiny we put in to force everybody to run hard modes can be efficiently acquired by *gasp* FARMING?!?!

 

zomg shut it down! Nerf it, nerf it all!!!!!

 

(yes this is sarcasm why do I have to put a disclaimer on these things?)

[Widower]

17 minutes ago, Number Six said:

(yes this is sarcasm why do I have to put a disclaimer on these things?)

Confirmation bias, mostly.

[Troo]

47 minutes ago, Number Six said:

(yes this is sarcasm why do I have to put a disclaimer on these things?)

 

cause we gotz feelins

-and-

my energy melee/regeneration soul suffers nerfin shell shock

[Neiska]

59 minutes ago, Number Six said:

(yes this is sarcasm why do I have to put a disclaimer on these things?)

 

Possibly because some might take that and believe that a staff member mocking critics as an implication, or wonder if a staff member can mock such players in a public forum more astute persons might wonder what is then said in a more private setting.

 

Personally though? I had a chuckle.

[Sanguinesun]

31 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

Two new RP areas were added in Page 4.  The Local channel range change was added after RPers asked for it.  There’s SG base PvP coming, in addition to a host of PvP changes and additions over the past couple of years.  Aethers can be bought and sold via the Black Market for those who don’t want to do Incarnate trials nor hard modes.

 

People are free to believe otherwise, but really that’s on them.

 

27 minutes ago, Number Six said:

 

You mean the new shiny we put in to force everybody to run hard modes can be efficiently acquired by *gasp* FARMING?!?!

 

zomg shut it down! Nerf it, nerf it all!!!!!

 

(yes this is sarcasm why do I have to put a disclaimer on these things?)

 

9 minutes ago, GM Widower said:

Confirmation bias, mostly.

 

Well now it seems that all the ducks are in a row 

      and with all their fowlness in witty tow

So is all the derision, sarcasm, and invalidation just feints

      or are the thems-with-no-stars the sinners and the stars-on-them-thars the saints?

Whether such things apply to Neiska's condemnation

      or play into some sort of bias confirmation

One can't help but find it compelling to mention

      how together the ducks did quack their contention

Perhaps its just all a bantering of words

      but maybe its really just for the birds

The placation is to say its all just a game

      so really what's meant is that its all just the same

 

   

[Bionic_Flea]

5 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

Well now it seems that all the ducks are in a row 

      and with all their fowlness in witty tow

So is all the derision, sarcasm, and invalidation just feints

      or are the thems-with-no-stars the sinners and the stars-on-them-thars the saints?

Whether such things apply to Neiska's condemnation

      or play into some sort of bias confirmation

One can't help but find it compelling to mention

      how together the ducks did quack their contention

Perhaps its just all a bantering of words

      but maybe its really just for the birds

The placation is to say its all just a game

      so really what's meant is that its all just the same

+1 for on the fly poetry.

[Neiska]

5 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

Well now it seems that all the ducks are in a row 

      and with all their fowlness in witty tow

So is all the derision, sarcasm, and invalidation just feints

      or are the thems-with-no-stars the sinners and the stars-on-them-thars the saints?

Whether such things apply to Neiska's condemnation

      or play into some sort of bias confirmation

One can't help but find it compelling to mention

      how together the ducks did quack their contention

Perhaps its just all a bantering of words

      but maybe its really just for the birds

The placation is to say its all just a game

      so really what's meant is that its all just the same

 

[Troo]

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

Two new RP areas were added in Page 4.  The Local channel range change was added after RPers asked for it.  There’s SG base PvP coming, in addition to a host of PvP changes and additions over the past couple of years.  Aethers can be bought and sold via the Black Market for those who don’t want to do Incarnate trials nor hard modes.

 

People are free to believe otherwise, but really that’s on them.

 

And yet, you seem to have forgotten the category of player I omitted on purpose. The people who came to play "City of Heroes," not "a heavily modded CoH server."

 

You see, regardless of the actual changes, the more changes there are, the smaller is the part of the community that will be happy with them. For the people who came to play "City of Heroes" - the more changes there are, the worse it's becoming. And for the rest of the people, likely its win some, loose some. I doubt the majority of players approved of "all" changes, but there is certainly a community that has been against the majority of them, if not "all." And the saying "the more things change, the more the stay the same" no longer applies.

 

Now while we do have to come to terms with no matter what the staff does, change or no change, they can't please everyone. So they do the best they can. Personally, I am fine with fine tuning and rebalancing, even adding entirely new sets as well. But not completely redesigning ATs, Powers, or Sets, namely because for those who come for "City of Heroes" have no options once the things they like are changed or gone.

 

And while we can't cite this expressly the reason for the drop in player count, which in itself all its own topic far too big and complicated to give its due here, I do believe that it would be intellectually dishonest to handwave excessive changes to what was already established within the game had little part in that. And at what point does HC becomes more dissimilar from City of Heroes, than Similar? For some, we have already passed that exit about 10 miles back. For others, we have yet to get there. And neither view is wrong or incorrect. But I would put forth that the people who came to play the City of Heroes they remembered are largely the losers here, no matter any way you slice it.

 

And for clarification, I am not one of the "Veterans of ye olden times," as I never played Live. I am only pointing out that the people who wanted Homecoming to be more resemble COH than change seem to have been missed out entirely in the conversation.

[Astralock]

23 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

And yet, you seem to have forgotten the category of player I omitted on purpose. The people who came to play "City of Heroes," not "a heavily modded CoH server."

 

You see, regardless of the actual changes, the more changes there are, the smaller is the part of the community that will be happy with them. For the people who came to play "City of Heroes" - the more changes there are, the worse it's becoming. And for the rest of the people, likely its win some, loose some. I doubt the majority of players approved of "all" changes, but there is certainly a community that has been against the majority of them, if not "all." And the saying "the more things change, the more the stay the same" no longer applies.

 

Now while we do have to come to terms with no matter what the staff does, change or no change, they can't please everyone. So they do the best they can. Personally, I am fine with fine tuning and rebalancing, even adding entirely new sets as well. But not completely redesigning ATs, Powers, or Sets, namely because for those who come for "City of Heroes" have no options once the things they like are changed or gone.

 

And while we can't cite this expressly the reason for the drop in player count, which in itself all its own topic far too big and complicated to give its due here, I do believe that it would be intellectually dishonest to handwave excessive changes to what was already established within the game had little part in that. And at what point does HC becomes more dissimilar from City of Heroes, than Similar? For some, we have already passed that exit about 10 miles back. For others, we have yet to get there. And neither view is wrong or incorrect. But I would put forth that the people who came to play the City of Heroes they remembered are largely the losers here, no matter any way you slice it.

 

And for clarification, I am not one of the "Veterans of ye olden times," as I never played Live. I am only pointing out that the people who wanted Homecoming to be more resemble COH than change seem to have been missed out entirely in the conversation.

 

Then they have a mistaken impression.  The Rebirth server would be better suited for their needs as they try to keep their game as close to City of Heroes live as possible, but even they have made some pretty substantial changes, including a new AT and additional enhancement slots.  Homecoming never claimed to be an Issue 24 beta museum, as much as some people wish otherwise.  The Homecoming staff want to take the game into their own direction.  Homecoming is Homecoming, not City of Heroes Issue 24.

 

As for the player count, this graph courtesy of macksull shows that the player base has remained relatively stable over the past six months or so.  There's some peaks with the Independence Day weekend and the Page 4 release, but over all it's the same as it ever was.

[Neiska]

9 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

Then they have a mistaken impression.  The Rebirth server would be better suited for their needs as they try to keep their game as close to City of Heroes live as possible, but even they have made some pretty substantial changes, including a new AT and additional enhancement slots.  Homecoming never claimed to be an Issue 24 beta museum, as much as some people wish otherwise.  The Homecoming staff want to take the game into their own direction.  Homecoming is Homecoming, not City of Heroes Issue 24.

 

Thank you for proving my point regarding the perception of the "cool kids" and "everyone else."

 

9 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

As for the player count, this graph courtesy of macksull shows that the player base has remained relatively stable over the past six months or so.  There's some peaks with the Independence Day weekend and the Page 4 release, but over all it's the same as it ever was.

 

I was unaware that only the past 24 weeks mattered with regard to player retention, out of 3 years of being open. That is akin to taking the entire course of recorded human history, zero focusing on a 200 year time period, and basing all of it off that small fraction of time. And this is also neglecting the fact that it is possible (and also impossible to prove or disprove) that we might have kept more and lost less had some changes gone a different way. I am not claiming this is the case, but it certainly is a possibility.

 

And this isn't a "the sky is falling" post. This is merely me pointing out that perhaps things could have gone better, and that regardless no matter what change or if there is change at all, a portion of the player base will feel neglected or slighted. 

[Ruin Mage]

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Thank you for proving my point regarding the perception of the "cool kids" and "everyone else."

What?

He's pointing out that HC never advertised itself as City of Heroes Issue 24. It's been clear from the get-go that they were going to do things differently. There's been no reason to believe that it'd remain dev-locked to Paragon Studios' designs (I point at the AMAs for why this would be a bad thing.) or whatever.

Maybe I missed something, but how does this prove a point?

[roleki]

23 hours ago, Aracknight said:

We literally showed you the rewards for playing normally.

 

Among many, many things, THIS has always confused me: there are a million posts where people complain that The Real Game isn't giving out enough rewards, but as soon as someone uses that as a justification for farming, suddenly The Real Game is so god damned rewarding, people get hernias just by returning to a contact.

 

Is that one of them cakes that's just for lookin' at, or is it the eatin' kind?

[Neiska]

50 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

What?

He's pointing out that HC never advertised itself as City of Heroes Issue 24. It's been clear from the get-go that they were going to do things differently. There's been no reason to believe that it'd remain dev-locked to Paragon Studios' designs (I point at the AMAs for why this would be a bad thing.) or whatever.

Maybe I missed something, but how does this prove a point?

 

First off, I don't claim to speak or represent any group of players. This is merely my own opinions and musings, and repeating the conversations I have had with others ingame, in discord, or here on the forums.

 

My point is, is that people who are against change, including but not limited to - the "ye olden times" veterans, people who simply don't like a change, people who might have been in the beta but was against proposed changes, etc - might feel marginalized, for any number of reasons.

 

1.) As I believe you yourself pointed out, they might not have been involved with the beta. So the first beta feedbacks might be the first time such persons are even made aware of possible changes, they might feel unheard. Now, as yourself pointed out beta is open, not everyone participates in beta either. I am only remarking that once feedbacks are asked for, more often than not changes happen in some form or another. Not "always," but often. 

 

2.) Once things are posted in the beta, the conversations on what should change, how, and so on have already occurred. For those coming in late to the conversation, they speak on matters already progressed past that point. In a sense, they are echoing talking points that might have already occurred, are they not?

 

3.) Not every player even uses the forums. I mean, how often have we heard ingame "where is the atlas AE building" in chat. For some players who don't use the forms at all, and aren't even aware of changes until they go live, such things might be blindsiding them.

 

4.) Then of course, there are players who are against any particular change, speak about it, and the change occurs anyway. If this happens often enough, they might feel that their opinions don't matter one way or another, as things happened irrelevant to their particular input on the matter in question.

 

I am not saying these are factual. I am only highlighting the other side of the conversation. Because, just as those in beta have conversations that others are not involved in, so too do other conversations occur that the beta testers, alpha testers, staff and so on are not privy to either. I am not saying this IS or IS NOT happening. I am only saying this is what such persons think/feel/believe is happening. Some of it I agree with, and some I do not. I am only saying how some people I have spoken to feel on the matter. Many of which state they won't post such on the forums, given how some "naysayers" are reacted to. One person cited the AE farm change discussion as an example why they won't speak out/against, about anything. 

 

TLDR - My point is, is that there are people who, rightly or wrongly, feel their input doesn't matter. From any number of groups. And saying "get involved with the beta" won't change their perception either way.

[Aracknight]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

 

Among many, many things, THIS has always confused me: there are a million posts where people complain that The Real Game isn't giving out enough rewards, but as soon as someone uses that as a justification for farming, suddenly The Real Game is so god damned rewarding, people get hernias just by returning to a contact.

 

Is that one of them cakes that's just for lookin' at, or is it the eatin' kind?

Shatterpoint, who I was responding to, didn't say there weren't enough rewards.  What they said was:

 

" I do not mind pointing out that for new players, playing normally has no reward whatsoever."

 

and

 

"There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. "

 

As this is demonstrably false, that's what I was responding to.  My response wasn't about "enough."  My response was specifically about "at all."

 

While it's nice to get quoted and included, don't misinterpret, willfully or not, what I posted to grind your axe.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Aracknight

[lemming]

38 minutes ago, Neiska said:

My point is, is that people who are against change, including but not limited to - the "ye olden times" veterans, people who simply don't like a change, people who might have been in the beta but was against proposed changes, etc - might feel marginalized, for any number of reasons.

As one of those from way back when in Beta, the game changed pretty drastically from issue 0 to sunset.

 

Some of those changes were great, some needed, some controversial, some WTF and a lot of all of the above and depending on the person, different in their view.

 HC seems to be continuing that trend just fine.

[roleki]

6 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Shatterpoint, who I was responding to, didn't say there weren't enough rewards.  What they said was:

 

" I do not mind pointing out that for new players, playing normally has no reward whatsoever."

 

and

 

"There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. "

 

As this is demonstrably false, that's what I was responding to.  My response wasn't about "enough."  My response was specifically about "at all."

 

While it's nice to get quoted and included, don't misinterpret, willfully or not, what I posted to grind your axe.

 

I suppose I should have said  "I have navigated this thread up and to your response to @shatterpoint in which you appear to have concluded that a couple anecdotal responses about how much wealth people claim they have earned playing through content is sufficient to repudiate @shatterpoint's assertion that regular gameplay is not rewarding enough for new players, but this seems to contradict the equally anecdotal yet far more numerous claims that regular gameplay is not rewarding enough, full stop, and that this dichotomy - that gameplay is both NOT rewarding and VERY rewarding - vexes me because it cannot be both, yet, both interpretations of reality have been used to dissuade others from farming."

Sorry I rubbed your rhubarb there, fella.

[Aracknight]

2 minutes ago, roleki said:

 
Sorry I rubbed your rhubarb there, fella.

 

[roleki]

Spoiler

 

That's TWO lessons.   Never search for a .gif of "This town needs an enema" from your workplace computer.

[Aracknight]

You win bro.

[Starforge]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

The people who came to play "City of Heroes," not "a heavily modded CoH server."

I can't speak for anyone else, but as someone that played on live between 2007 and 2012, I don't wish that evil on anyone. We really do have things pretty damn good here specifically just from a QoL standpoint.

[roleki]

34 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

You win bro.

You're not going to believe this, but I don't think I got enough rewards for this win.

[Aracknight]

15 minutes ago, roleki said:

You're not going to believe this, but I don't think I got enough rewards for this win.

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, Neiska said:

Possibly because some might take that and believe that a staff member mocking critics as an implication, or wonder if a staff member can mock such players in a public forum more astute persons might wonder what is then said in a more private setting.

 

Personally though? I had a chuckle.

Simply ribaldry, nothing more should be thought of it.