Kheldian idea to help with enhancement slot drought

[Emerald Orchid]

tech pondering... which would be more possible? having the kheldian shape shifts modify your human powers into the current form powers, or linking powers together so adding a slot to radiant strike gives you a slot in white dwarf smash? make it so the form powers would suppress set bonuses from their linked powers?
 

	Nova	Dwarf
Gleaming Bolt	bright nova bolt	(available)
Glinting Eye	(available)	white dwarf strike
Gleaming Blast	bright nova blast	(none)
radiant strike	(none)	white dwarf smite
proton scatter	bright nova scatter	(none)
luminous detonation	bright nova detonation	(none)
solar flare	(none)	white dwarf flare
reform essence	(none)	white dwarf sublimation
	Nova	Dwarf
Shadow Bolt	dark nova bolt	(available)
Ebon Eye	(available)	black dwarf strike
Shadow Blast	dark nova blast	(none)
starless step	(none)	black dwarf step
Sunless Mire	(none)	black dwarf mire
Dark Detonation	dark nova detonation	(none)
Gravity Well	(none)	black dwarf smite
Essence Drain	(none)	black dwarf drain
Gravitic Emanation	dark nova emanation	(none)

[Lazarillo]

It presumably can be done, as the Rebirth community did pretty much this very thing with Kheldians in a recent update.

Whether HC feels it is an acceptable solution, or even that Kheldians "need" solving is a bit of a different argument.  Granted, HC's code base is also a little different, but there's reason enough to assume it could be done, even if should or would is not so easy to assume.

[biostem]

The issue is that you get a bunch of powers for free by picking the forms.  The only way I could see this working is if the form itself was a power, and you had to pick the attacks individually - so for instance, taking nova would grant the form with its inherent flight, end recovery bonus, tohit bonus, and damage bonus, but you'd have to pick all the attacks by themselves, which would work in both nova and human form, but only benefit from the extra bonuses while in nova form.

Edited October 22, 2022 by biostem

[kelika2]

my khelds were literally my most complicated builds and respecs

please leave them the fuck alone.  please check base damage on human vs nova attacks

 

With the recent patch about power level selection avail-abilities which does not have a shorthand yet because power level is already taken by something else i HIGHLY suggest you look at an energy blast sentinel or blaster for all your vanity human form needs

[Lazarillo]

36 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

please check base damage on human vs nova attacks

When the solution to every AT imbalance is "buff damage", it stops being a solution.

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

When the solution to every AT imbalance is "buff damage", it stops being a solution.

then why have shapeshifting at all if your plans are to stay in human form all the time?

nova - offense

human - balance

dwarf - survival

 

im not ganna check at this current time because i need like 60 some respecs still but a sentinel can scratch that ranged with armor need

[Wavicle]

Pros and Cons:

 

If you make the forms share slots with the human powers then when you switch forms your attacks will still be recharging if you just used them in the other form.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Pros and Cons:

 

If you make the forms share slots with the human powers then when you switch forms your attacks will still be recharging if you just used them in the other form.

Yeah, but I mean the way it is now you're getting like 8 free powers just by taking the forms, (along with free initial slot they come with).  As annoying as it is, it seems like a fair trade-off to me.  Plus, if you count the multi-function aspect of the forms, you're getting even more functionality crammed in there.  I wonder, given the uniqueness of khelds, if some exception could be made to allow you to trade a power pick for slots after about level 30 or so...

[Blood Speaker]

Interestingly, I got so tired of playing the "Kheldian Slot Game" that I permanently went human-only. I've gotten so comfortable with it, at this point, that I'm unlikely to change, without an extremely strong rationale. That said, I certainly think this is a good idea, and one that I'd more-or-less put forward myself, back on live. At the time, the Paragon response (iirc...) boiled down to "our way makes the ATs unique", to which my admittedly undiplomatic response was something along the lines of "you misspelled 'clunky'..."

 

Good times, all 'round.

[Blood Speaker]

23 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Pros and Cons:

 

If you make the forms share slots with the human powers then when you switch forms your attacks will still be recharging if you just used them in the other form.

 

Unless changing forms immediately recharges the common powers, and the ability to change form is given a worthwhile cd, to limit abuse.

 

Like I mentioned above, I thought about this (a fair bit) back in the day.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Blood Speaker

[Wavicle]

How about instead of a cooldown on the forms just an internal cooldown on the recharge ability?

[Blood Speaker]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

How about instead of a cooldown on the forms just an internal cooldown on the recharge ability?

 

Also workable, and one of the options I'd thought about at the time. I just didn't know which route would present the most problems.

[Wavicle]

I like being able to switch forms constantly, I wouldn't want to lose that. But I agree the slot tax is egregiously bad.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Wavicle

[Xiddo]

12 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

It presumably can be done, as the Rebirth community did pretty much this very thing with Kheldians in a recent update.

Whether HC feels it is an acceptable solution, or even that Kheldians "need" solving is a bit of a different argument.  Granted, HC's code base is also a little different, but there's reason enough to assume it could be done, even if should or would is not so easy to assume.

I had a look and a try at the rebirth changes and - while I liked the Idea of it - I didn’t like the fact that I ended up losing powers. Atm I can do nova detonation > dwarf flare > human flare for real damage across a group. A shared recharge doesn’t entice me. 
 

I wouldn’t mind if a couple of powers were changed depending on the form I.E. Pulsar when used in Nova works like the new gleam power in Illusion Dom, is the same in Human atm, and adds a -dam when in Dwarf. But changing em all worries me!

 

While I’m here though… Could we get Cosmic Balance text to include the buff from Sentinels?

[JasperStone]

I spent a year just on my TriForm PB.

 

Beyond a minor buff to dmg on one or two powers, it is solid.

 

You have to make choices and yes, it is hard. 

 

[Emerald Orchid]

Another idea I had thought of, would be to have squid form boost range, damage, accuracy, and recharge but have resistance penalty. Dwarf mode increased healing, resistance, and defense but range and recharge penalties. Then have your full array of powers available in those modes and not have the "freebie" attack powers as someone said.
As for the freebie powers... at higher levels, you need the slots in your powers for them to be worth putting them in your power bars.

Some of my thoughts would grant benefits to stay in a form for more than one activation.
I think we all can agree that there are also so many powers that should just be skipped.

What are some of the powers people view as skippable? Any other suggestions to make some of them more useful?

Would be curious to see your build Jasper.
 

[Doomrider]

The slots tax is more evident pre-IO's.
Once 50 and slotted out, it's far less of an issue than it's made out to be. When building, everything has an opportunity cost, and Khelds are no exception.
When you consider that both forms have single target attacks which require virtually ZERO enhancement to their endurance reduction or recharge (as their end cost and base recharge are already quite low), you can get away with very few slots per power while still enhancing maximally for damage and enough accuracy.

Kheldians are more challenging to build than standard AT's as anyone who has spent time with the class knows. 
The challenge comes from knowing how many slots to devote to specific powers (sometimes only the base slot) and which ones require more investment to function.
Taking the same build philosophy you'd use on say, a Tank for instance, and devoting 5 or 6 slots to each attack power and then applying that same philosophy to a Kheld build often doesn't work. This often can contribute to this "slot tax" idea.
 

[Emerald Orchid]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

I will admit that I don't have my peacebringer slotted with sets nor finished incarnate powers.

I've been addicted to my tankers since I first made one back on live (about mid-life of game, I started with scrapper). I have been enjoying my peacebringer quite a bit as I can fill in holes in the teams very quickly. I only see 3 things that my kheldian does better than my primary tank right now though. Damage beyond 40 feet, fast recharge on healing teammates, and better mez protection when in dwarf form.

 

I would actually argue that the slot game is more complicated on Kheldians after you start getting sets because many sets have their best bonuses with 5 or 6 and having to look into alternate sets to not waste duplicate bonuses.

[Xiddo]

I'd quite like it if the Nova form detonation powers had the gravity pull effect on the main target you're attacking. For example, the Nemesis Warhulk gets Gravitational Pull for 3 secs, sucking everything into it and causing a KD. This would have the net benefit of - if you slot a KB>KD - an added slot across the board. Or, in Dwarf form, if you use maybe the heal (PB) or the Mire (WS) you gain that aura for 5-10 seconds. I feel like thematically both could warrant having it in some power/form. They're space/star themed and the WS already has some mentions of gravity.

Also, bring back Shadow Cysts!

[JasperStone]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:55 PM, Emerald Orchid said:

Another idea I had thought of, would be to have squid form boost range, damage, accuracy, and recharge but have resistance penalty. Dwarf mode increased healing, resistance, and defense but range and recharge penalties. Then have your full array of powers available in those modes and not have the "freebie" attack powers as someone said.
As for the freebie powers... at higher levels, you need the slots in your powers for them to be worth putting them in your power bars.

Some of my thoughts would grant benefits to stay in a form for more than one activation.
I think we all can agree that there are also so many powers that should just be skipped.

What are some of the powers people view as skippable? Any other suggestions to make some of them more useful?

Would be curious to see your build Jasper.
 

 

I do think PBS need some love, so I am not necessarily disagreeing.

@Doomrider really said it well.

 

More than any other AT you have to make choices. 

 

My TriForm focuses on the AoE of all three and being able to cycle through all forms quickly.

 

Nova/Human for lowers lvls 🙂 Nova is a beast at range when you have slots.

Dwarf/Human for mid-levels. And when I want to tank more.

 

Dwarf is your get-out-of-Mez-free card by the way.

 

I do not use Mids*gasp*, so I will try and take some screenshots.

also ...I focus on sets over a ton of procs in powers.

My build works for me.

 

I think was @Greycat that also described PBs best. We are self-contained.

• Three self Heals.
• Mez protection in Dwarf.
• Multiple forms of flight in the AT powerset
• Stealth
• Nova slotted oneway gives you tohitt buff or end mod in another
• Ally Heal - yeah I take this 
• Pets - ok these stink,  but on my BiForms valuable