Instant 50

[battlewraith]

10 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Right.  So on top of everything I listed that they need to know, you can add in: d) what an exploration badge is, e) where they are, f) what the PTW vendor is..  while only subtracting c).  You do realize you just proved my point?

 

No, not really. First of all you said it was false that a pipeline like that existed, which is incorrect. 

 

Secondly, yeah it's less complicated to just go to the vendor--and immediately start wasting that inf on low level content that they will pretty quickly burn through. And then once those SOs are red, wonder why the character isn't performing that well anymore.

 

9 hours ago, Troo said:

There is a high value inspiration drop in the tutorial to sell on the Black Market. As Doc said, they'd have to know to AH it,

Reward Merits for zone explorations are a thing and again, they'd have to know to about it and what to do with the RMs.

 

So how about instead of the 50k, there is a contact you get immediately on entry that leads you though this process. It introduces you to the free p2w movement options, marks the exploration badges on the map (so that you learn the significance of badges and that they may reward you with things like merits), and then guides you through the auction house process. You get more money and learn more about the game then getting a small inf gift to support the easiest and most fleeting levels.

 

Also, if there was a message at the start that said, if you need some startup money ask the friendly community! They would probably get more than 50k lol.

[Sirius.Games]

So there's a fictional person this would help.

 

A)they are relatively new to the game and can't afford TOs

B)they found the game without someone else (maybe YouTube/twitch) telling them about it C)they don't look at or search the forums

D)they don't ask others in game

E)they don't know about the p2w vendor

F)they don't know about badges

G)they don't know about merits or how to convert them

 

You can see this really only benefits a very VERY small portion of individuals that overlap with low engagement players. Also you have to come to the forums to sign up and download a launcher it's not a CD you put in with your credit card info and get an account to play anymore.

 

This isnt sunset coh where the economy was hyper inflated and you had to play the game in ways that exploited mechanics to make inf. It's not pre AH and IO coh where you had to pool resources before you finished the slog to 50 and rely on SO and drops to outfit your char.

 

With limitless development time a tutorial for the different currencies would be great... That being said their probably is on somewhere that I just repeatel skip or don't read. I stopped reading the tutorials and mechanics stuff in game a long time ago.

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

Since you can basically do this by getting the the inspiration gen from p2w for free and selling the inspirations on ah.

You do need a bit of a setup -- a few minutes whacking the mobs around central AP -- to accumulate the AH listing fee if you're starting a new character with zero resources, but it's a trivial bit of overhead.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

So how about instead of the 50k, there is a contact you get immediately on entry that leads you though this process. It introduces you to the free p2w movement options, marks the exploration badges on the map (so that you learn the significance of badges and that they may reward you with things like merits), and then guides you through the auction house process. You get more money and learn more about the game then getting a small inf gift to support the easiest and most fleeting levels.

 

Also, if there was a message at the start that said, if you need some startup money ask the friendly community! They would probably get more than 50k lol.

 

Sure.

[A.I.D.A.]

I think at a certain point, trying to plan for the positive experience of a hypothetical new player who knows absolutely nothing and refuses to look things up is kind of folly.

 

First off, this is a pirate server for a game that's been dead for 10+ years. We probably won't get any new players, we get nostalgic CoH players. At least, when I tell people I didn't play on the live servers, 100% of those interactions have resulted in complete surprise.

Secondly, a lot of these lists of what said hypothetical new player doesn't know, remind me of giving instruction to a simple robot arm to make a peanut butter sandwich, and how you can't just tell a computer to spread peanut butter on bread, you have to break down the steps to a level any thinking human would consider asinine: move hand to pre-determined knife coordinates, close fingers, lift hand, move hand to pre-determined peanut butter coordinates, turn hand, lower hand, etc.

 

I'd like to think that humans, even doing something new on which they lack information, don't need this level of handholding through concepts like in-game money, player markets, and award tokens for completing content, that are essentially a part of most MMORPGs' baseline experiences. In fact, when I was a new player, I would have felt more insulted by this suggestion than any other feeling.

 

I think it's enough to just have Twinshot mention reward merits in dialogue at some point, like, 'Hey, these exist, and you can spend them at merit vendors.'

[Doc_Scorpion]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:30 PM, Aida LaCanthe said:

We probably won't get any new players,

We're regularly getting new players.  Not many, but not zero either.
 

 

On 10/30/2022 at 1:30 PM, Aida LaCanthe said:

I'd like to think that humans, even doing something new on which they lack information, don't need this level of handholding through concepts like in-game money, player markets, and award tokens for completing content, that are essentially a part of most MMORPGs' baseline experiences.

We're not holding anyone's hand - we're giving them a minor boost.  And what kind of person feels insulted by that?

Also, Twinshot's minimum level is far too high to serve as a tutorial.

[Oklahoman]

13 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

We're not holding anyone's hand - we're giving them a minor boost.  And what kind of person feels insulted by that?

 

By my count, 3: @Sirius.Games, @Aida LaCanthe, and probably @twozerofoxtrot since they gave an award to Aida's post. 🙂

[Sirius.Games]

Not insulted but don't see utility in spending volunteer hours coding it. Even if you start with 50k and no barriers it's slower than AE farming because of load times.

 

My issue isn't the idea, my issue is the utility/benefit for the time required to put it in the game and the arguments about for it seem to surround around players that show signs of lack of engagement.

 

I would bet inf that I could get 50k inf within 5 min of character creation just by asking for it in chat saying I was new.

 

Hell i saw someone give 10mil to someone on a task force because they bought team transport unprompted.

 

The community in game is generally helpful and supports each other and the idea rewards disengagement for new players.

 

To OP maybe creating a master guide to making inf and a new player readme would be useful if you see a need in that area.

[weewoozesty]

On 10/29/2022 at 9:27 AM, battlewraith said:

Also, if there was a message at the start that said, if you need some startup money ask the friendly community! They would probably get more than 50k lol.

Might be beneficial for a little bit but it would also create a bit of resentment between new and old players.  After a while older players would just look at new players like a bunch of beggars.

 

50,000 influence is perfect for a new player to get started.  Gives them influence to be able to afford enhancements which are far more expensive than the old training origins were.  And it's evident that way because the enemies at lower levels don't drop influence that scales with that.  

 

The 50,000 is a way to give new players a stipend to get enhancements beyond all else.  You can't expect a new player to know the ins and outs and ways to make easy influence early on or have a main they can just use to give them selves influence.

 

Maybe to avoid heavy exploitation and other stuff that surely somebody out there will do and ruin it for us.  Make it so that it's for your first few characters and then it no longer gets sent to you.  By the time you've made 6 characters you should have a sugar daddy character of some kind.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

Not insulted but don't see utility in spending volunteer hours coding it.

Actually, it would probably be a tiny bit of work to add the 50k to the end-of-mission reward you got when you went back to Coyote, before he sends you to AP, and similarly for redside and goldside.

[battlewraith]

3 hours ago, weewoozesty said:

50,000 influence is perfect for a new player to get started.  Gives them influence to be able to afford enhancements which are far more expensive than the old training origins were.  And it's evident that way because the enemies at lower levels don't drop influence that scales with that.  

 

I don't think people are critical of this idea because they have some objection to helping new players. It's more that 50k inf is so trivial and it's being aimed at the initial levels when enhancements are needed the least.

 

Since this suggestion was made, I started leveling a new character. I ran DFB three times in order to get the acc, dam, and recovery buffs. I then just started doing normal content and got some additional powers from bank missions and whatnot. When I had earned roughly 50k myself, out of curiosity I went to the vendor and buy SOs. This was late teens and I could afford 2. The buffs from the dfb lasted me until I think lvl 26. I didn't buy enhancements again until lvl 27. 

[weewoozesty]

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I don't think people are critical of this idea because they have some objection to helping new players. It's more that 50k inf is so trivial and it's being aimed at the initial levels when enhancements are needed the least.

 

Since this suggestion was made, I started leveling a new character. I ran DFB three times in order to get the acc, dam, and recovery buffs. I then just started doing normal content and got some additional powers from bank missions and whatnot. When I had earned roughly 50k myself, out of curiosity I went to the vendor and buy SOs. This was late teens and I could afford 2. The buffs from the dfb lasted me until I think lvl 26. I didn't buy enhancements again until lvl 27. 

Yup, which is why I think that 50k isnt that big of an issue.  It at the very least allows the new player to get them selves some DOs.  SOs probably not. 

Since from a completely new player perspective they might not feel initially inclined to just farm DFB runs.  They might want to just go through story missions and contact missions. 

 

 

 

The biggest reason I don't want someething that would outright encourage players to ask others for the money directly is because while people like helping others.  There's a limit to generosity.

 

If one player comes up to you and asks you for 50,000.  No big deal.  Another.  Still no big deal.  But lets say a year from now you are still getting people all the time in /help and /general begging for influence etc it'll grate on people's nerves.

 

 

Funny thing is while typing this.  What if instead of giving them 50,000 outright if that isnt ok with people.  Simply increasing the monetary rewards from the early contact missions found around Atlas.    If they do that, people still have to earn it.  But it would give a new player more than enough to get a set of SOs for their powers until they are able to buy SO's which even then are really expensive for new players but by that time the player should know the market etc enough to know that they can sell salvage on the auction house for easy influence specially if an orange comes along.

[El D]

44 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I don't think people are critical of this idea because they have some objection to helping new players. It's more that 50k inf is so trivial and it's being aimed at the initial levels when enhancements are needed the least.

 

Since this suggestion was made, I started leveling a new character. I ran DFB three times in order to get the acc, dam, and recovery buffs. I then just started doing normal content and got some additional powers from bank missions and whatnot. When I had earned roughly 50k myself, out of curiosity I went to the vendor and buy SOs. This was late teens and I could afford 2. The buffs from the dfb lasted me until I think lvl 26. I didn't buy enhancements again until lvl 27. 

 

Yeah, the 50k isn't going to make a huge difference - which isn't to say it shouldn't be done just that it alone won't really improve things. Frankly, more than anything I think @battlewraith's post is a really good point on highlighting SOs just being over all overly expensive, especially at lower levels and in-particular with how cheap IOs have become. A level 20 SO will get you more numerical benefit than a level 20 IO, but that level 20 IO is more than likely a fraction of the cost on AH, will never degrade, and won't ever require that a player spend tons more influence to upgrade it repeatedly every X levels. Beyond that, by the time someone hits the level where they earnestly need to slot enhancements it's just so much more more cost effective to get level 25/30 generic IOs or available attuned sets and slap those in until the character hits 50.

 

The 50k for doing the tutorial isn't a bad idea, but as is all that is probably going to go into Wentworths and not any of the in-game stores. SO prices from stores need adjusting - given that they require multiple expenses of influence to upgrade even after that, they shouldn't be that prohibitively expensive in the first place (also any store-bought SOs should be able to be sold back for their full value, imo).

Edited November 1, 2022 by El D

[srmalloy]

37 minutes ago, El D said:

...highlighting SOs just being over all overly expensive, especially at lower levels and in-particular with how cheap IOs have become.

Throwing out for comment: With SOs being available starting at level 2, it makes the low-level IOs -- basically everything below 25 that isn't a global or proc -- significantly worse than SOs. Should the enhancement values for IOs be revised so that they start out more competitive against SOs when they become available at 12, scaling up more slowly with increasing level to the same percentages that level-50 IOs have now?

[Sirius.Games]

Since enhancements are the primary thing just make SOs free?

 

SOs are too expensive to matter, for DOs and TOs you out level them too quickly.

 

Maybe temp powers you can buy?

Travel powers are available at level 4.

There are multiple free attack powers.

Others are too expensive with 50k.

 

What about the boosts?

Run dfb.

If someone knows about the ptw vendor they can likely figure out how to make inf.

Are the boosts really helpful that early?

 

It's a nice gesture but again in go back to the benefit being so small that any amount of time spent coding it could be better spent on a number of other things.

 

I think that sums up my thoughts the best. I won't be mad if it's added, I just don't see any actual benefit to it.

 

 

[El D]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Throwing out for comment: With SOs being available starting at level 2, it makes the low-level IOs -- basically everything below 25 that isn't a global or proc -- significantly worse than SOs. Should the enhancement values for IOs be revised so that they start out more competitive against SOs when they become available at 12, scaling up more slowly with increasing level to the same percentages that level-50 IOs have now?

 

I think that might just exacerbate SOs being ignored, honestly. Early IOs are already much cheaper and making the lower-level ones even better numerically seems like it'd just lead folks to buy those instead since they'd be an even better one-and-done investment. The trade-off for them not degrading as a player leveled up was that they didn't provide as much of a buff as even-level SOs do at lower levels, but since IOs eclipse SOs pretty hard at higher levels lessening that on top of set bonuses doesn't really seem like a detriment.

 

SOs need something to make them worth the continual investment - they're too expensive at lower levels and not mathematically worth it at higher ones. Given that they're origin specific, it could be interesting if having a higher amount of them slotted made that character better at fighting opponents aligned with that origin-type. Sort of like set bonus that increase the powers effects against specific enemy groups, encouraging players to fight those groups more and get more usable SO drops.

Edited November 1, 2022 by El D

[A.I.D.A.]

Why is it somehow important that SO's not be ignored? I regularly create new characters without slotting a single thing until Lv. 22 at least, 27 for some builds. And then go right to basic IOs. Then those last me until 50, during which time I trade merits for salable salvage in order to fill the slots with attuned Set IOs. The game just advanced and changed to a point where SO's are a legacy mechanic that people who like them can choose (inefficiently) to engage with, but just flat-out aren't a relevant concern for the direction of the game anymore.

[biostem]

I done goofed!  Thank you for pointing it out, @Rudra.

Edited November 2, 2022 by biostem

[Rudra]

Wrong 50, @biostem. The 50 in question is giving characters 50k influence when 1st made.

[biostem]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:17 PM, Oklahoman said:

I think it would be good to start off all new characters with a "welcome package" - including an instant 50,000 inf. It's not a large enough amount to create a problem if someone tries to farm that by creating new characters, but it would be enough to get a round of training enhancements right off the bat.

Actually, what I would rather see would be a set of level 4 or 5 generic IOs as the "welcome package" - maybe something like a set of 10 vouchers that you can trade in for basic IOs of your choice.

Edited November 2, 2022 by biostem

[Doc_Scorpion]

12 hours ago, battlewraith said:

It's more that 50k inf is so trivial and it's being aimed at the initial levels when enhancements are needed the least.

Try playing a new character without a sugar daddy or speed leveling (DFB or farms), and you'll very quickly learn that a) DO's and SO's make a significant difference, and b) 50k isn't trivial.
 

 

12 hours ago, battlewraith said:

When I had earned roughly 50k myself, out of curiosity I went to the vendor and buy SOs. This was late teens and I could afford 2.

You leveled to where SO's are expensive, and created an irrelevant comparison since this stipend is aimed a players of far lower levels.  If you were a level 2 character, the level this stipend is aimed at, you could have afforded 20 SO's.

 

[Oklahoman]

10 hours ago, biostem said:

I done goofed!  Thank you for pointing it out, @Rudra.

 

What?!?! Someone fell into my trap and I missed it? Anyone got a screenshot?

 

Curse you @Rudra for spoiling my fun!

Edited November 2, 2022 by Oklahoman
Cursing

[battlewraith]

9 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You leveled to where SO's are expensive, and created an irrelevant comparison since this stipend is aimed a players of far lower levels.  If you were a level 2 character, the level this stipend is aimed at, you could have afforded 20 SO's.

 

Lol no. The cheapest lvl 5 SOs are around 3k. Some of the more popular ones like dmg are around 6k. Nobody is buying 20 of these things for 50k, even if they could enhance fear in every power or something.

9 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Try playing a new character without a sugar daddy or speed leveling (DFB or farms), and you'll very quickly learn that a) DO's and SO's make a significant difference, and b) 50k isn't trivial.

 

I tried a new character as I said. I didn't give it any money. Also, the point of the dfb was to get the buffs, not to speed level. Those buffs lasted me until level 26 without really needing to enhance anything. That was using the 2x xp booster, but you could so the same thing without using a booster. Either way, that's a better option than investing in SOs that are very quickly going to be outleveled. 

 

The illogic of this quoted statement is that if SOs and DOs make a significant difference, then you'll level faster and they will therefore expire faster. If you want to level faster, just run some dfbs and/or use a booster to make easier settings worth more. Don't bother wasting the money. If you aren't worried about earning faster, then you don't need the significant difference that those enhancements are going to give you. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

If the problem is that new players cannot afford SOs right off the bat, a simple solution appears to me that they should remove SOs from vendors until the player has reached a high enough level to be able to afford them.  Something like, I don't know, level 22 or something like that.

 

Then we could add some sort of enhancements that people could use at a low level, but make them less powerful and less expensive.  Then people could use them while they were training to a high enough level.  I'm not sure what we should call them though.

 

Also, a really low-effort. low-programming time way to help people is to add a new message to the loading screen tips that says to email @Yomo in game for 20mm start-up capital.

[biostem]

The free "Inner Inspiration" power gives you 3 medium or large inspirations every 25 minutes.  The large ones can sell for 10K-100K, so if you're patient, (especially if you don't use the 2XP buff), you can get that money in very short order through normal play.