With all of the revamped and proliferated powersets - what powersets stand out now as extremely weak or powerful?

[tidge]

I don't think DP underperforms, so I guess that is a "I don't disagree", at least for my Corruptor.

 

Swap Ammo is, I think, a rather unique mechanic... so without doing any hard number crunching, I'm really not sure where it stands. IIRC the only things that really stood out to me were:

• The lack of a Snipe
• The wee cone on Piercing Rounds

The first was not a deal-breaker, and the second one was something I came to appreciate. If there is a deal-breaker for me, it is the sound FX.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

I don't think DP underperforms, so I guess that is a "I don't disagree", at least for my Corruptor.

 

Swap Ammo is, I think, a rather unique mechanic... so without doing any hard number crunching, I'm really not sure where it stands. IIRC the only things that really stood out to me were:

• The lack of a Snipe
• The wee cone on Piercing Rounds

The first was not a deal-breaker, and the second one was something I came to appreciate. If there is a deal-breaker for me, it is the sound FX.

 

Those ARE the two powers I also would have singled out. I think the set is fine overall. If I could make changes to the set I would do the following:

Swap Ammo effects buffed slightly.

Piercing Rounds gets the -Res regardless of ammo type.

 

Those two changes would make the set just about perfect, from my perspective.

[DougGraves]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

• The wee cone on Piercing Rounds

 

I really like piercing rounds - but I have stealth.  So I can line up a shot to hit 2 or 3.  Without stealth it would not be nearly as useful.

[Zect]

DP in competent hands is extremely powerful. It is one of the most proccable blast sets, with every power capable of slotting 5 or 6 non-unique damage procs (exception: Pistols takes 4 - for some reason it doesn't slot slow sets). Something like a DP/kin that caps damage on top of the procs and stacks massive -dmg from chem ammo and power siphon on enemies is a monster.

 

If you do not design a procbombing build for it, then the dps is only average.

 

Its "weakness" is really due to the current meta. It's a set without Aim, with a low base damage (but faster recharge) nuke, in a metagame that is largely about massive burst aoe damage. On blasters especially, if you do not pair it with a 2ndary that has a build up clone, you can't wipe screenfuls of mobs the way other blasters can, and that may lead to a misconception that the set is weak. The answer to this is to shake up the whole unfun mass-aoe meta.

[Agorazium]

Sonic Resonance is not a bad sad per se, but I don’t see a reason to bring it to the table anymore when other sets can do what it does almost as well and have other things to offer on top of +/-res. It’s a shame because it was my favorite support set on live. At the very least, Liquefy has no business having as long a recharge as it does.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sovereigne

[Astralock]

5 hours ago, Sovereigne said:

Sonic Resonance is not a bad sad per se, but I don’t see a reason to bring it to the table anymore when other sets can do what it does almost as well and have other things to offer on top of +/-res. It’s a shame because it was my favorite support set on live. At the very least, Liquefy has no business having as long a recharge as it does.

 

Out of curiosity, what other support power set does a large amount of +res, a large amount of -res, and also provides AoE mez protection?

[Uun]

8 hours ago, Zect said:

On blasters especially, if you do not pair it with a 2ndary that has a build up clone, you can't wipe screenfuls of mobs the way other blasters can, and that may lead to a misconception that the set is weak.

I paired DP with Ninja Training (for concept reasons), so no BU but it does crit. I ended up slotting the BU proc in Shinobi, which does help the damage in a random sort of way. It clears spawns pretty well, but it requires stacking 2-3 attacks.

[Agorazium]

11 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

Out of curiosity, what other support power set does a large amount of +res, a large amount of -res, and also provides AoE mez protection?

I mean Sonic is indisputably the king of +/- res. I just don’t think that’s as much of a selling point as it used to be. Pain and Thermal offer both, mez protection (not AOE but it’s not hard to apply), strong healing, and a superbuff in Pain/superdebuff in Thermal - plus Forge which is easy to keep up on your damage-dealers. Nature lacks the AOE -res but Overgrowth’s damage buff is insane and very easy to perma which I would argue evens the playing field on that front, and again it brings heals, a rez, and other buffs/debuffs to the table.

 

It’s not that Sonic doesn’t have strengths or an identity, just that IMO the other support sets have more of both those things and I would rather have probably any other set on my teams.

[ExeErdna]

On 12/12/2022 at 3:09 PM, Wavicle said:

How do people feel about Dual Pistols? I keep trying it and keep being disappointed, but I've heard from others they think it's fine.

Since others broke down the main issues of the set I would like to say for the "blastery" sets of DP they're able to use the Thugs animations

[Wavicle]

It seems clear that the reason I have been disappointed with DP is because I play starting from 1 and I don’t add sets and procs until very high level if ever. Most powersets that’s not a problem for me. With DP it feels like an issue.

[Zect]

3 hours ago, Sovereigne said:

I mean Sonic is indisputably the king of +/- res. I just don’t think that’s as much of a selling point as it used to be.

 

It's more of a selling point than ever. In the current meta where softcap is trivial and defense buffs ample, res/-res is very strong. If that is not a selling point, it's because of the overuse of -res/+res in support sets and the resultant homogenization of play experience - case in point, the recent addition of -res to FF, turning a balanced set into a significantly overpowered one.

 

Neither pain nor therm give the caster mez protection, and while they do have a strong ST buff, they don't have an additional -res debuff that sonic has.

 

However, your complaint about liquefy has merit. Not that the power is weak, but a 5 min base recharge is far too long, literally on the order of some armor set T9's. That kind of recharge is reserved for situational or last-resort powers that do not have a major influence on a powerset's core feel and contributes to the bland feel of sonic res.

 

Liquefy should first be weakened by losing two or more of its effects; you really don't need a KD patch to also be an aoe hold and literally 3 different debuffs. Then, the recharge can be lowered to make the power more usable. I believe it should not be more than 145s base at most, same as most blast set nukes, or just barely within every-spawn uptime range for a permahasten build.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Zect

[Agorazium]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

 

It's more of a selling point than ever. In the current meta where softcap is trivial and defense buffs ample, res/-res is very strong. If that is not a selling point, it's because of the overuse of -res/+res in support sets and the resultant homogenization of play experience - case in point, the recent addition of -res to FF, turning a balanced set into a significantly overpowered one.

 

Neither pain nor therm give the caster mez protection, and while they do have a strong ST buff, they don't have an additional -res debuff that sonic has.

 

However, your complaint about liquefy has merit. Not that the power is weak, but a 5 min base recharge is far too long, literally on the order of some armor set T9's. That kind of recharge is reserved for situational or last-resort powers that do not have a major influence on a powerset's core feel and contributes to the bland feel of sonic res.

 

Liquefy should first be weakened by losing two or more of its effects; you really don't need a KD patch to also be an aoe hold and literally 3 different debuffs. Then, the recharge can be lowered to make the power more usable. I believe it should not be more than 145s base at most, same as most blast set nukes, or just barely within every-spawn uptime range for a permahasten build.

Fair play, but IMO the status resistance from Dispersion makes Clarity kind of a dud power. I feel like one way to "fix" the set could be to tack Clarity's numbers onto Dispersion's, making status resistance a premier reason to play Sonic and allowing Clarity to be replaced or reworked into something with a little more flavor. 

 

Sonic Siphon is solid, but I don't think it's that much better than the damage buffs from Forge, Painbringer, Overgrowth etc. especially when you consider the hard targets you want to be using it on are going to resist some of it. Also those damage buffs apply to all targets making them useful in all situations, not just boss fights. YMMV of course but again I would rather have other sets that have more tools (which may be part of the problem as you said, the Trick Arrow and FF reworks were overkill) on my team. I play mostly support toons and my /Sonic definitely feels the least impactful of the bunch.

 

Agreed re: Liquefy. The hold is pointless and while removing it would take away some proc-ability it takes plenty of others.

 

I am hopeful that Sonic is on the list to be looked at at some point. The fact that they gave Dispersion Bubble the buff that makes its effects last for 15 seconds after you leave it, but did not do the same for Sonic Dispersion, tells me that it might have other changes in the works that just weren't ready to ship at the time...hopefully...

[loyalreader]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, tidge said:

Swap Ammo is, I think, a rather unique mechanic... so without doing any hard number crunching, I'm really not sure where it stands. IIRC the only things that really stood out to me were:

• The lack of a Snipe
• The wee cone on Piercing Rounds

The first was not a deal-breaker, and the second one was something I came to appreciate. If there is a deal-breaker for me, it is the sound FX.

 

I have a DP/Martial blaster who I have respeced countless times. I finally 'cracked the code' by losing both Swap Ammo and Piercing Rounds. 

 

Standard rounds do a shocking amount of KB, and with my Musculature alpha it feels like I'm getting a little something from my buff to -Def.

 

BoS into the middle of a pack, hit Hail, then Dragon's Tail, and keep firing off  AoE attacks. Everyone is either on their butt waiting to be finished off by my single target attacks or... arrested. 

 

I just hate the look of Piercing Rounds. No numbers to prove it but I'm quite sure it hurts DPS. I don't need it. 

 

I'm not a min-maxer - as proof I took the Munitions Ancillary for the sweet additional KB/AoE of LRM Rocket - but x2/x4 is a cakewalk, and I fight both Malta and Carnies. It's super fun. 

 

 

[biostem]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, tidge said:

The wee cone on Piercing Rounds

My understanding is that the very small cone was the only way to implement a "shoots through multiple targets in a line" effect...

[SaintD]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:52 AM, Wavicle said:

It seems clear that the reason I have been disappointed with DP is because I play starting from 1 and I don’t add sets and procs until very high level if ever. Most powersets that’s not a problem for me. With DP it feels like an issue.

Yeah I don't use procs very much. Dual Pistols is garbage. It's terrible. The animations themselves are fine, but there's choppy pauses when they start and finish between them, and the damage sucks ass.

As soon as the explanation for why a power or powerset is good starts saying 'proc potential' I walk straight out the door, because it's code for 'this thing is garbage but I can drop a dumptruck of inf and time I completely take for granted on it to do unintended things with it', and I know it'll never be fixed because the Old Timer Minmax Mafia will make a load of noise. Just like Rage in Super Strength.

Edited December 15, 2022 by SaintD

[Zect]

8 hours ago, SaintD said:

As soon as the explanation for why a power or powerset is good starts saying 'proc potential' I walk straight out the door, because it's code for 'this thing is garbage but I can drop a dumptruck of inf and time I completely take for granted on it to do unintended things with it', and I know it'll never be fixed because the Old Timer Minmax Mafia will make a load of noise. Just like Rage in Super Strength.

 

As a card-carrying member of the Old Timer Minmax Mafia, and someone who enjoys procbombing builds in general, I will be extremely pleased if the PPM system is ever given a proper balance pass - along with many other broken aspects of the game, such as the interaction between power boost and certain +def powers. I wouldn't give up hope just yet, either; mere months ago, we saw the fixing of the infamous Burn procrate exploit, as well as a complete overhaul of defense typing, which overturned fundamental assumptions many IO builds depend on when softcapping. Minmaxers welcome these changes because they lead to greater build diversity, new build/slotting possibilities, and ultimately, even more replay value for the game. 

 

That said, like it or not, proccability is a major metric of a set's power ceiling. You may not enjoy utilizing the system, but it still needs to be mentioned in any discussion of a set's potential.

[Yomo Kimyata]

If I have learned one thing about life on HC, it is that unless a power is the absolute best in its class, enough people will complain until the devs improve it enough so that it is now the absolute best in class.  And so the cycle continues.

 

I'm looking forward to how good my broadsword/regen brute is going to be, since I anticipate that soon broadsword will get something like a 5% chance for decapitation for double damage after all bonuses on all attacks.  Unless you are a tanker, of course, in which case it's instant death for the GM you are fighting.

[DougGraves]

I am going to put Gravity Control for Dominators on this list.  It gets extra attacks and less control - which is useless on a dominator.  And it doesn't even start with a single target hold available.

 

Gravity Control for controllers is fine, I think.  It gives you an option for a higher damage controller better for soloing.

 

But it should get a revamp for dominators.

[Xaddy]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:09 PM, Wavicle said:

How do people feel about Dual Pistols? I keep trying it and keep being disappointed, but I've heard from others they think it's fine.

The animations are what kill the set. Just too spastic to suit me. 

[gamingglen]

"what powersets stand out now as extremely weak"

 

The powerset I'm currently using.

 

"or powerful?"

 

The powersets everyone else is using.

 

😄 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by gamingglen