Tankers and -ToHit

[StriderIV]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

So combined with decent def and resists I'm hoping to avoid needing to chase more defense.

 

Running Darkest Night over the top of something like the example damage focused build below. (It's a little skinny on end so may need to continue tweaking)

   

 

A simple 100 incoming damage

• needs to get past the -23 ToHit, then the ~35% Def. (getting hit even 25% of the time is better than 95%, but for DDR)
• then the -Dam, and finally the resistance.

What primary are you using again?

[twozerofoxtrot]

8 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

What primary are you using again?

 

That has to be Fire with Consume active. 

[Troo]

5 hours ago, StriderIV said:

What primary are you using again?

 

two nailed it.

[MrAxe]

I have it on my proc monster build due to having less defense and resistance than my tanking build.

[Hjarki]

I'm a big fan of Darkest Night myself. It's a nice way to augment your defenses.

 

However, I'd caution against relying on Darkest Night. As with all debuffs, it gets reduced by level differences and AV/GM status. So while it may seem like you can run around with nothing more than Weave and an enhanced Darkest Night, this just isn't the case.

[Mythical Creature]

Thoughts on Darkest Night versus Unleash Potential? Both are sort of like gaining 15% defense. I only have room for one in my build (dark/sav) and my resists are mostly capped anyways. 

 

Is it better to have the defense (which will soft cap me and give me regen/recovery on a 2 minute timer, or to have the -to hit and -dam on demand albeit with a 2sec cast time? 

[Sir Myshkin]

21 hours ago, 723wolf said:

Thoughts on Darkest Night versus Unleash Potential?

First and foremost, assuming we’re talking about a Tanker here, there’s not a lot of reason you shouldn’t already be Res capped with the very strong probability of having 45% S/L/Melee. While Scrappers do have a lower cap, Tankers stretch values further and Scrappers can full cap and achieve the 45% pretty easily.

 

A general rule of thumb I build by on Armor sets once they start reaching cap levels is to go off the main form of protection and determine how to continue maximizing that once it “caps”. For Defense you can just stack more defense and also look for ways to help protect that defense with DDR like in Ageless Radial. For Resistance it’s self protecting and once at cap there’s really no purpose in having more, but you can create fake resistance in the form of -Dam which is almost like adding an absorb layer to your armor. Lower the damage dealt, and then resist that remaining portion even further.

[Yomo Kimyata]

21 hours ago, 723wolf said:

Thoughts on Darkest Night versus Unleash Potential?

 

Why not both?  I'm currently a huge fan of Unleash Potential since it provides defense, endurance recovery, and healing for 60 seconds.  I 6 slot it every time and adjust the slotting to whatever I need most on the character.

 

[Mezmera]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:20 PM, 723wolf said:

Thoughts on Darkest Night versus Unleash Potential?

 

Unleash Potential is a great power to have when you need it.  The biggest thing I use it for is the large endurance recovery in case I get hit with an endurance debuff.  That it nets you a large amount of defense and regen at your leisure is extra gravy.  

 

I slot mine with 4 Shield Walls all the ones with recharge and the defense one all +5 which I get about 25% defenses to all.  If I have an extra slot I'll sometimes throw in a Lotg +recharge.  

 

Unleash offers too much to pass up so I'd go with that one first and if you had room Darkest Night.

[ZemX]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:20 PM, 723wolf said:

Is it better to have the defense (which will soft cap me and give me regen/recovery on a 2 minute timer, or to have the -to hit and -dam on demand albeit with a 2sec cast time? 

 

Rather than approach it that way, let me suggest that the problem with Darkest Night on a resistance based tanker is that it isn't in the same pool as Focused Accuracy.  Without a lot of defense and the DDR to protect it, you get hit by a lot of debuffs.  And like anybody you also get hit by the autohit -toHit debuffs like Hurricanes and NPCs own Darkest Night.  In those cases, it's nice to have the hefty -toHit debuff resistance provided by Focused Accuracy.  And it comes in a pool with other endurance and regen powers.

 

U.P. sounds nice, I guess, but you wouldn't need its recovery if you had a theft of essence in Dark Regen and maybe pick up Physical Perfection instead.  Dark Armor has good endurance drain resistance already, doesn't it?   The defense is nice, I suppose, but also fragile.  You can back it up a little with Ageless Radial SOME of the time, but it's still only going to be useful in situations that don't involve defense debuffs, and I always find my Rad Armor Tankers are nigh invulnerable in those situations already.  I assume the same is true of Dark Armor built well.

 

Lastly, you said it was on a two minute timer.  Are you sure of that?  Mid's might be telling you this if you have some FF:recharge procs enabled.  Or maybe you really do have +300% recharge time buff.  Just checking.  Otherwise, U.P. becomes a lot less available and thus less worth it except as an occasional emergency button.  A discount Elude with no crash.

[Mezmera]

27 minutes ago, ZemX said:

U.P. sounds nice, I guess, but you wouldn't need its recovery if you had a theft of essence in Dark Regen and maybe pick up Physical Perfection instead

 

I had Physical Perfection on my tank before these Hard Mode task forces.  The endurance recovery is paltry compared to Unleash Potential so when I got hit through my defenses with a smelters minute lasting endurance debuff Physical Perfection was just not seeing me through.  Whereas Unleash Potential got me through those endurance debuffs with also the side benefit of 25% more defenses and 150% regen, far more versatile than Physical Perfection.  

[Mezmera]

37 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Lastly, you said it was on a two minute timer.  Are you sure of that?  Mid's might be telling you this if you have some FF:recharge procs enabled.  Or maybe you really do have +300% recharge time buff.  Just checking.  Otherwise, U.P. becomes a lot less available and thus less worth it except as an occasional emergency button.  A discount Elude with no crash.

 

Mine I have gotten down on my tank to recharge in about 3 to 3 1/2 minutes.  So one minute up, two minutes down.  It's there when I really need it.  

[Mythical Creature]

40 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Rather than approach it that way, let me suggest that the problem with Darkest Night on a resistance based tanker is that it isn't in the same pool as Focused Accuracy.  Without a lot of defense and the DDR to protect it, you get hit by a lot of debuffs.  And like anybody you also get hit by the autohit -toHit debuffs like Hurricanes and NPCs own Darkest Night.  In those cases, it's nice to have the hefty -toHit debuff resistance provided by Focused Accuracy.  And it comes in a pool with other endurance and regen powers.

 

U.P. sounds nice, I guess, but you wouldn't need its recovery if you had a theft of essence in Dark Regen and maybe pick up Physical Perfection instead.  Dark Armor has good endurance drain resistance already, doesn't it?   The defense is nice, I suppose, but also fragile.  You can back it up a little with Ageless Radial SOME of the time, but it's still only going to be useful in situations that don't involve defense debuffs, and I always find my Rad Armor Tankers are nigh invulnerable in those situations already.  I assume the same is true of Dark Armor built well.

 

Lastly, you said it was on a two minute timer.  Are you sure of that?  Mid's might be telling you this if you have some FF:recharge procs enabled.  Or maybe you really do have +300% recharge time buff.  Just checking.  Otherwise, U.P. becomes a lot less available and thus less worth it except as an occasional emergency button.  A discount Elude with no crash.

2mins was an estimate it is more like 2 and a half minutes.

 

Focused Accuracy seems like it would be a huge end drain on dark armor, maybe not? I did build in as much +Accuracy as I could. 

 

I was actually able to work in both Unleash Potential and Darkest Night by getting rid of hasten. UP is mostly for when shtf and Darkest Night is used more for team support or if I need UP and it is down. I just left UP with like a 5 minute recharge I shouldn't need it often. 

[Mythical Creature]

18 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

First and foremost, assuming we’re talking about a Tanker here, there’s not a lot of reason you shouldn’t already be Res capped with the very strong probability of having 45% S/L/Melee. While Scrappers do have a lower cap, Tankers stretch values further and Scrappers can full cap and achieve the 45% pretty easily.

 

A general rule of thumb I build by on Armor sets once they start reaching cap levels is to go off the main form of protection and determine how to continue maximizing that once it “caps”. For Defense you can just stack more defense and also look for ways to help protect that defense with DDR like in Ageless Radial. For Resistance it’s self protecting and once at cap there’s really no purpose in having more, but you can create fake resistance in the form of -Dam which is almost like adding an absorb layer to your armor. Lower the damage dealt, and then resist that remaining portion even further.

 

I am on a dark/sav tanker and I originally went for 45%+ positional defenses and my mostly capped resists, but that required a ton of toggles to keep up and the the lack of DDR made it seem like a waste when I needed it most. Instead I changed to have 30%+ all positional defenses and picked up DN and UP to bridge the gap. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

In practice, I find that Unleash is up about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time, and at 60 seconds it's a nice long buff.  I wouldn't characterize it as an occasional power.

 

My go to slotting is probably:  Lotg Def/Rech, Lotg +recharge, Shield Wall Def+5, Shield Wall D/R +5, Panacea H+5, Panacea H/R+5.  The set bonuses aren't spectacular, but they are something.  Lvl 53 HO/DSO are also good here.  If you are looking for a little slow resistance, 3 slot Synapse Shock for 10%.  There's something in this power for everyone!

 

With respect to Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone:  I'm at the point now that I just slot it for end reduction.  The base value is good, but the 60+% to hit debuff resistance is great.

[ZemX]

26 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I had Physical Perfection on my tank before these Hard Mode task forces.  The endurance recovery is paltry compared to Unleash Potential so when I got hit through my defenses with a smelters minute lasting endurance debuff Physical Perfection was just not seeing me through.  Whereas Unleash Potential got me through those endurance debuffs with also the side benefit of 25% more defenses and 150% regen, far more versatile than Physical Perfection.  

 

Are you also a Dark Armor tank? My comments are in that context.  Dark Regen accepts accurate healing IOs, which means it can slot Theft of Essence +end.  That turns an already massive and very available heal into something that will refill your endurance as well (if you have a few enemies about you ).  I use it on Rad Armor's Rad Therapy and it pretty much covers any sort of endurance drain situation.  Dark Regen has an even shorter recharge and is a better heal to boot and Dark Armor has good endurance drain resist built into the set too.

 

I mention PP in the Energy Mastery pool as someting that can add more all-the-time recovery.   It's not a direct replacement for UP.  Wasn't suggesting it was.    It's part of an equation comparing what you have with Energy Mastery and what you have (or don't have) with Soul Mastery.

 

25 minutes ago, 723wolf said:

Focused Accuracy seems like it would be a huge end drain on dark armor, maybe not? I did build in as much +Accuracy as I could. 

 

Despite the name, Focused Accuracy isn't really about accuracy.   I mean, It DOES add some accuracy and some +toHit, but not enough of either to make you want to take this power given, as you rightly point out, the high cost of running it.   The real story, as Yomo just noted as well, is the toHit debuff resistance.  If the power did ONLY this... I would still take it.  It's why I take it at all.  It is particularly useful if you don't have reliable defense, which is another reason it matters I'm responding to a Dark Armor tanker.  Defense based tanks enjoy not just getting hit for damage less often, but getting hit with DEBUFFS less often.   They still take the autohit stuff, but it's less overall debuff.  On a res-based Tanker who not only gets hit more often but, simply by virtue of being a Tanker, WANTS everyone to attack them, toHit debuffs can be a serious pain.  If the endurance cost is a problem, you can run the power only when you noticed you've been debuffed.  The debuff resistance works the same before or after the debuff is applied to you.  So you can safely use it reactively rather than proactively.

 

UP still has that defense, but my argument there is that it's of more use to someone with DDR to protect it.  That's not Dark or Rad Armors.  And as far as hardmodes go, I have little experience with them but from what I've heard the 3 and 4 star varieties need you to be teamed up with decent buff/debuff anyway.  Defense can provide a base to stack up on with team buffs, but is +25% available only a third of the time and requiring multiple enhance slots really worth it?  Difficult to answer in general.  I think it depends a lot on powersets and build.  Always does.  Not many things you can categorically say aren't worth it.  It really depends on how that compares to what else you could have in its place.

 

 

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Are you also a Dark Armor tank? My comments are in that context.  Dark Regen accepts accurate healing IOs, which means it can slot Theft of Essence +end.  That turns an already massive and very available heal into something that will refill your endurance as well (if you have a few enemies about you ).  I use it on Rad Armor's Rad Therapy and it pretty much covers any sort of endurance drain situation.  Dark Regen has an even shorter recharge and is a better heal to boot and Dark Armor has good endurance drain resist built into the set too.

 

I mention PP in the Energy Mastery pool as someting that can add more all-the-time recovery.   It's not a direct replacement for UP.  Wasn't suggesting it was.    It's part of an equation comparing what you have with Energy Mastery and what you have (or don't have) with Soul Mastery.

 

No I am not a Dark Armor tank.  So yes I get that you were adding to the mix of the synergy sprucing up the endurance recovery through heal uniques and what you can do through Physical Perfection and the benefit of U.P. in relation to an armor like Dark that can slot those heal uniques and other things that might need it.  

 

I have a Shield tank which has a power that also accepts heal uniques which I do put in the Numina.  Speaking from a less endurance heavy armor than Dark Armor I found a need to significantly boost endurance through ways outside the armors means which I find U.P. to be a fantabulous option to all tanks.  

 

I do go with Energy Mastery because in the end I had one power to spare and I agree that Focus Accuracy is a fantastic power.  Being already in the Energy pool I did my direct comparisons of Physical Perfection and U.P. and found the small amount of additional recovery all time didn't outweigh all of the huge burst of defense, regen and recovery which with a decent recharge allowed you to do so much more.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Mezmera

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

With respect to Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone:  I'm at the point now that I just slot it for end reduction.  The base value is good, but the 60+% to hit debuff resistance is great.

 

Yeah I slot Focus Accuracy with the 3 pieces in Adjusted Targeting for that Energy resist bonus.  But I go with all of the pieces that get end redux and +5 em.  The best things you get from it is the bonus Accuracy and that -tohitt debuff resistance which you can't enhance and the enhanceable tohitt is equal to a bit better than slotting a kismet, so end reduction is what you want.  Plus your Build Up powers are where you're depending on much more offensively.  

[Mythical Creature]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Despite the name, Focused Accuracy isn't really about accuracy.   I mean, It DOES add some accuracy and some +toHit, but not enough of either to make you want to take this power given, as you rightly point out, the high cost of running it.   The real story, as Yomo just noted as well, is the toHit debuff resistance.  If the power did ONLY this... I would still take it.  It's why I take it at all.  It is particularly useful if you don't have reliable defense, which is another reason it matters I'm responding to a Dark Armor tanker.  Defense based tanks enjoy not just getting hit for damage less often, but getting hit with DEBUFFS less often.   They still take the autohit stuff, but it's less overall debuff.  On a res-based Tanker who not only gets hit more often but, simply by virtue of being a Tanker, WANTS everyone to attack them, toHit debuffs can be a serious pain.  If the endurance cost is a problem, you can run the power only when you noticed you've been debuffed.  The debuff resistance works the same before or after the debuff is applied to you.  So you can safely use it reactively rather than proactively.

 

 

I didn't realize how much to-hit debuff resistance it grants, per city of data 86% on a tanker. Very interesting indeed. It seems that it is more helpful that I realized. Maybe I should just go back to a build without Darkest Night and pick it up with Unleash Potential and Focused Accuracy? It is a tough decision, I haven't really noticed that accuracy was a problem, but I also leave it so I get blue and yellow inspirations only on my dark tanker. Maybe I could drop the yellow candy this way?

[Mythical Creature]

If it helps, this is currently what my dark armor / savage melee tanker has slotted. Perhaps I should just drop Darkest Night and Gloom for Focused Accuracy and the regen/recovery buff?  That would also give me 3 more slots to work with. Is focused accuracy fine with just two endurance reductions (maybe just one?). I could beef up Unleash Potential more and maybe swap Oppressive Gloom out for hasten again. Pretty much everything from level 38 on in my build is negotiable. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by 723wolf

[ZemX]

21 minutes ago, 723wolf said:

I didn't realize how much to-hit debuff resistance it grants, per city of data 86% on a tanker. Very interesting indeed. It seems that it is more helpful that I realized. Maybe I should just go back to a build without Darkest Night and pick it up with Unleash Potential and Focused Accuracy? It is a tough decision, I haven't really noticed that accuracy was a problem, but I also leave it so I get blue and yellow inspirations only on my dark tanker. Maybe I could drop the yellow candy this way?

 

Depends what you fight and at what level.  Earliest you can take FA is 35, so you'll only have it in content level 30 and above.  Unless you wanted something else in your build there and ended up pushing FA later.  If you're always doing endgame, then it's not a concern.  I keep some yellows around for exemplaring below 30.

 

FA and Energy Mastery is something I respecced into when I ran into a lot of toHit debuffers and didn't like being reduced to a taunt bot.  If you're not experiencing that, it could be just the content you prefer running doesn't feature that much toHit debuffing.

[ZemX]

56 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I do go with Energy Mastery because in the end I had one power to spare and I agree that Focus Accuracy is a fantastic power.  Being already in the Energy pool I did my direct comparisons of Physical Perfection and U.P. and found the small amount of additional recovery all time didn't outweigh all of the huge burst of defense, regen and recovery which with a decent recharge allowed you to do so much more.  

 

I don't actually have PP myself but that's because Rad Armor has good recovery, end drain resist, and the possibility of slotting Theft of Essense in the heal.   I've always heard Dark Armor described as End heavy though which is why I mentioned it.

 

I am just particularly dismissive of +def on Resist tankers who don't have DDR.   I can see how U.P. should be much more useful on a Shield Tanker.  You can add defense and protect it with DDR.  And Shield certainly needs the recovery more than Rad does.  It also lacks a heal, so the +regen is a bigger deal.

[Mythical Creature]

8 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Depends what you fight and at what level.  Earliest you can take FA is 35, so you'll only have it in content level 30 and above.  Unless you wanted something else in your build there and ended up pushing FA later.  If you're always doing endgame, then it's not a concern.  I keep some yellows around for exemplaring below 30.

 

FA and Energy Mastery is something I respecced into when I ran into a lot of toHit debuffers and didn't like being reduced to a taunt bot.  If you're not experiencing that, it could be just the content you prefer running doesn't feature that much toHit debuffing.

 

Thanks to your input this is what I ended up landing on. I couldn't quite get to 100% slow resistance, but 80% isn't too bad, of course I also picked up Focused Accuracy. Unleash Potential was really an afterthought but I was able to get it to cap out my defenses with an up time of once every four minutes or so. Which in my book is just fine for a power I don't plan to rely on too much. 

 

Now I am seriously considering if my radiation armor tanker needs a respec, they have no to-hit debuff resistance at all. Their recovery debuff is thankfully pretty close to cap at 90%. The secondary is Dark Melee, so perhaps this is less of an issue for them since they get pretty close to -45% to-hit on a regular basis between Darkest Night, Beta Decay, and landing just one attack. They sort of back into soft capped defenses. I think I may just load them up with yellows since they don't need inspirations anyways. I sort of like the concept of them being a tanker with soft defender like abilities, I like the idea that I can help my team avoid being attacked. 

 

Thanks for all your help!

https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1660&c=724&a=1448&f=HEX&dc=78DA75944B4F13611486DF69A794420BD2CA1DE4A2D096EA00AEBCA3015C284D4830B231692675280DB5256D4320FE0075E7356E1471A97FC06BFC05BA370AEADA04355123C6C578983347BEAA4CD2E6F96EE7BCDF79CF4C72712CF8EAE5C47168C1D19C592AA5CE98F939ABE84B9A996C1AF40446CD72F774B69C9EF5D3A895975363D68C952F59C698599C4B9D285E2814652569E52CCB983217CC8CC50384270B859C71B2504C5BA9C24C6A3A9BCB85782A9B992D67F399A0339AB0CC791AD43883A979CB3A1F199FCFA68DF1BC55CC2CA59266A96C15975A48453FFD1E05E84F833CB60F18F102C33A9A708C61372EE92E5C16B8C2B0076F79CFEB18D46733CC2DDEE2C135811B0C3AAE0BCCC1812ACC323C26359AA246D7F08D13ECC50F867DF82ED04C3B3B75186861784322BCAA082F967537C11D866ADC15B8C8296BB024B0C8F08444F814111E9F883024F72036189ED15EBFF6A780B6CF8FFB9C20887B022B0C75F8E875619D6107C25E477999940714E55A00EDE2C2AAC781A7B45EABAAAA1555035BAA7E3278A8C742CA5E84D0C6777B1107EAD512D5E3AAEE6AB9C9101657C2E2CA4EA408A29B708EC14B091A549F1AB6C46C8861C3E2D37E86210C323CA7AB44D49E8B20A03971FB512DE017A862883A9E38A03334918846258CD688D35EB72DBF32AC525D9BD5EB368BED2D5810706D6F93466873BA88A003BFB8F61F284CAB5ACF56A9E73B5A695713B423E1710F0F30EC425C20261065E8463FC37B0AD3A986E9C451D97244E010430F0E0B1C1438C0B04661BAB6DE1F1B5D78C02B2B74A35EF506BD748A5F42AA629F6A469F98111533E262465CCC888B190362C6C310105313C4708A577A294142B5298104DC1671A144BA0DF5B021F55DA09521F5C518429DE676532D435CAFFC82D91D7AE5B7C899B46D4C6C333FA9ABE7695EE3F9F59ACAC0B2FFD336F39FFF9A27EC917E3CCB5ABFFC7BF4361BB419C11E89102B4AFEFB2CC72BBF15F66F235EE91E

Edited February 2, 2023 by 723wolf

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, 723wolf said:

 

 

Unless you're pvping that Acc in Taunt is unnecessary. It's autohit in pve.

 

You'd be better served with a Taunt Duration IO or a Range IO.

[PLVRIZR]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

 

Unless you're pvping that Acc in Taunt is unnecessary. It's autohit in pve.

 

You'd be better served with a Taunt Duration IO or a Range IO.

 

I *always* one-slot taunt with the Perfect Zinger psi-damage proc 😆