Stalker or Scrapper

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

Firstly I apologise if this has been covered before, I used the search function and found nothing.

 

I'm wanting to make a Staff/Dark character, I have Scrapper experience but I've never played Stalker, I've found conflicting (and possibly outdated) info elsewhere.

What's the difference in playstyle between scrapper/stalker?

[Erydanus]

Stalkers play with a lot more finesse.

 

With a scrapper you just wade in and go bork bork bork on whatever you can and you know you're eventually going to crit for monster damage. You have a lot of hit points and some pretty solid defenses. You're not a tank but if the defender just wings you with a heal now and then you're probably good.

 

In comparison stalkers have much lower hit points and while we do have comparable defenses we can't go front line as carefree as a scrapper. Instead of a small random crit chance on all attacks we have the mechanic of usually critting from hide, and then once we're out in the open we start building up charges of Assassin's Focus. When we get 3, an orange circle lights up on Assassin's Strike and it auto crits. (Assassin's strike used to be a slow melee snipe you only used from hide but now it's a good solid fast attack once you're revealed and in combat.) If you're not dealing with a big group you also have the option of placating a foe and using the traditional from-hide Assassin's strike, but we have an Archetype Origin enhancement that basically takes the burden of re-hiding off.

 

Oh and before you make a stalker you should look over the primary/secondary in a planner. We get an Assassin's Strike and Hide in all our sets and that means something else has to go. For the attack primary it's usually the small area effect melee cone. For the secondary it can vary. In the case of Staff, it's the form toggle that goes - my friend loves his staff stalker but if you wanted to play with forms I think you have to go scrapper.

 

 

[oldskool]

Firstly I apologise if this has been covered before, I used the search function and found nothing.

 

I'm wanting to make a Staff/Dark character, I have Scrapper experience but I've never played Stalker, I've found conflicting (and possibly outdated) info elsewhere.

What's the difference in playstyle between scrapper/stalker?

 

Stalkers do not get Innocuous Strikes, Staff Mastery, or Taunt/Confront.  In place of those, the Stalker gets Assassin's Staff, Build-Up and Placate. 

 

Your only form available to you as a Stalker is Perfection of Body which is a damage increase.  You build PoB passively with your attacks and still spend stacks with Sky Splitter.  The Stalker version is substantially more passive than the other versions. 

 

What you give up from the Scrapper/Tanker/Brute version, in my opinion, for what you gain in Stalker is a wonderful deal.  Stalker Staff single target attack chains can be very strong.  Staff still has good AoE.  You just give up the versatility that the other versions have. 

[Microcosm]

To add to what was said, I like to look at sets and see if they are weaker on single target damage (staff, electric) and play them on a stalker. On the flip side, there are single target heavy sets I'd prefer to play on scrapper or brute side because trading the maybe one aoe in the set for assassin's strike is not worth it in that case. Just the way I approach it.

[Dixa]

stalker staff is the best staff unless you are going for a specific build on a tanker

 

however dark there are tradeoffs. you lose death shroud and cloak of darkness for hide and shadow dweller. so no pbaoe damage aura, and an auto power +def all that is a little over 2% less defense than cloak of darkness. all other powers come later.

 

you won't have staffs form of the soul's -39% end cost like you would on an at that gets the forms.

 

while staff has good aoe I find the single target to lack compared to street justice and street justice has pretty damned good aoe too. but if you got a theme, go for it.

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

you won't have staffs form of the soul's -39% end cost like you would on an at that gets the forms.

 

How detrimental would you say this is?  Would I absolutely choke for power constantly?

 

Also, I've played both to 15 now (not exactly endgame, I know) and I've found something weird, despite similar slotting I do both less damage AND feel squishier as a Scrapper than I do as a Stalker.  Is this something that would continue on through the game or does Scrapper bloom a bit later on?

[oldskool]

you won't have staffs form of the soul's -39% end cost like you would on an at that gets the forms.

 

How detrimental would you say this is?  Would I absolutely choke for power constantly?

 

Also, I've played both to 15 now (not exactly endgame, I know) and I've found something weird, despite similar slotting I do both less damage AND feel squishier as a Scrapper than I do as a Stalker.  Is this something that would continue on through the game or does Scrapper bloom a bit later on?

 

A lot can be said about Stalkers and Hide and how dictating the flow combat is a form of defense.  Scrappers are out in the open by default so that may be what you're experiencing. 

 

Scrapper defense certainly gets better as it goes.  You're a level away from Dark Regeneration, I think it is 16th, and it is a game changer.

 

As to the endurance perks of Scrapper vs Stalker Staff, I'd say it's all about goals.  What are you hoping to do and what do you like out of one vs the other.  Scrappers get the full run of the expensive toggles (Death Shroud and Cloak of Fear) where Stalkers only have Cloak of Fear.  You don't need to run CoF all the time which spares you some end on the Stalker. 

 

That perk is probably a wash in the end.  Once you start really digging into IO's you can alleviate the endurance pains for either one.

[Coyote]

To add to what was said, I like to look at sets and see if they are weaker on single target damage (staff, electric) and play them on a stalker. On the flip side, there are single target heavy sets I'd prefer to play on scrapper or brute side because trading the maybe one aoe in the set for assassin's strike is not worth it in that case. Just the way I approach it.

 

That's my choice also.

...AoE sets --> Stalker

...Single-target sets --> Scrapper with a Damage Aura secondary

[siolfir]

you won't have staffs form of the soul's -39% end cost like you would on an at that gets the forms.

 

How detrimental would you say this is?  Would I absolutely choke for power constantly?

 

Also, I've played both to 15 now (not exactly endgame, I know) and I've found something weird, despite similar slotting I do both less damage AND feel squishier as a Scrapper than I do as a Stalker.  Is this something that would continue on through the game or does Scrapper bloom a bit later on?

 

 

Scrappers have more hit points, both base and max, and the same base defense and resistance modifiers - the higher hit point pool increases their regen as well, and Scrappers can wade in and survive more simply because it actually takes more incoming damage to kill them with all else being equal. The same argument goes for Brutes vs Scrappers - more hit points, leading to more regen with the same resistance and defense numbers, leading to a better chance to survive with the same amount of incoming damage.

 

But Stalkers actively affect the amount of incoming damage.

 

It's already been mentioned that as a Stalker you get to define when the fight starts with almost everything you fight (some exceptions are Rikti drones and Knives of Artemis... probably more that I'm forgetting at the moment), so that provides a limited form of defense at the beginning. On top of that, Assassin's Strike from hide adds an AoE ToHit debuff and fear effect around your target if they survive, providing you additional help with what defense you have in your secondary when you lead off by crippling a mob.

 

In addition burst damage is a great form of defense, especially at low levels - there is a shift in the mid-levels once mobs get enough hit points to survive the initial burst and it becomes less of a benefit and more of a necessity, and eventually you're fighting enemy groups where there are one or two things you have to take out immediately or the fight gets to be crazy. That said, once you get IO sets and fully-slotted powers, you either crank the difficulty up or every AT has enough survivability: before the first shutdown I tanked Recluse for an STF while everyone else took down the towers with an Ice/Rad Corruptor with minimal buffs and a lot of IO sets and AI manipulation (the same Corruptor soloed him as an AV at the end of the Patron arc before IOs - there's a lot to be said about abusing mob AI to stay alive in this game).

 

On the damage end, you probably feel as though you're doing more damage because you actually are doing more (single target) damage: Assassin's Strike is a strong attack that Stalkers get at level 6, where most melee sets for the other ATs (Scrapper, Brute, and especially Tanker) have to wait a while to get something that hits that hard - you simply have a better attack chain at low levels, at the cost of chewing through your endurance faster. Since you can recover after each spawn it's not an issue as long as you can make it through each group.

 

And all of this is based on solo play: on teams you just extra criticals anytime someone is nearby (I forget the radius, it's 10% base out of hide + 3% per teammate within I think 30'?), and your don't have as many incoming attacks because your Threat level (a multiplier value used by mob AI that's combined with damage and other flags and factors to determine who to attack) is lower than a Scrapper's. Stalkers (generally) have fewer AoEs and take out their single targets quickly, so they don't get a lot of mob attention on teams unless they run ahead.

[marcussmythe]

Assuming equivalent power set choices (the powerset is available to both, and the Stalker version loses nothing you will terribly miss) play a Stalker.  You may find in some instances the Stalker version is a straight upgrade of its Scrapper Cousin (notable invuln).

[Solarverse]

Out of all these responses, the most important thing was missed in the confusion; Stalker Critt more often than Scrappers.

 

As a Scrapper, my Critts were far and few between. As a Stalker, I seem to Critt constantly. Sometimes three back to back, but on average, maybe every other hit, to every three hits. It's random, but Critts happen like fireworks.

 

A Scrapper? Not so much.

[Erydanus]

Maybe that's why Scrappers get a +crit chance enhancement in their ATO set.

[Solarverse]

Maybe that's why Scrappers get a +crit chance enhancement in their ATO set.

 

Sure makes a lot of sense. Scrappers have the highest base damage values, even more so than Brutes. So I can't say Scrappers don't have their appeal. However, over all, I would take a Stalker over a Scrapper if I had to chose based on damage alone. Stalkers seem to be the best melee class for single target damage, even in a sustained way. However, Brutes and Scrappers will out survive a Stalker, so their sustained damage would be more if the fight gets tough enough to take the Stalker down.

[FUBARczar]

Both are great and both have great ATOs

 

When I play scrapper, I play as a tank (that can't hold aggro  hehe)

 

When I play as a Stalker I am actually more team oriented.  And feel a little more engaged.  It's kinda more fun because I get to pick and choose my spots (totally can be just a mindset thing).  When to engage, when to sneak, etc.  Also I get to choose between Opening with AS on the Bosses, or with a T9/T8 attack and then AS, or AOE 1st...

 

Personally I don't think the damage aura is a great loss, and Staff is really good on a Stalker too

 

Stalker ATO also means more Build Up!  I get double B/U a lot, along with more crits, with the hide ATO proc.