Why DFB is annoying

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

redside needs xp buffs.  telling you, they'll move, that day.

 

Villains have had access to P2W XP boosters the whole time that I have been playing on Homecoming.

My villains use x2XP buffs from the get go.

 

I see you repeating this and it makes no sense to me.

 

And, seriously, most players are here to play City of "Heroes" and not to play villains.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

It'd be nice to go back to that instead of "any DFB" in chat ad infinitum.

 

Well, one way to stop that is run low level teams for the content you want to play and use /lfg to recruit for it.

It won't be just recruiting for DFB in /lfg if you do that.

[TheOtherTed]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

It's a neat sentiment, but I think a better resource would be if players were made better aware of the various guides on these forums...

While I get why it's tempting to point to a guide, IMO it sort of spoils the fun of running a scripted instance for the first time.  It's one thing to team with a group of players who know the instance and learning from them.  It's quite another to "do your homework" and read a dry, second-person, "this is the only right way" sort of document about something you've never done.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I learn best when I learn from other people, up until the point where I have the tools and experience to judge (or even write) such documents myself.

 

I won't go into details, but I had a few experiences like the OP's on live - an almost identical experience with DFB, and other experiences with teams that flat-out failed in terms of leadership or teaching (and one SG group that was so in sync, so devastatingly efficient, and so eerily quiet that I swore I'd never team with them again).  If the OP is willing to act as a DFB guide, I say more power to the OP.

 

As a side note, I think the stakes in DFB are too high.  The fights are too easy (unless you're badging), the rewards are too great, and it quicly took on an aspect of "all business no fun" even before the shutdown.  Thus, too many people treat it like a 40-person WOW raid (maybe some exaggeration there), thus ruining its fun and its opportunity for bonding over shared experience.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by TheOtherTed
The world may never know.

[SteelRat70]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Well, one way to stop that is run low level teams for the content you want to play and use /lfg to recruit for it.

It won't be just recruiting for DFB in /lfg if you do that.

For reference, I don't recruit for DFB, because I don't play it any more.

Secondly, I have run teams in KR and Hollows in the past, but there isn't much uptake on it generally.  Also, I run a team at work, as well as being an organiser for a social group I'm part of - and well, there's a certain amount of "Why does it always have to be me" in the back of my head, so I'm less inclined to want to do that regularly when I'm at play.

I do take the point though, that if everyone adopted the "someone else can do it" mentality no one would do it at all and we'd be in the situation we're currently in.

[SeraphimKensai]

I'll typically participate in a DFB or DIB if I see someone struggling to fill the team. I'm most often on a lvl 50 character. And yes despite some of the previous comments, I find speeding TFs and trials fun as it adds another element to it, I'm also one of the rare people that will run TFs with settings like enemies buffed, enhancements do nothing, etc. on the occasion that the mood strikes (though if I'm not soloing a TF, I'll let the team know the game plan ahead of time when I recruit).

 

When I run a DFB or DIB I'm primarily there because I'm bored and wanted to be "helpful", or probably more accurately perceived as being "helpful". Occasionally someone is just back to the game or so they claim and I may toss them a purple recipe or enhancement in the spam of combat from time to time. Otherwise it's let's help you get the badges and a bit of XP, and then vaya con dios for me.

 

There is a lot of helpful tips in this thread, but the best thing is just getting experience doing the content. Mastery will come with time.

 

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I see you repeating this and it makes no sense to me.

i mean 2x of 2x if you took the booster - base 2x. so... quadra-expeeee! you think Im daft?

 

planetside used to do this based on faction population, and it has an amazing effect on balancing the player pool distribution.

 

if they did it in cycles (red moon, gold bloom, blue tune), or made it build like the powers you unlock for alignment... itd probably cause waves of folks moving back and forth with. simply for the buff.

 

red side is that good, imo. but suffers from availability of folks starting groups in the 10-30s.

 

you see folk over for their patron unlocks, but it can be ghost towny aside.

[Xtypething]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

And, seriously, most players are here to play City of "Heroes" and not to play villains.

 

Is there a general feeling for why that is? I mean obviously most people want to be good, but there's some interesting content on the villain side. Back 20 years ago, the ATs were unique on each side. You couldn't play a MM hero, for instance. That was the appeal for me. But now...

 

I think if I was going to design a game like this for the modern era, I would just let people do their thing, make their choices, and be seen as the heroes or villains they choose to be. Seems too limiting to have to choose between good and evil at character creation. It's a bit like being asked to choose between good and evil on your baby's birth certificate.

[SteelRat70]

10 minutes ago, honoroit said:

you think Im daft?

Pretty much, yes.

Even with what amounts to pretty much permanently available double XP, you can pretty much get 1 to 50 in less than a day fairly easily.

 

With Quad XP, not only would that pretty much remove the point or reason for a levelling process, the game mission and zone level range mechanic would make that counter productive; you'd out level most contacts pretty quickly meaning that you wouldn't experience all of that "better redside content" anyway.

Hell, you might as well make the level 1 character build a Vet level so that you start at 50 with the Alpha unlocked and the levelling and power unlocks are just the incarnate slots.  Any content you then want to do you do for Oro.  From what I see, there's a number of people who do that anyway, using the AE as a means to get to that level 50 + Alpha starting place more quickly.  The only reason to do any sub 50 content would be to fund the slots, but most vet players can fund that from other characters anyway - and again, even then the speed at which it's possible to earn inf and get a max level character with a good chunk of monies means that the vast majority of the playerbase (I would imagine, I don't know this for sure) have at least 1 or 2 50s already and only absolute newbies don't have that opportunity.

For the record, let me make it clear that I'm not saying this is the way things SHOULD be, only what they might as well be with what you're suggesting and that is fundamentally a Bad Thing imo.  On the other hand, even as things stand at the moment, we're not very far away from that even now.

[Xtypething]

3 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

 you can pretty much get 1 to 50 in less than a day fairly easily.

 

Has there been any discussion of a "test server"? Or a "trainer", or whatever term you like? I'm in total agreement with the people saying power leveling is a waste, you miss out on content, you wind up broke, or you have no clue how to play your new character, and so on. Totally get all that.

 

But there are times when I just want to know - how much better would this hero be with that secondary instead of this one? Or that travel power instead of this one, or slotted for Def instead of Dmg, or whatever. Or how hard is it really, to solo with a blaster? But the thought of running another alt through Hellion missions in Atlas just makes me throw up a little.

 

Hence, power leveling. A test server where you could just roll up a level 50 and respec all evening while your lasagna is baking would be a nice alternative. And all the end-game aficionados could congregate there and compare their min-max builds. Just thinking out loud.

[honoroit]

50 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

Pretty much, yes.

 

OK, that's fine - how might one go about encouraging players to play red / provide incentive to do so? pretending one wanted to.

[SeraphimKensai]

44 minutes ago, Xtypething said:

 

Has there been any discussion of a "test server"? Or a "trainer", or whatever term you like? I'm in total agreement with the people saying power leveling is a waste, you miss out on content, you wind up broke, or you have no clue how to play your new character, and so on. Totally get all that.

 

But there are times when I just want to know - how much better would this hero be with that secondary instead of this one? Or that travel power instead of this one, or slotted for Def instead of Dmg, or whatever. Or how hard is it really, to solo with a blaster? But the thought of running another alt through Hellion missions in Atlas just makes me throw up a little.

 

Hence, power leveling. A test server where you could just roll up a level 50 and respec all evening while your lasagna is baking would be a nice alternative. And all the end-game aficionados could congregate there and compare their min-max builds. Just thinking out loud.

There is a test server where you can pop to lvl 50, get free IOs and go test your concept for free. It gets wiped every once in awhile. There's means to copy over your actual characters to it as well up above. By the server status stuff.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Xtypething said:

 

Has there been any discussion of a "test server"? Or a "trainer", or whatever term you like? I'm in total agreement with the people saying power leveling is a waste, you miss out on content, you wind up broke, or you have no clue how to play your new character, and so on. Totally get all that.

 

But there are times when I just want to know - how much better would this hero be with that secondary instead of this one? Or that travel power instead of this one, or slotted for Def instead of Dmg, or whatever. Or how hard is it really, to solo with a blaster? But the thought of running another alt through Hellion missions in Atlas just makes me throw up a little.

 

Hence, power leveling. A test server where you could just roll up a level 50 and respec all evening while your lasagna is baking would be a nice alternative. And all the end-game aficionados could congregate there and compare their min-max builds. Just thinking out loud.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/57-homecoming-beta/

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Xtypething said:

Is there a general feeling for why that is?

 

It isn't.  Some people just like projecting.  They look at the fact blueside has far more content, more task forces, more missions, more zones, more everything (hell, it even has better weather) ... and then they say "Well clearly people just don't like playing bad guys!"

 

There is no way any significant number of players give two shits (or even one) about the morality of their characters.  Hell, the one server devoted more to roleplaying than any other even has a LARGER proportion of its population as villains than any other server.  Note to people gearing up angry replies: This doesn't mean YOU don't care.  It means not a lot of people do.  Most people engage with this game mechanically and that's all.  They enjoy playing it, not pretending to be heroes.  For the most part.

 

The problem with any game that has factions is you're going to be extremely lucky if those factions ever stay in balance.  Once one side gets more people, the mere fact it has more people attracts more people.  Without some incentive to drive people towards whichever side has fewer members, it's an unstable system.  They sort of acknowledged they couldn't (or wouldn't) fix it when Going Rogue came out and introduced side-switching.  But they didn't go far enough dropping those barriers.  People need to be able to join teams from anywhere.  Even just having to cross sides to join a red team is a negative that helps prevent people from even bothering.  And why be a Rogue when it causes all sorts of problems teaming blueside where all the teams usually are running?

[Paradox Fate]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

 

OK, that's fine - how might one go about encouraging players to play red / provide incentive to do so? pretending one wanted to.

 

One can start a 'Villain Day', along with putting up a SG specifically for running Red Side content that offers similar features like the usual travel hubs, with a bit of a proper villain base flair.

 

It does not need to be as frequent as a Tanker Tuesdays, but often enough that people come over or log in their Red Side chars to join up.

[honoroit]

20 minutes ago, ZemX said:

People need to be able to join teams from anywhere

 

well put in rest of your post.

 

above quote: this feature sorta already exists, albeit you need to be on the same map as a gold'ish type. unfortunatelt, this gets you left off invites as people cant be fussed waiting for you to be on map, or misunderstand the error message they get when trying to, and are flooded with other invite requests.

 

opening it up would greatly increase the place space, mission diversity, all sorts.  

 

the faction barrier doesnt really need to be there, or maybe its so all over the code base its a pain?

 

but they have it working, implemented, those that can float between. just with odd restrictions which mean folks dont do it (hampers group formation)

[ZemX]

38 minutes ago, honoroit said:

the faction barrier doesnt really need to be there, or maybe its so all over the code base its a pain?

 

Probably this.  Just the fact you can get booted from a mixed team when you go to a co-op zone like Ouroboros shows how brittle that code likely is.

 

It was probably a massive hack just getting Going Rogue working in the first place back on Live.  I bet the HC devs don't want to go near it with a 100ft pole. 🤪

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Probably this.  Just the fact you can get booted from a mixed team when you go to a co-op zone like Ouroboros shows how brittle that code likely is.

 

It was probably a massive hack just getting Going Rogue working in the first place back on Live.  I bet the HC devs don't want to go near it with a 100ft pole. 🤪

 

so, im back at solution: redside quadra-xp!

[Paradox Fate]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

 

so, im back at solution: redside quadra-xp!

 

Wouldn't that just redirect AE powerleveling towards that side instead of players doing normal content? Also, you really, really, would outlevel story arc contacts/paper missions early on.  🤔

Edited March 21, 2023 by Paradox Fate

[twozerofoxtrot]

8 hours ago, ZemX said:

Just the fact you can get booted from a mixed team when you go to a co-op zone like Ouroboros shows how brittle that code likely is.

 

Accurate. Worth noting that Ouro being a co-op zone is an HC exclusive thing. It wasn't designed to be, so that's probably part of why it's janky.

[Ironblade]

23 hours ago, Xtypething said:

Where am I? How can I even answer that? I'm in the last place we both were. Where else could I be?

 

And the guy dropped me. Before I could figure out how to answer.

I'm sure you've figured this out by now, but there was an idiot on that DFB and it wasn't you.

 

 

23 hours ago, Xtypething said:

I'm actually thinking about starting an alt just to run DFB missions, so I can ask, "Anyone new to DFB?" And make it a welcoming experience. I probably won't do that, but it's a thought I'm having.

I did this back in the day to introduce new players to the game and meet new players.  There was no DFB so I made a character and ran him through Atlas Park and The Hollows.  After finishing the Hollows arc, I'd delete and recreate him.

 

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

For reference, I don't recruit for DFB, because I don't play it any more.

 

I didn't indicate you did.

I was suggesting that you recruit for the alternate low-level content that you suggested.

 

12 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

Secondly, I have run teams in KR and Hollows in the past, but there isn't much uptake on it generally.

 

I often join low-level teams if I see there is recruitment for them.

I'm not on all the time or on all the servers at the same time, but some "uptake" would be better than "no uptake".

Since leveling is faster in the DFB, I'm assuming running around in the zones is generally less desirable to many players.

 

I haven't run in Kings Row or the Hollows for a while now for my own reasons.

But I will say that I do not enjoy the TwinShot or Hasherby (sp?) arcs.

If I want to level up, I'll run the lake and then do a DFB or two before continuing on with content. 

I do wish the game would grant you access to your origin contacts through the contact system as you leveled - rather than being cut-off from that group of missions simply because you didn't get the next origin contact as you out-leveled the first one.

 

But I do think you are hitting part of the issue here.

Players at level 1 are looking to get at least a couple of levels under their belts before they go to the Hollows or King Row, and that is generally to level 8 - at which point, I'm trying to get on a Posi 1 team for a good number of my characters.

 

12 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

Also, I run a team at work, as well as being an organiser for a social group I'm part of - and well, there's a certain amount of "Why does it always have to be me" in the back of my head, so I'm less inclined to want to do that regularly when I'm at play.

 

In regard to running teams, I understand.

To some extent, I go out of my way to run teams because I want to support the community.

I'm not saying that to imply you should have any sense of obligation and fully understand that  you are trying to "escape to fantasy" by playing the game.

 

At the same time, I can't see the point about complaining about people that are recruiting for teams simply because they aren't recruiting for the kind of content that you would like to play.

 

13 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

I do take the point though, that if everyone adopted the "someone else can do it" mentality no one would do it at all and we'd be in the situation we're currently in.

 

Well, I don't think that is true.

During the times that I play with my sg and associates, I don't recruit. [One of the players takes frequent and spontaneous bathroom breaks and I don't feel morally-correct/proper-gamesmanship (I know, sort of misuse of the word) recruiting others into that situation when I'm against power-leveling, doorsitting, and farming.]

I know when I'm recruiting, I'm looking at who is online and seeing what content that I think I can get a team together and run.

Sometimes that is based on what I feel "the need" for the server is (sub-50 and generally sub-35).

Often times that is DFB. When I see people calling out for a DFB, but not recruiting for it - or - I see that there are 10-15 characters sub-8 not in missions, I'll recruit for a DFB.

Then I go up the levels seeing what kind of team I can get together. I will admit, that in most cases these days, that is a task force.

[biostem]

13 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

there's a certain amount of "Why does it always have to be me"

As a tangent, it always bugs me when I step up to start a team, others eagerly join, then become overly critical about the XP/hour we're generating or otherwise don't like how the team is performing - it's like, "YOU could have started your own team at any point, but nooo... you were too lazy so had to tear down someone else's team instead."

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

i mean 2x of 2x if you took the booster - base 2x. so... quadra-expeeee! you think Im daft?

 

Yes. 

If you mean that the DEVs should double the XP (boosted or not) for simply playing villain content, then I agree with that statement.

If you meant that you didn't word it so it meant that, so again, I agree.

 

There is no reason that the DEVs should reward villains simply for playing villain content.

 

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

planetside used to do this based on faction population, and it has an amazing effect on balancing the player pool distribution.

 

I haven't checked recently, but Planetside 2 still does this as far as I know.

You get a percentage increase of XP based on the percentage imbalance to the other sides. it isn't a cut-and-dry double xp boost if your faction has less than 33% of the population on that continent.

 

Also, there is no need for faction-balance in City of Heroes. It isn't Heroes vs Villains vs Praetorians PVP where you want a relatively equal number of players battling against each other.

 

If you want to go for some kind of PVP reward bonus in PVP zones for actively fighting in a PVP zone, I wouldn't support that either because multiboxing is allowed.

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

if they did it in cycles (red moon, gold bloom, blue tune), or made it build like the powers you unlock for alignment... itd probably cause waves of folks moving back and forth with. simply for the buff.

 

There is no reason for force players to play one side or the other.

The incentive used to be the archetypes that you had access to, but we know that many players simply got around that once the alignment system was introduced by making a villain and then moving them along the alignment spectrum to some degree or another to be able to have a character with a villain archetype on the hero side.

I think Homecoming was correct in simply opening up all the archetypes to all characters during character creation.

 

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

red side is that good, imo. but suffers from availability of folks starting groups in the 10-30s.

 

Being a villian is "good" makes no sense.

It is one of the arguments that villains players have been using since before the Sunset.

If being a villain is so "good", then it wouldn't be villainy would it?

 

"a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot." - google it.

 

Villains are by definition "evil"

Calling it the "red" side - instead of what it is (villain) - is intentional obfuscation of that fact, imo.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by UltraAlt
more clarification on Planetside 2 xp

[honoroit]

huh?

 

its just to get more folks on red maps. ^

 

im not sure a game where we pound things as main interaction is best study of that interaction as exemplar/deficit of virtue, clean split by faction.  

Edited March 22, 2023 by honoroit

[UltraAlt]

13 hours ago, Xtypething said:

Is there a general feeling for why that is?

 

I can only speak from my own feelings and what I have observed.

The game is City of Heroes.

City of Villains was added to City of Heroes. Even though it was technically listed as a separate game originally, you couldn't have a base in City of Heroes unless you bought and installed City of Villains along with it. Also City of Villains gave you additional character slots for CoH.

 

CoV was a way to try to get more money out of the players. Was it to explore villainy? Yeah, sort of, but they knew they had to give something to the heroes to get them to buy it and maybe play it.

 

15 hours ago, Xtypething said:

Back 20 years ago, the ATs were unique on each side

 

CoH hadn't been released 20 years ago, let alone CoV, but I guess that's just a fudge on the timing. 

 

It is true that you couldn't play the villain archetypes as heroes until 5 years after City of Villains was released when City of Heroes: Going Rogue was released and the alignment system was added to the City of Heroes. By that point, City of Villains had been merged into City of Heroes and City of Heroes: Good and Evil edition had been released and everyone that had City of Heroes or City of Villains that did not have the other were grandfathered in to the other game.

 

From my point of view, the merger of the two games and the alignment system were added because there were alway far, far fewer villain characters than there were hero characters. Even back then, people that were playing villain characters were complaining about having no one to team with.

 

I played CoV for a while because I bought it. I randomly played villains at other times because was in the RO (Repeat Offenders Global supergroup that had multiple supergroups - maybe even across multiple servers... I can't remember that much for sure at this point) or a friend wanted to run villains for the night. I think I had one villian make it to level 50 before I stopped subscribing almost exactly a year before the sunset.

Honestly, I never really enjoyed City of Villains for multiple reasons, but I didn't dislike it as much as Going Rogue/Praetorian content.

I purchased City of Heroes in order to play superheroes.

 

15 hours ago, Xtypething said:

I think if I was going to design a game like this for the modern era, I would just let people do their thing, make their choices, and be seen as the heroes or villains they choose to be.

 

If I was designing one, I would start having morality tracking from the get go. Do what you want, but other people and other "groups" in the game will react to you based on your behavior. Even if you start as a hero, if you behave in a villainous manner, you become known "in the City" as a villain.

 

15 hours ago, Xtypething said:

Seems too limiting to have to choose between good and evil at character creation.

 

It depends upon the game environment, and the way that Homecoming is now, you can go change your alignment as soon as your character zones into the game for the first time if you want to.

But  your point was taken by Going Rogue. You don't choose your alignment  until you get to level 14 or something, so that option is there if  you want it. Go Rogue.

 

15 hours ago, Xtypething said:

It's a bit like being asked to choose between good and evil on your baby's birth certificate.

 

nothing like that from my standpoint.