Suggestions for Development and testing

[Rudra]

It's not a question of not wanting data. It's a question of community perception. As far as the community goes, would it make the slightest bit of difference if the devs did a secret poll and acted on the results that only they could see the results of as opposed to the devs combing through the game's data to draw their own conclusions and act on? As far as the community is concerned? It would still be the devs doing secret squirrel stuff with nothing for us to see or understand. So nothing would really change, because no one would understand what was going on in dev world any more than we did before this thread was started. If anything, it would most likely lead to angry players. "I know for a fact that option C was the preferred one! Everyone I know or spoke with voted for option C! What did the devs do though? They went with option A! Our voices don't matter!"

 

Edit: And of course I wind up starting a new page so my comment is floating in La La Land with no references for what it is about. This comment is in response to @Rigged's last comment on the preceding page.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Rudra

[Rigged]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

because that's how you get replay value out of the game, not killing council or PI radios 5% faster,

 

3 hours ago, Zect said:

It would've been real easy for them to just make "Fire blast, but with 50% more dps", and it would've been the most popular set ever.

 

People are not keen on new overpowered sets. This is a misconception.

 

Powergamers do not actually want a new, game-breaking set that forces them to reroll in order to become king again. What they want is for their specific main that they have become attached to to have no nerfs ever and forever be the best. This is not possible because every Powergamer compromises just a little on "best" for their specific playstyle and theme, so every min-maxer has different ideas on which set should get all the goodies. They want to generously support the "buffing of weaker sets to match" when in reality this comes with the silent caveat of "but not better than my main". When a new, game-breaking set arrives, they all have to reroll and then deal with how the new set differs on their preferred playstyle, which they do not like. Powergamers are not actually that interested in power creep. Power creep threatens the dominance of their main.

 

Similarly, people who are interested in builds (min-maxers) are also not interested in unlimited game-breaking new sets. This ruins build variety and forces builds towards very limited selections. There is only so much fun you can get from what is essentially the same build. Unlike powergamers, min-maxers do want there to be better parity between the powersets, because that encourages build diversity. I happen to be in this category, and honestly it annoyed me to no end the degree that Titan Weapons dominated the DPS charts for ages, because EVERY build I made had to compete with it. I was glad that TW was nerfed by HC so that the disparity was no longer insurmountable. However, we generally don't object to power creep as long as that power creep is relatively even or reduces disparity. This is, for instance, why min-maxers love the proc meta - it is power creep that has relatively even effects and vastly improves build diversity. All of a sudden, DPS is no longer limited to three or so specific ATs! Lots of old underperforming powersets suddenly became viable!

 

Very few people actually want a new gamebreaking set that kicks all the older ones to the curb. Sure, they will roll it and play it, but that's just FOMO and keeping up with the Joneses. You might say "People should not think so much about performance", but the fact is that performance affects your game experience. If you play one set and you feel you are contributing much less than your teammates, that affects your fun. The important thing about balance is that it should provide at least the deniability of roughly equal performance, so that players don't get buyer's remorse. This means nerfs, and I get that the community is much more adverse to this than I am.

 

From what I can tell about the Storm Call issues (I have not tested or played it myself, having little interest), the reason it is so controversial is because the set appeals to a much narrower list of playstyles. The issue is one of market appeal, not simply power. Storm Call is noticeably weaker, and also cumbersome, in the context of mobile, fast clearing that so many groups end up being, which many players end up being pushed into simply because that's how (honestly here) the most active, common group members like it. And this does not change that meta, it just isn't particularly effective at it.

 

From what I can see, this set looks pretty good for a solo corruptor where the dots from the t9 interact nicely with the inherent and there is enough time for it to ramp up. But that's pretty niche, and Ice kind of does this already so people in that niche already have a thematically similar set for their playstyle.

[Rigged]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And of course I wind up starting a new page so my comment is floating in La La Land with no references for what it is about. This comment is in response to @Rigged's last comment on the preceding page.

 

I have encountered this on this forum before and I find it helps to quote at least part of the post I am replying to, so that it is easier to follow. This also helps when someone else posts while you are typing your response, which as I mentioned is what happened to me yesterday.

 

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As far as the community goes, would it make the slightest bit of difference if the devs did a secret poll and acted on the results that only they could see the results of as opposed to the devs combing through the game's data to draw their own conclusions and act on? As far as the community is concerned?

 

Yes, it would. I am serious. Like I said, you will never be able to satisfy the conspiracy-theorist-persecution-fetish types who are going to hate you no matter what. This is unavoidable. Fortunately, most of them seem to have gravitated towards a different server. But lots of the people in the Storm Call thread and this one are not so insistent. This language: "slightest bit of difference", "would it change anything at all" - these insinuate that all the detractors are the same and would never accept efforts to better manage community expectations, and that perspective is quite frankly reductive. If you are expecting that measures must reduce toxicity to zero before consideration, then yes you will be disappointed. Consider that there are lots of MMO communities with varying levels of toxicity. I would point out that community management goes a very long way towards determining which end of the scale that community falls on.

 

I have played a lot of MMOs and have been active on forums every time (I like reading rather than listening). It is very clear that communication and managing expectations is what makes the difference. In this very thread the dev response has helped immensely towards the concerns of detractors.

[Wravis]

  

4 hours ago, Zect said:

 

MMO players are kids: they will never vote to have less candy, even if it rots their teeth. Putting development decisions to a vote will also merely result in a tyranny of the majority, where only the dominant meta (and powersets that jive with it) ever get development effort. Terrible idea - let's all hope it won't ever happen.

 

Good start! Let's insult everyone for having a different opinion.

  

4 hours ago, Zect said:

I'm so thrilled that Cat 5 isn't a standard "click 2 buttons and delete all non-bosses" nuke, and such an unconventional idea would never have been brought to life were it put to a vote. Players would've chosen the familiar over the innovative, the meta-friendly over the meta-breaking. I think Homecoming team has performed superbly this time round and I applaud their efforts to bring us something different and varied, because that's how you get replay value out of the game, not killing council or PI radios 5% faster,

 Did you know that there are people who play this game who don't like to feel weak, that don't just slam through PI radios? Did you know that there is nothing wrong with people who spam PI Radios?

Do you realize that PI Radio spamming IS replay? That's what people are doing. That's replay value. It's just not the kind that you like. That doesn't make it invalid.
 

4 hours ago, Zect said:

Finally, since the popularity of homecoming's homebrew sets was criticized: popularity and usage rates are a terrible metric to judge a set's success by (though it's certainly one that creators of all kinds can't help but value). Different powersets appeal to different playstyles. This means that a powerset that is only liked by a few players is still an asset as it brings enjoyment to a group of players who otherwise would not engage with the game at all, therefore, giving the game a larger audience than otherwise. There's a reason Baskin-robbins has 31 flavors on sale, with the associated logistical headache, instead of only selling peanut butter chocolate.

Baskin Robbins doesn't keep flavors that no one buys. They don't leave flavors tasting terrible. They fix flavors that aren't good. If customers don't buy a flavor, they get rid of it and replace it with something better.

  

4 hours ago, Zect said:

Overall, I approve strongly of homecoming team's very measured approach to development, and this includes wisely not overtuning sets on release because compensating nerfs are very difficult to push through. It would've been real easy for them to just make "Fire blast, but with 50% more dps", and it would've been the most popular set ever. Instead, we get art. Maybe there is a God after all.

Zect has spoken. Praise God.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Wravis

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

I have encountered this on this forum before and I find it helps to quote at least part of the post I am replying to, so that it is easier to follow. This also helps when someone else posts while you are typing your response, which as I mentioned is what happened to me yesterday.

 

 

Yes, it would. I am serious. Like I said, you will never be able to satisfy the conspiracy-theorist-persecution-fetish types who are going to hate you no matter what. This is unavoidable. Fortunately, most of them seem to have gravitated towards a different server. But lots of the people in the Storm Call thread and this one are not so insistent. This language: "slightest bit of difference", "would it change anything at all" - these insinuate that all the detractors are the same and would never accept efforts to better manage community expectations, and that perspective is quite frankly reductive. If you are expecting that measures must reduce toxicity to zero before consideration, then yes you will be disappointed. Consider that there are lots of MMO communities with varying levels of toxicity. I would point out that community management goes a very long way towards determining which end of the scale that community falls on.

 

I have played a lot of MMOs and have been active on forums every time (I like reading rather than listening). It is very clear that communication and managing expectations is what makes the difference. In this very thread the dev response has helped immensely towards the concerns of detractors.

Except a blind poll doesn't manage expectations. A poll can be a good source of information depending on the sampling size, but in something as interactive as a video game where the developers are looking at changing or adding content, a blind poll where the community is as invested and involved in the game as CoX does not help manage expectations. The dev including in a focused feedback thread on what specifically the dev is looking for, what is still up for change, what it would take to add something to also be up for change, and what the dev is going for with the power, set, or arc helps manage expectations.

 

(Edit: Nor can a poll, blind or open, give nuanced feedback. Which in a game like CoX, is often necessary.)

Edited April 27, 2023 by Rudra

[Number Six]

There's one other thing that HC devs do that provides invaluable feedback -- as good as the data analysis (which they also do) or polling or whatever else -- something that a few Cryptic/Paragon devs did but most did not -- and that's play the game. Every single volunteer dev was a long-time player first and continues to be to this day on their regular non-dev account. While they do that, they group with and engage with various parts of the community and hear all about what they're thinking.

 

That includes people who don't visit the forums, who don't hang out on discord, who would never participate in an online poll*. Their feedback matters too, and it affects planning and project priorities the same as any other channel for feedback does.

 

* I still am of the opinion that any such poll would only further increase inter-group resentment because it would be perceived as being better advertised to forumgoers, or on Discord, or whichever is the opposite of whoever feels like they weren't included in it.

[Captain Fabulous]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

Evidence that you're just being dishonest: 

 In that post I say "the Devs have been listening" and making tweaks and changes.  I am not "whining about how no one was paying attention to my demands.  I

In fact, I posted THIS post also, thanking the Devs for the changes they DID make to duration and VFX on Storm Cell.  Booper, specifically, was amazing at going back and forth with our concerns to the Devs.
 

We were doing EXACTLY what the Forums said we should be doing, and while you KEEP SAYING that it was brought here pretty much ready to go and we were only supposed to look for bug fixes, we were told by Booper the exact opposite, and also that you really should stop commenting about how annoying our ideas were to you.

 

And I quote: "The set does not come to Brainstorm ready to go. We don't do business that way. We are always looking at the feedback and trying to find ways to improve on the set that keeps balance in a good spot. This is a good place to get fresh eyes on a subject in hopes of identifying concerns that were overlooked during the internal development phase and closed beta phase.

 

For example, a few days ago I pitched an idea to address a concern that I felt had a lot of merit. A 90s cooldown on Storm Cell may be too harsh on a low level character (where enhancement slots and other sources of recharge buffs are very limited). The overwhelming response was a 40s fixed cooldown was not desirable, so I didn't pursue that option. But that is still an example where we are listening to the feedback from both test servers and trying to find solutions to problems that we agree need to be addressed."

And lets not pretend you ALSO weren't repeatedly asking for the things you wanted, which were VFX changes.
 

I don't have the patience to go thru 27 pages and find all the repetitive demanding you did, insisting the set was broken and it had to be redone exactly as you wanted it. The fact you started this thread to whine and cry some more after the beta thread was locked just proves my point.

Yeah, I asked for VFX changes. Once. Then after I deleted all my posts I asked again. And then thanked Booper and provided feedback on the change. OMG what HUBRIS I have! 🙄

[Ruin Mage]

Polls would do nothing good. Polls can be botted. Polls can be manipulated in any number of ways.

That being said, I can also see no harm in trying them once.  If only because I can be horribly petty and going "See how absolutely useless or damaging that poll was?" is a level of 'I told you so' I'm here for. That or being proved wrong.

[Puma]

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

Polls would do nothing good. Polls can be botted. Polls can be manipulated in any number of ways.

That being said, I can also see no harm in trying them once.  If only because I can be horribly petty and going "See how absolutely useless or damaging that poll was?" is a level of 'I told you so' I'm here for. That or being proved wrong.

I mean, what are your thoughts on these two posts by Devs, then, and how they played out?
 

 

 

The first is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about:  here is our vision, now what do you all think about that, good/bad/and ugly?  My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts. 

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Puma said:

The first is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about:  here is our vision, now what do you all think about that, good/bad/and ugly?  My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts. 

Except that it is the discussion that leads from limited options a single person may be able to think up to completely new ideas the post originator never considered or improvements on the post originator's idea that may be more appealing to a much larger group. A blind poll where no one can see how the votes are going or give their feedback on the provided options limits the responses to which of a limited group of ideas others are more interested in and not what those players may actually be interested in that would fall under the same idea. Regardless of whether that poll was originated by a dev or anyone else. It doesn't matter how creative a person is, no one can think of everything, even within a limited scope such as a specific concept the idea originator may have. A more developed suggestion derived from the combined feedback of others gives the devs more data (from reading the back and forth on the idea) and options than any poll anyone can come up with.

[Ruin Mage]

6 minutes ago, Puma said:

here is our vision, now what do you all think about that, good/bad/and ugly?  My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts. 

To be very specific, I find the actual poll stuff to be a bad idea. Like the actual poll making with multiple answers/choices that people can vote on without explaining themselves. Those polls are what I absolutely want to never be attached to development. Very few games do this and those that do aren't MMORPGs. The last poll I've seen tied to a game development was for a bullet heaven/hell in the style of Vampire Survivors. That or Destiny 2 but that poll was for a cosmetic thing. No game, bar one, in my recent experience (read: I don't play all the games in the world and my experience will differ.) has ever used a poll for game-affecting development decisions. In that I also see no reason for us to start trying.

I am not against (and why would I be?) the devs going 'Okay, what do you think about x?' and it being a 'poll' where people have to actually write their thoughts. A thread where you have to be coherent and on topic. I mention that specifically because people tend to have the tendency to go after what someone says. I've done it when someone has a really dog breath stink of a take, but I need to not. However, in that same vein, people (to iterate I'm speaking generally/broadly and it doesn't apply to everyone) need to learn how to convey themselves better. To not read something and go "DOGSHIT." and just that.

That being said? I do not trust this community to not make those threads horrible. Either horrible for the GMs to moderate or horrible in that nothing of any great value comes of it. Cynicism, pessimism, or whatever it is prevents me from seeing community input in development as being a net positive outside of the Beta testing spheres. Now, on the flip side, I'm all for us getting previews or little snippets of what's being worked on next. This way people know what to expect to be coming in a set of months. I'd obviously want teasers for what's set in stone rather than up in the air, but baits and trickery aren't exactly HC's nature.

[Number Six]

44 minutes ago, Puma said:

I mean, what are your thoughts on these two posts by Devs, then, and how they played out?

 

If you're going to ask that, don't leave out my "favorite" example of trying to solicit community input on design direction, even more relevant since it relates to powers:

 

(And the 27 pages that follow)

[Bionic_Flea]

46 minutes ago, Puma said:

My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts. 

 

The forums would start arguments anyway, even if only the devs could see the results.  My prediction: 

"I voted for A.  Everyone knows A is the best"

"What are you talking about?  Only Nazis like A.  C is where it's at."

"Everything is great!  Be kind to our volunteer devs."

"Nerf regen."

"Why only choices A through D?  All of my friends really want Z!"

[Faultline]

15 hours ago, Puma said:

Understandable, but in the future, it would be nice to know the deadlines as testers, since some of us are taking time out of our days to purposefully test things with various iterations, datamine, etc.  It would be helpful for all of us, AND probably the Devs, if we all knew the deadline we were working for so expectations could be realistic for all sides. 

 

Both the October 24th deadline for Page 5 and the April 26th deadline for Page 6 were mentioned by me several times on the Discord, which is the place where people are more aware of the state of polish of the patch and more willing to not freak out if the date is missed by a week in either direction. Players who are not engaged in the beta tend to just treat any given dates as an unbreakable promise, which puts us in a bad spot if the patch is deemed to be ready a week earlier, or if a last-minute bug if found that forces a delay for a week. A rule of thumb for the future is that the Brainstorm release happens a month before the Live release.

[Marbing]

22 minutes ago, Puma said:

My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts. 

This wouldn’t work. People can create countless fake accounts and/or already have countless fake accounts. So results would be skewed in favor of who has the most accounts. This has been discussed before, don’t remember the thread, but it was determined that polls are just way to easy to manipulate and therefore are much less useful than they appear.

 

 

 

 

Just a little insight and FYI, FWIW: 

 

As it stands right now, the testing and feedback done both before (by the beta testers) and after a page goes into the Focused Feedback stage provide valuable insight to the devs. That insight has on MULTIPLE occasions prompted changes and revisions to content before they go live. However, not every idea is a good one (mine included) and we as players have to be able accept that and move on. Don’t let it discourage you from continuing to provide feedback.

 

This is coming from someone who has both been a tester (and still is) and added content to the game (just patterns I know but it’s something I am proud of). I have worked with and/or spoken with several Devs and know for fact they have just as much passion or more than me or any given player here about this game and its future. Do I always agree with them? Of course not, and as such I expect they don’t always agree with me. That’s teamwork though, the ability to disagree and still work toward a common goal. We play our part, they play theirs. 

We all have one thing in common at very least, we like CoH. Let’s agree on that. Feedback that remains polite, constructive, and focused on the content (not on other players) is always appreciated and DOES have an impact on the decision making process for that content. You may not always see it, but it’s there. You just have to be able to take the devs perspective into account.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghost]

This is what a poll would lead to….

 

Devs “We are thinking of Wind Control next.  In favor yes/no?”

 

1 week later…

 

”where is our wind control” “What’s taking so long”

”this is outrageous - why poll if you’re not gonna release”

 

1 month later…

 

Devs “wind control will not work.  Sorry”

 

” you guys promised.  You are all liars!”

 

”you just don’t want to listen to us.  You never wanted wind control”

 

on and on and on

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ghost

[Ruin Mage]

I noticed the two down-votes and I just had to comment.

Ghost is not saying the reaction would be from everyone, but is able to recognize that some people would ironically take that angle. That anything that is polled, hummed about, or said is under consideration IS going to happen. These people exist and they definitely exist in some form among our community. I mean how many people have posted about Wind Control or the two other power pools? How many have typed as if its a guarantee that we're getting them?

They're not wrong to point out that polls are just not the best choice. They do not show anything worthwhile even hosted off-site. On-site you have a ton of risks especially if you leave them anonymous. I mean what stops VileTerror (someone who has like 6 forum accounts) from botting the poll? Sure, you can count that all as one but its too late - its a screwed poll. You can't, to my knowledge, lock polls to 1 per IP. Polls just do not work for game development and never will (in my opinion) for any game that isn't single player.

[WindDemon21]

I'd like to point out something that I didn't see discussed in beta and didn't notice/wasn't paying attention to when testing:

 

So far for testing that chain lightning does not seem to be proccing properly most likely due to it's dumb chain nature. Even with that enemy procs should work but hardly ever seem to, but especially the heal/end procs from the end mod sets are not properly getting the more chances to proc on bigger mobs that any other normal power would. Was hoping to use that to at least steadily proc the pshifter to help the end on the set, but sadly its only getting the chance to go off on the first target, but also seems to get less proc chances based on the "radius" etc formula, even though it's not getting the extra chances per target hit. So it's getting doubly screwed in the proc department for that since most procs enemy or self inflicting, do not seem to work in the power effectively.

 

For instance with only the recharge from the winter Immob proc (basic), 3 mobs of those 10ish minnions, and it only immobilized 3 of them. So a 1/20 proc rate on a 18ish second recharging "aoe"? I was on level 20 so the rech value was even really low.

 

Tried with Ball lightning for the heal proc, 16s rech base, with 60% rech slotted, hitting mobs of 10 in PP, it went off 8/10 times. In Chain lightning, which has even a 20s base recharge, and I don't even have any recharge in it, it only hit 7/10. Now that seems close, but you have to also figure that it's got a large recharge time, and is currently unenhanced too. So with same slotting that 7/10 would likely be down closer to the 4/10 only about half as much as it would in ball lightning.

 

Because it's a chain as well, it has to rely on the first target hitting which other normal aoes don't have to worry about, yet it still takes ranged aoe sets so can't even benefit from slotting the ranged damage sets and procs too. It also has most of the damage to the first target, and does less on the additional ones, so beside the main target, it's only about half as much damage as a similar-aoe power which is why also it feels so extra anemic when storm cell isn't up/in place which that was noted in testing, but this is likely the main reason why that felt like that. It also doesn't get the benefit of the smaller end cost that other chain powers generally seem to have. This could also account for the damage-to end issues that come up when stating on the larger end cost of the set, besides casting storm cell, this is likely the other main reason why end seems a bit worse on storm.

 

If anyone has any further testing please let me/us know, but this power is terrible to proc with and damage is seeming lackluster as well. When I tested on beta I was mostly testing on small one person mobs so didn't notice these issues, (and wasn't looking at the chain damage assuming it would be the same as a regular aoe but it's not).

 

At this rate I'd rather it just be a standard ranged aoe that could keep the same chaining animation, but would eminate from the center target only, not chain so the damage and proccing would be in line with other aoe powers (ie not worse at both)

[Zect]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:52 PM, Number Six said:

 

If you're going to ask that, don't leave out my "favorite" example of trying to solicit community input on design direction, even more relevant since it relates to powers:

 

(And the 27 pages that follow)

 

Excellent read. I got a good chuckle out of the heated discussion surrounding the use of an Energy Transfer icon and a super strength animated gif as forum avatars, their relevance to game balance being obvious only to the posters.

[Puma]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:09 PM, Luminara said:

Well, I participated in betas as early as Issue 5, and I can say with authority that nothing you said is reflective of either Cryptic or Paragon's approach.  They didn't ask players how to proceed, they didn't solicit suggestions, they didn't throw the doors open and invite players to help them design things.  Nor could they, as they were always working two to three Issues ahead and kept their work secret.  By the time something went to the test server, it was essentially done, and only altered if they felt it was warranted.

 

Case in point: Trick Arrows.  This is directly from my Issue 11 TA guide, the Trick Arrows Enchiridion.

 

 

There was no discussion, there were no compromises offered, there wasn't any poll or focused feedback thread to bounce ideas back and forth between players and developers, TA went to the test server, with no announcement that it was even being created until it hit that test server, then it was beaten into the ground with a nerf bat the size of the Washington Monument and pushed to the live servers without a single adjustment based on player testing and input.  They didn't even fix the bugs, or redress oversights, like Flash Arrow's hit check.

 

They didn't listen to anyone.  I don't say that out of anger or because I'm harboring resentment, I say it because I witnessed and, in time, understood their design and development process.  By the time something went to the test server, it already had 8-12 months of work put into it and the people who'd worked on it were up to their ears in three other projects in various stages of completion.  They didn't have the time for a month of back-and-forth with players, or the interest in making radical changes at the last second, based purely on player feedback and opinion.  They worked that way from the day Emmert took over as lead to the second the servers were turned off, and they did it because that was the only way they could work without falling behind.

 

The HC team also has a work schedule.  The HC team also has multiple other projects they're working on.  The HC team also has deadlines to meet.  And every time a beta is dragged on for weeks after it should have gone live, by people throwing tantrums and demanding changes based solely on the patch notes, people jumping into the feedback threads to bicker and dick-wave over pointless bullshit that isn't even relevant to the thread, people acting like drama queens because they're convinced that their feedback is the only feedback that matters, the HC team falls further behind.  And since they're doing all of this in their spare time, as a hobby, that's means they're forced to spend even less time with their family and friends, or playing the game they're working so hard to maintain and grow.

And now you want them to start working by committee.  Let three thousand people collectively tell them what to work on and how to do it.  People who are disinterested in participating in the pre-beta stages, and people who are so goddamn full of themselves that they'll start threads to complain about their voices not being heard every time the HC team doesn't consult them when they do anything, and people who are so fucking clueless that they think the developers whip things up the night before a beta is launched.

 

I will agree that one of us is full of themselves, but it isn't me.  I have never been rude to you, and I haven't been rude to the Devs, even when calling out things I don't like.  I have even thanked them for their responses. I don't deserve you being insulting to me, and frankly, showing an attitude of superiority and contempt to the majority of the player base that is not in keeping with City of Heroes's culture. 

 And just a reminder that Savage Melee wasn't released by Paragon.

 

And I can promise you I've participated in testing in multiple phases, on multiple servers.  So frankly, either address what I've actually said or take your hyperbolic "by committee of thousands" response to the "role player" forum with the other works of fantasy. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Puma

[Puma]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 PM, Rudra said:

It's not a question of not wanting data. It's a question of community perception. As far as the community goes, would it make the slightest bit of difference if the devs did a secret poll and acted on the results that only they could see the results of as opposed to the devs combing through the game's data to draw their own conclusions and act on? As far as the community is concerned? It would still be the devs doing secret squirrel stuff with nothing for us to see or understand. So nothing would really change, because no one would understand what was going on in dev world any more than we did before this thread was started. If anything, it would most likely lead to angry players. "I know for a fact that option C was the preferred one! Everyone I know or spoke with voted for option C! What did the devs do though? They went with option A! Our voices don't matter!"

 

Edit: And of course I wind up starting a new page so my comment is floating in La La Land with no references for what it is about. This comment is in response to @Rigged's last comment on the preceding page.

I disagree. It is EXACTLY about wanting data, or at least should be. PART of that data IS community perception, but also understanding the myriad issues that a cool concept may actually have BEFORE you've become emotionally and productively attached to it to the point it won't change, etc.  What would change is the end product, and also a slightly better understanding for the community of the general possible directions of these products and that they don't come, suddenly, handed down from on-high.   You would very much be more likely to get products that serve the community better. 

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Puma said:

So frankly, either address what I've actually said or take your hyperbolic "by committee of thousands" response to the "role player" forum with the other works of fantasy. 

 

Okay.

 

Your comparison to Savage Melee isn't valid because the work was done in the SCoRE years, when the developers were catering to an incredibly small group, at a much more relaxed pace, and trying to satisfy everyone in order to keep the server running and that scant handful of people there.  It wasn't even remotely like a real beta, open or closed.  And your comprehension of how an open beta should be conducted is clearly distorted by that experience.  Open beta is not a negotiation.  Open beta is not the time for sweeping changes.  Open beta, in this environment, for a larger audience, is the "is it good enough to go live" point.

 

Moreover, you waited until the set was in open beta for a week before you said anything.  You didn't speak up during the closed beta test, despite having an active account there.  You didn't participate in the alpha, either.  You ignored everything until it was in the end phase.  You had months during which you could've spoken up and had a larger impact on the direction and design of the set, and you ignored it.  But here you are now, insisting that feedback doesn't matter and testing is pointless.

 

The irony is palpable.

[Puma]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Okay.

 

Your comparison to Savage Melee isn't valid because the work was done in the SCoRE years, when the developers were catering to an incredibly small group, at a much more relaxed pace, and trying to satisfy everyone in order to keep the server running and that scant handful of people there.  It wasn't even remotely like a real beta, open or closed.  And your comprehension of how an open beta should be conducted is clearly distorted by that experience.  Open beta is not a negotiation.  Open beta is not the time for sweeping changes.  Open beta, in this environment, for a larger audience, is the "is it good enough to go live" point.

 

 

This is the second, if not the third time in this conversation you've said things about my experience with beta testing and design that are just wrong.  Again, your arrogance and disdain for me for posting  my dissatisfaction and concerns with the current process are...interesting.  If you actually read what I've said in this  thread you'll see I have a lot more experience from BOTH sides than your post here says.  It's pretty ironic though, that  you admit that small group alpha testing is somehow the only place major changes should be made,  and then on the other hand  say somehow Savage melee (and Sentinels, and others) were different because that was a small group testing back then. 

  

And the second part about "open beta not being a negotiation" is PRECISELY why, if you're going to keep this process where alpha is tested on a completely separate server by a small group, and even then the Devs have largely solidified the directions and concepts of new sets, it would be helpful for the Devs, in my opinion, to get feedback before development even begins about those ideas.   

 

No one has perfect vision, and right now you have a small group setting things in motion to the point where it's hard to roll them back even if unforeseen issues arise because too few eyes are on it until it's too far down the line.  No matter how talented, passionate, and well meaning the Devs are (and they are), they have limitations as well.   So if they want to keep open beta as "only seeing if it's good enough to go live" (which should NEVER be the design goal), then they need to frontload some of that feedback and examination by others ahead of development. If not, they should probably adjust the idea of open beta, or, try the other suggestion I made and  institute an intermediary spot.  Maybe have 1: the alpha discord group (initial testing of the Dev's first draft of concepts by a smaller, trusted group of players), 2: an "open beta" here where it's open to anyone to give feedback on the design choices and usability of what came out of alpha among a larger populace, and then 3: a "Refinement server" that seeks to refine the numbers, big fixes, etc. before it goes live.  The last two should be open to the public on Homecoming if you really want enough feedback.  Saying "anyone can join the Gold Standard Testers" sounds nice, but it takes too much effort for most to join it in Discord, get approved, get that server going, etc.  You're naturally weeding out a lot of players who would otherwise be willing to test.  

 

Under the current system, if the "average player" DOES come and test on open beta and post their feedback, they just get attacked by you and others for not being there every step of the process that is mostly closed off to them without a ton of effort.   

 

Well...cool I guess. 

[UltraAlt]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:23 PM, Puma said:

You could have had one of the most beautiful sets in a long time be actually playable.  Now, it's a slog fest that is a chore to play at LEAST until the 30s, and then once you hit the high levels really struggles by its design against the kinds of enemies you face. 

 

I'm leveling with other players, so I'm about up to level 18 now.

I can't say I'm seeing what you are seeing.

I'm having fun with the power set. The players that I'm playing with are as well. 

 

I'm not going to say that I don't think that smashing damage kind of sucks in general. This is true, because pretty much everyone has resistance against it.

But the whole set doesn't do smashing damage.

 

It's out of beta. You had your time to comment on it during beta.

If the Devs didn't listen, then well, if it really is all that bad it will get adjusted later on.

 

In my own experience, of soloing in beta, it gets to a point pretty quickly during leveling where it seemed to be OP to me, but maybe that is based on my tactics and reputation settings.

[WindDemon21]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:00 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

I'm leveling with other players, so I'm about up to level 18 now.

I can't say I'm seeing what you are seeing.

I'm having fun with the power set. The players that I'm playing with are as well. 

 

I'm not going to say that I don't think that smashing damage kind of sucks in general. This is true, because pretty much everyone has resistance against it.

But the whole set doesn't do smashing damage.

 

It's out of beta. You had your time to comment on it during beta.

If the Devs didn't listen, then well, if it really is all that bad it will get adjusted later on.

 

In my own experience, of soloing in beta, it gets to a point pretty quickly during leveling where it seemed to be OP to me, but maybe that is based on my tactics and reputation settings.

I've tested on beta with a "pushed through" IO set build tweaking a few key IOs in it, I've gotten a couple to the mid 20s, and have a fully built and IO'd storm/storm defender who has all the bells and whistles and is just shy of hitting 50, and I can again concurrently say the set is not ok. It's not far off from what it needs, but those tweaks needed mean it's currently REALLY harsh pre-30, and still not fantastic after it either. Without question, it's the end heaviest set i've ever played for a blast set. And this is coming on a full build on the defender, who is using nothing from storm except steamy mist and freezing rain for lots of the battles to test more of just the storm blast stuff (and that's even skewing the damage fairly heavily too for how great of a -def/-res debuff freezing rain is, so the set's actually worse than I'm even experiencing with that compared to MANY other defender combos i've played)

 

Even at that, its basically backwards. The set is designed more to be a sustained-better, but not burst damage set. Which is fine, except that its current design is literally backwards for that. In that scenario, it should literally have BETTER end values than other blast sets, but it actually has worse (very large in part see last paragraph). This hurts even more when you factor in that you need to be constantly attacking to get any decent benefit from storm cell, and that is also hindered very largely due to the bad proc chance/ratios of the attacks, where you have to basically try to cycle direct strike, cloudburst, and chain to try to maintain the highest proc chances, and even then it's lackluster.

 

With the lockout, and you can see how it feels when using intensify even, I'd say without question all attacks should simply have a 100% chance to proc cell and c5. Those lockouts still being there would ensure they're already capping out. This also means the set would actually function more properly at the low levels with storm cell, as right now it's double nerfed early on without having the big proccing attacks, and not having recharge and endurance to spam them as much as possible as well. As it's tied to them most directly, it doubles down on the set being terrible in the early levels. The guaranteed proc chances, will let you at least use gust/hail ie quicker attacks and still get decent proccing out of storm cell. As cell/c5 both have target caps on those procs, it still woudln't OP it on large mobs vs just a standard rain, but would give more value to it on those longer fights where there are fewer enemies after the initial volley.

 

Due to the lockouts as well, where the set SHOULD shine more than a standard rain type power, it still ends up being worse as the mob dies down to a lower number of targets, as the lockouts ensure that less proccing is going on, and those procs that DO hit, could also be wasted depending on the target they hit, whereas rains would be hitting each enemy consistently.

 

As mentioned in previous posts too, the set is also HUGELY doubled down, where chain lighting comes in. As it has WORSE stats than every other similar ranged aoe, doesn't proc, and has no valuable secondary effect to the aoe, and can even miss all, or at least half of the mob easily due to its chain nature. The way the set plays, again it's fine with it retaining this nature and not proccing worth crap like it currently does but this MUST be reflected with a MUCH lower end and rech value to compensate somewhere closer to 8-10 for end/rech values.

 

Edit: "I'm not going to say that I don't think that smashing damage kind of sucks in general. This is true, because pretty much everyone has resistance against it.

But the whole set doesn't do smashing damage." I did want to point out, that there is no issue with the damage typing. The smash/energy damage the set does is perfectly fine, the issues is mainly on the proc chances of the attacks, and the stats on chain lightning. (other small tweaks too but those are the main issues)

 

Also wanted to point out "If the Devs didn't listen, then well, if it really is all that bad it will get adjusted later on." this quote. From past pages, this is beyond the opposite of what I've seen. There are many issues i've seen where the devs basically port powers to live, and then don't look back on them. Symphony aoes notifying before the mez takes place is a big example of this without getting too much into it. I WISH that they would keep looking at these threads and fix these major issues pointed out above but it feels like they never do. I'd pray its not true and they'd fix it before my next storm blaster, cause I'm already exhausted dealing with it's issues, as are many other players i've played with who tried storm blast. One I know who's a serial "get the toon to 50, then to vet 100," and they've even stopped  their storm blast toon as well.

Edited May 15, 2023 by WindDemon21