Putting PROCs in Toggles

[Snarky]

I know they changed things on PROCs recently.  I saw someone did a ton of work on it.  Then tried to explain it to everyone.  I felt like a caveman sitting on a rock listening to a NASA scientist discuss asteroid trajectories.  

 

So, I was seriously considering putting a PROC in a toggle.  But I need it to fire.  Consistently. It is the Blaster's Defiant Barrage PROC and it would potentially be going in Hot Feet from Fire Manipulation.  Is that going to work?

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

 

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I felt like a caveman sitting on a rock listening to a NASA scientist discuss asteroid trajectories.  

Same. 15 something years and I still have no friggin' clue how procs work or how best to slot them.

[Lazarillo]

37 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Is that going to work?

Probably not, but to be clear in this case, the Defiant Barrage proc doesn't work in any power in any meaningful way.

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Probably not, but to be clear in this case, the Defiant Barrage proc doesn't work in any power in any meaningful way.

wellll..... i will not say that is good news.  but looking at it the 1 point of non stacking status protection.   hmmm.  i see what you mean lol.  i just never looked.  i sort of assumed it was good.  okay.  does make the choice easy.  i can slap that in Hot Feet then.  mostly chasing set bonuses on core powers at this point.

 

thanks

[Snarky]

46 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

 

Same. 15 something years and I still have no friggin' clue how procs work or how best to slot them.

[ZemX]

The superior barrage proc is 4ppm.   Hot feet is a 20ft radius PBAoE toggle.   Toggles use 10 seconds as the "recharge time" for calculating proc chance.

 

It should have about a 20% chance to fire every 10 seconds in Hot Feet.  But that's 20% for every target hit.  Since it only needs to hit one target (any more do not stack the effect) you are then looking at the odds that at least one target is hit.  This is equal to 1 - (odds of hitting none).   You have an 80% chance of missing each target with the proc.   If you have 10 targets on Hot Feet (the target cap), that's 1 - 0.8^10 = ~90% chance of hitting at least one.   For five targets it's more like 67% chance.

 

To sum up... and assuming my math is correct... you should play a Tanker instead. 🤪

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

So, I was seriously considering putting a PROC in a toggle.  But I need it to fire.  Consistently. It is the Blaster's Defiant Barrage PROC and it would potentially be going in Hot Feet from Fire Manipulation.  Is that going to work?

 

No toggle is ever a good choice for a %proc, with the possible exception of Gaussian's %Build Up in Leadership toggles... and I have a bunch of caveats related to that choice. (One quick caveat: the character getting the benefit of a Leadership toggle %Build Up ought to have a decent damage scale factor, plus attacks, to leverage it. VEATS >> MMs)

 

EDIT: The %BuildUp proc isn't bad in an Invulnerable Melee character's Invincibility

Edited May 17, 2023 by tidge

[Ger]

I have gotten some mileage out of the avalanche 

KD proc in tank and brute damage auras. The absolute amazement proc can also be effective in oppressive gloom.  some of the healing procs are useful in toggles that are always left on like integration. I agree that toggles and procs generally don't work though.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Ger
Autocorrect

[twozerofoxtrot]

52 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i can slap that in Hot Feet then.  mostly chasing set bonuses on core powers at this point.

 

@ZemX's excellent explanation notwithstanding,  I'd recommend putting Defiant Barrage's Proc in whichever blast power you took at level 1.

 

The reason being is these powers can be cast through a Mez. If they aren't already being used as filler in your rotations then at the very least you can spam this attack when locked up and have a chance to break the mez (while still applying damage). A lot of NPC mezzes have pretty low mag. Even getting +1 protection can break them.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

I felt like a caveman sitting on a rock listening to a NASA scientist discuss asteroid trajectories.  

 

A toddler doesn't have to understand physics to catch a ball.  If you play one way for awhile, then play another way (and remember objectively how it went the first time), you can figure out what works best for you without one lick of mathematics.

[Clave Dark 5]

From the wiki: 

 

Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery -- This enhancement grants a 20% bonus to regeneration rate and a 10% bonus to endurance recovery rate for 120 seconds. When used in a click power, the effect is granted every time the power is used. When used in a toggle power, the effect persists until 120 seconds after the toggle power is deactivated. When used in an auto power, the effect is always active.

 

So at least this one proc is worthwhile in a toggle.  It does happen. 😃

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

A toddler doesn't have to understand physics to catch a ball.  If you play one way for awhile, then play another way (and remember objectively how it went the first time), you can figure out what works best for you without one lick of mathematics.

Well I have been building and playing ultra conservative.  Now I am innertubing bareskin down mt everest on a Fire Fire Blaster lol.  

 

The impetus to put Defiant Barrage in a toggle is then I can throw a full set of Superior Winters Blast in my T2 Fire Blast and pick up a good amount of defenses.  My defenses are not high, but this would slap my 3rd set of full sup winter and that helps.  Trying to make the little Fire Blaster survivable with the help of 1 med purple lol.

[tidge]

27 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

From the wiki: 

 

Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery -- This enhancement grants a 20% bonus to regeneration rate and a 10% bonus to endurance recovery rate for 120 seconds. When used in a click power, the effect is granted every time the power is used. When used in a toggle power, the effect persists until 120 seconds after the toggle power is deactivated. When used in an auto power, the effect is always active.

 

So at least this one proc is worthwhile in a toggle.  It does happen. 😃

 

I suppose you can keep toggling the power on-and-off to conserve Endurance and enjoy the improved Recovery rate.

 

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

I suppose you can keep toggling the power on-and-off to conserve Endurance and enjoy the improved Recovery rate.

 

One of the reasons I dislike Dark Dark is it has a click sustain.  

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

I suppose you can keep toggling the power on-and-off to conserve Endurance and enjoy the improved Recovery rate.

 

 

I'm fairly certain it won't work.

 

Although the wiki entry is effectively correct, it is not (to my understanding) technically correct.

 

 

Here's how that matters. In toggles and autos, procs like Numina's and Miracle are still behaving the same way they would in click powers: follow toggle proc rules they proc at least once a minute (auto powers are basically toggles with special rules). The thing is though, the buffs are non-stacking with two minute durations, so you'll always have it up on your character once it's gone off. 

 

So if you're fiddling with the toggles, eventually Numina's buff will fall off, and won't come up again until somewhere in that first minute after activation. 

[tidge]

1 minute ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

So if you're fiddling with the toggles, eventually Numina's buff will fall off, and won't come up again until somewhere in that first minute after activation. 

 

Without personal experience with all the potential toggles that can take Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery, I was reluctant to make a simple claim that perhaps the toggle should just be slotted with a (boosted) Heal/Endurance Reduction piece.

[Clave Dark 5]

41 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

So if you're fiddling with the toggles, eventually Numina's buff will fall off, and won't come up again until somewhere in that first minute after activation. 

I have been lied to by our wiki for the last time!!

[FupDup]

54 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

I'm fairly certain it won't work.

 

Although the wiki entry is effectively correct, it is not (to my understanding) technically correct.

 

 

Here's how that matters. In toggles and autos, procs like Numina's and Miracle are still behaving the same way they would in click powers: follow toggle proc rules they proc at least once a minute (auto powers are basically toggles with special rules). The thing is though, the buffs are non-stacking with two minute durations, so you'll always have it up on your character once it's gone off. 

 

So if you're fiddling with the toggles, eventually Numina's buff will fall off, and won't come up again until somewhere in that first minute after activation. 

Is it okay as long as the toggle stays active forever? Like let's say I were to put a Shifter proc in Crystal Armor (recovery toggle in Stone Armor). 

[twozerofoxtrot]

4 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Like let's say I were to put a Shifter proc in Crystal Armor (recovery toggle in Stone Armor).

 

So this proc works differently than the other two mentioned because it doesn't apply a continuous buff, it just gives you a one-time injection of Endurance per proc (exactly like Panacea does).

 

That said, putting it in Crystal Armor is a good call, regardless.

 

 

Edit to actually answer the question: yes as long as you have the toggle active, having Numina or Miracle procs in them essentially act as a continuous bonus to recovery (or regen).

Edited May 18, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot

[FupDup]

Thank goodness, I was scared for a second that I'd have to re-engineer a bunch of builds in Mids. Crisis averted! 

[Zect]

The question has been answered, more or less, so I'm just here to say I snicker every time I think about the PPM system and the rationale for it. It was supposed to be

 

1. Intuitive; you should be able to look at a proc and tell roughly how often it will fire.
2. Balanced; a proc should give roughly the same number of Procs Per Minute regardless of what power it is slotted in.

 

Did Paragon Studios achieve their goals? I'll let you, dear reader, be the judge of... bwahahahaha! Sorry, can't stop laughing.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

Did Paragon Studios achieve their goals?

 

Well, these ARE the same people who "balanced" damage powersets without considering animation times.  

 

Oddly enough, toggles are actually less complicated than click attacks when it comes to procs because Global Recharge has no effect.  Hence a 1PPM proc in a self-toggle goes off once per minute, as you'd expect.  AoEs still add some complexity but it's just a divide factor to reduce the frequency the larger the AoE is.   If all procs worked this way in all powers it would be as simple as PPM / (AoE Factor) = real procs per minute.  But that would be seen as a nerf now because Global Recharge essentially makes procs go off WAY more often than they were ever supposed to in click powers.

[Lazarillo]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

Did Paragon Studios achieve their goals? I'll let you, dear reader, be the judge of... bwahahahaha! Sorry, can't stop laughing.

I'll note that widespread use of PPMs was a Homecoming thing, rather than a Paragon Studios thing.  PPMs were an experiment that came fairly late in the game's original lifetime, in very limited scope, as sort of an experiment to see if they'd do better than the flat-percentage system, which caused people to kinda forego the "intent" of procs.  HC decided to go ahead and expand the system to all procs (except one) to encourage people not to minmax around proc builds and...well, that's where the bwahahahaha! comes in.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Have you tried putting Tocks in Proggles? Asking for a friend

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Have you tried putting Tocks in Proggles? Asking for a friend

You shouldn't entice people like that —you know they come after your ass now for putting Tocks in Proggles.