+2 mag Disorient IO Proc for Stun powers.

[BlackSpectre]

We have Lockdown for Holds and Coercive Persuasion for Confuse, why not one for Disorient? It would make the disorient/stun powers much more useful. And I might even take a few for a change...

 

The new IO doesn't even have to be part of a new set. Just make one from a current set a proc.

 

In practice, I tend to avoid most disorient powers. They typically only effect minions, and frankly my AOE attacks take care of the minions quickly.    It's the same reason I tend not to get sleep powers (hey! while we're talking about it, why not a +2 mag proc for sleep powers too?). 

 

Anyway, every single time I've been faced with choosing a disorient power, I've thought the same thing "If only there was a way for it to affect lieutenants or bosses, I'd totally take it! Dang."

[Communistpenguin]

Sounds good to me.

[flinlock]

Excellent idea! Nothing to add really, you summed it up nicely. It would be nice to see more people using disorient.

[BlackSpectre]

I still like the idea of a +mag proc enhancement for disorient. 

 

In addition, I think it would be worthwhile to raise the base magnitude of all disorient powers from 2 to 3.  That would put disorients on par with holds and confuses.

[KaizenSoze]

6 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

I still like the idea of a +mag proc enhancement for disorient. 

 

In addition, I think it would be worthwhile to raise the base magnitude of all disorient powers from 2 to 3.  That would put disorients on par with holds and confuses.

Stun procs are pretty much the worse procs on the game. They could use some love.

 

Also, stuns in general have the high speed run away issue that I wish could be improved. Specific example would how wolves will speed off while staggering in little circles. No other control has this issue.

[srmalloy]

29 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Specific example would how wolves will speed off while staggering in little circles. No other control has this issue.

Not just wolves; back on Live, I stunned an Outcast in Steel and watched them stagger — while moving at the speed of a dead run — more than forty feet, leap onto the roof of a building and continue running until I lost target lock on them. According to Positron when I asked him at a meet&greet at SDCC one year, this happens when a mob has movement queued up, then gets stunned; the mob will execute the movement, repeating it over and over, until they come out of stun. It seems obvious to me that, when a mob gets stunned, it should immediately cancel any queued movement, replacing it with the 'stagger around aimlessly' movement. But that's not how it works.

[BlackSpectre]

I completely agree! It's an aspect of the power I didn't mention... The typical strategy for defeating lots of mobs at once is using the old herding method. Group up as many as possible in a small area, hit them with AOE holds and immobilizes, and then hit them with blast AOEs. Bam! Dead. It can be a beautiful thing when it's done right.

 

Stun  is actually not preferred for this strategy for the exact reason you mention... they wander when disoriented. That means the nice, tight group of baddies spread out, and your AOE blasts end up missing a lot of them. 

 

My point is that stun is already weaker or not as effective as other mez powers... You might think that raising their magnitude by 1, and adding a +2 mag proc IO, would bring stun up to par with hold and confuse, but the nature of the power itself would still make it the weaker choice. But at least it would be useful enough to take as a power.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Stun is super powerful as is!  It temporarily neutralizes an opponent, like hold.  Unlike hold, it lets them wander a little.  Lots of powers have stun, so the easiest way to stun a boss is to use two stun powers or to put a stun proc in a non-stun power so that the mag adds up.

 

 

[Rudra]

If it can be done, my recommendation would be as follows:

1) Targets affected by stun effects have all queued movement immediately cleared without activation.

2) Targets affected by stun effects suffer max movement reduction on any movement inputs while so affected.

3) Stun effects use a weighted command system, where standing still is prioritized followed by the slow stagger as movement options for affected targets.

 

I think these changes would make more players more inclined to take and use stun attacks than a +2 magnitude proc for the effects. Further, these changes would work very well with the proposed +2 magnitude proc, giving added incentive to invest in it.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to strike out part 3 since the Razzle Dazzle proc works for it.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Stun is super powerful as is!  It temporarily neutralizes an opponent, like hold.  Unlike hold, it lets them wander a little.  Lots of powers have stun, so the easiest way to stun a boss is to use two stun powers or to put a stun proc in a non-stun power so that the mag adds up.

 

 

I would agree with this statement if it wasn't for the fact that most of my stunned targets flee at max movement out of the area in separate directions. Breathing space acquired? Yes. Now I have to wait for them all to come back though since I can almost never seem to find them.

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I like Stun. When it works, and the mobs wander about, I love it. It's just that too frequently, they run away at max speed and depending on the map, I can't find them until they finally wander back.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

I think stun was gimped to prevent it from being overpowered.  It is a control but its found in damage powersets.  If i could melee and reliably stun large amounts of mobs while simultaneously doing large amounts of damage...i guess dominator with scrapper damage.  Scrapinator?

 

Stun procs do suck though and ive previously told people that the procs are useless if the mob got stunned.  Less accuracy from a stunned mob anyone?  Your power doing what your power does wastes the proc.  I would like to see some actual useful procs in the stun category but not have their base magnitude raised unless their stun chance was lowered.  Melee characters shouldnt get that level of protection from their melee attacks,  thats what armor and team members are for.  A control set based around stuns though...that could be interesting,  but for another time.

 

[Rudra]

The Razzle Dazzle proc is pretty nice. Chance to immobilize the stunned target? Chance for free hold! (Edit: The downside being that Razzle Dazzle's immob is only Mag 2.)

Edited June 28, 2023 by Rudra

[Doomguide2005]

It's the primary way my Earth/Storm characters have and do  neutralize foes.  Stalagmites followed by Thunderclap sometimes a Fissure mixed in.  All my other CC tools are used as needed to help control some of the problematic foes, such as War Wolves, particularly QS,  EQ and Stone Cages (And/or adds etc.).

Edited June 28, 2023 by Doomguide2005

[Jiro Ito]

14 hours ago, TheZag said:

...i guess dominator with scrapper damage.  Scrapinator?

 

Domingator!

[TheZag]

1 minute ago, Jiro Ito said:

 

Domingator!

 

How could i have missed something so obvious !?

 

[SeraphimKensai]

What kind of PPM for this proc are you suggesting @BlackSpectre?

 

I'm thinking it could have some interesting interaction with the power Stun from Energy Manipulation.

[BlackSpectre]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What kind of PPM for this proc are you suggesting @BlackSpectre?

 

I'm thinking it could have some interesting interaction with the power Stun from Energy Manipulation.

Probably 2.5. Put it on par with Lockdown and Holds. But it depends on whether or not the base mag for most stun powers is raised by 1. If not, then go higher... maybe 3.5 (unless it's a purple IO, then 4.5).

 

Oh, wow! The power, Stun, in Energy Manipulation is a mag 2-3 stun. Look at that! An actual good stun power!  Single target, though... and it's a tier 6 power. Let's say we increase the stun mag for all stun powers. This power would be mag 3+1. That makes it able to stun bosses, which is completely reasonable since it's a single target, tier 6 power for a blaster and also does very little damage. Further, the stun mag is split into 2 separate effects... a mag 2 that lasts for 6.25 secs, and a mag 1 that lasts for 3.125 secs. That means that bosses, if effected, would only be affected for 3.125 secs. These are base values, of course. We can increase the duration with other IOs to approximately double the duration. Still, a stunned boss for 6 secs max is not really that long. And on top, the power's recharge is long 1.5 min. It would be able to be used about once every battle. There are already a lot of limitations put on this power to ensure that it doesn't become over-powered.

 

Other than that, it looks like all the other secondary effect stuns in Energy Manipulator are mag 2... and this is for secondary effects.  I'm not suggesting changing those. Only the mag for primary stun powers. But consider that... secondary effects are often the same magnitude as many primary stun powers.  

 

Stunning shot in Archery is mag 3. Disorienting Short in Assault Rifle is mag 3. 

Oppressive Gloom in Dark Armor is only mag 2.

 

Wow. I'm suddenly struck with how much work this would be to change all of the stun powers in the game. You might have to look at each individual power and evaluate it, then change each one. That's a lot of powers, and a lot of work. Just making a single proc IO is a lot less work.

 

OK. Nevermind. I retract my suggestion to raise the base mag of all stun powers. I think fixing the problems with stun would have higher priority, but that doesn't seem like any less work. The problems reported at the wiki are: 

 

A critter that's Disoriented while moving from Point A to Point B will continue moving to B at its original direction and speed. Only then will it begin moving slowly and randomly. Furthermore, Disorienting apparently applies no penalties to flight speed, jump speed, or jump height, so enemies that have automatic, unsuppressible travel powers can move at unexpectedly high speeds.

*******************************************************************************

 

So... let's go back to my original suggestion, the addition of a +2 mag stun proc. 3.0 ppm. I think that's doable, and it would make a big difference. 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by BlackSpectre

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

 

A critter that's Disoriented while moving from Point A to Point B will continue moving to B at its original direction and speed. Only then will it begin moving slowly and randomly. Furthermore, Disorienting apparently applies no penalties to flight speed, jump speed, or jump height, so enemies that have automatic, unsuppressible travel powers can move at unexpectedly high speeds.

*******************************************************************************

 

So... let's go back to my original suggestion, the addition of a +2 mag stun proc. 3.0 ppm. I think that's doable, and it would make a big difference. 

 

Maybe instead we change stun so that disoriented critters have their existing queued movement cleared so they also stagger around and expand stun effects to flight? That would require only the underlying mechanic itself to be addressed.

 

Edit: When a flying PC is stunned, our ability to fly is drastically reduced for speed. If that does not apply to mobs as well, I believe it should.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Rudra

[SeraphimKensai]

6 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

Oh, wow! The power, Stun, in Energy Manipulation is a mag 2-3 stun. Look at that! An actual good stun power!  Single target, though... and it's a tier 6 power.

Just a heads up, an Energy Manipulation blaster can modify Stun by using boost range to convert it from a melee stun to a ranged stun. Additionally they can use power boost to convert it from single target to AoE. And you can use both boost range and power boost to make it a ranged AoE. Using power boost gives it a significantly longer recharge though, but even the base 12 seconds would get a decent proc rate as proposed. When converted to an AoE the recharge becomes 90 seconds so it's going to have a 90% proc rate for AoE stuns.

[tidge]

Ah you sweet summer children. Back in the day, an Inv/EM tanker would have to be rooted in place in Peregrine Island and hope that those stunned Nemesis troopers would eventually rocket back within melee range.

 

If we are negotiating: I won't support Stuns getting any enhancement changes while neither Fears nor Threats have anything like PVP or Very Rare enhancement choice. I'm not asking for much...

 

Fears: Deserve a %Contagious Fear piece (would be especially useful in the single-target fears, which have limited utility at level 50+ content). I'd kinda like an Acc/End/Fear piece to exist as well.

 

Threat: We need a non-D-Sync Threat/Accuracy piece, as there exists non-auto-hit Threat powers. There aren't any mixed Endurance-reduction for Threat powers outside of the D-Syncs. I could use straight-up Acc/End in certain powers. Threat/Range is always a solid choice. I don't care what the 6th piece is, I'm sure many aura builds would like another %damage.