Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, honoroit said:

can tough and weave be pick 1 and 2?  kick is pure filler.

 

we got all kinds of power tiers changed around for AT sets.

No.

 

Edit: The pools are weakest powers are accessible first, then better powers. You are asking to invert that. That is like asking to get your primary pool power's nuke at 1st level.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rudra

[honoroit]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No.

 

Edit: The pools are weakest powers are accessible first, then better powers. You are asking to invert that. That is like asking to get your primary pool power's nuke at 1st level.

but some are far more 'balanced' than others - the fancy ones like sorcery (1 power 1st choice gives tp AND fly).

 

would you take hasten if it were pick 3?  its core everywhere.

 

my point prior being, kick is unbar filler.

 

what would freeing a power choice mid levels do to a character balance wise. not a lot, maybe let them pick another pp power elsewhere, or a skippable from their primary/secondary.

 

balance is more around the slotting. type by set placement enablement, and of course benefits brought to the power.

 

so a 1x slot kick replaced with xyz... no, its just a quality of life improvement

 

id rather have an auto that upgrades brawl in place of kick/punch-or-whats-it-called.

 

[Parabola]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

That is like asking to get your primary pool power's nuke at 1st level.

I'm quite amused by the idea of inverting the power order for primary and secondary power sets. Just how much of a massive nerf it would be in most cases. Imagine how badly a set would play if you only had access to your nuke at 1st level with no global recharge and precious little opportunity to slot recharge.

[Aracknight]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

No.

 

Edit: The pools are weakest powers are accessible first, then better powers. You are asking to invert that. That is like asking to get your primary pool power's nuke at 1st level.

 

Please explain how 3 speed powers, including hasten, 3 jumping powers, including combat jumping, 3 sorcery, including mystic bolt, etc etc etc are the same as or equal to boxing and kick.  Ranged attack powers, movement, stealth, all things that can be used to be more survivable or even remove you from combat or prevent you from being noticed all available with no pre requisite are considered as weak as boxing and kick?

 

 

My ass.

[lemming]

17 hours ago, FupDup said:

When it comes to this pool I'd just like a better T1 power like a throwing knife or axe. Alternatively, the only way I could entertain the notion of Tough/Weave without prerequisites is if they performed at much weaker levels when taken standalone. 

I think a lot of builds use the Tough & Weave powers for slotting the individual IOs, so what wse really should have is have a couple six slot inherent powers called "Inherent Resist and Defense" that would allow you to put those special IOs like Gladiator Armor TP Protect/Def.  They wouldn't have any real base to enhance.

#notserious

 

[Ston]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

 

Please explain how 3 speed powers, including hasten, 3 jumping powers, including combat jumping, 3 sorcery, including mystic bolt, etc etc etc are the same as or equal to boxing and kick.  Ranged attack powers, movement, stealth, all things that can be used to be more survivable or even remove you from combat or prevent you from being noticed all available with no pre requisite are considered as weak as boxing and kick?

 

 

My ass.

 

You’re ignoring that Boxing & Kick make Cross Punch more powerful. You get bonus tohit, recharge, & damage.

 

I get that not everyone wants to use CP, but you can’t say that Boxing & Kick have no value.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Ston

[Captain Fabulous]

There is nothing noble about having to waste a power slot to get other powers you want. The whole "bUt iT wIlL cAuSe pOweR cReEp!!!" is nonsense. There's a reason why the prerequisites were removed from travel powers, their availability was lowered, and Fitness was made inherent. These were always poor design decisions. And honestly, this game has a LOT of them.

And yeah, I am fully in support of removing the T1/T2 prerequisites on all the pools. There's just no legitimate reason for it to exist, other than "well it's always been like that". Let me take the powers I want and stop forcing me to take powers I don't want. It's a pretty simple concept.

[Aracknight]

16 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

You’re ignoring that Boxing & Kick make Cross Punch more powerful. You get bonus tohit, recharge, & damage.

 

I get that not everyone wants to use CP, but you can’t say that Boxing & Kick have no value.

Two powers that i dont want to take, affecting a third power im not taking anyway does in fact have zero value to me.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

You have convinced me.

 

Buff Kick.

[Ston]

The t1/t2 of my primary set normally doesn’t have any value to me either by the time I’m lvl 50. Doesn’t mean I should get access to the t3 at lvl 1.

 

Travel powers were mostly just a QoL improvement. Going fast was something everyone benefited evenly from. And this was over a decade ago.

 

Tough/Weave are not the same in that regard. I have plenty of characters that skip the fighting pool because power picks were tight and I could substitute them with other powers/enhancements. I would have to respec most of them if this were to be changed.

 

The only change I would agree with would be to make Boxing/Kick do more damage. But both of them already have CC effect, so I don’t know how much more you can ask of them for what they are.

 

Should Tactics also be available without Assault/Maneuvers? I’m sure everyone would benefit from that but it’s a middle finger to anyone who spent time building around those restrictions.

[TheZag]

I agree that individually,  boxing and kick are stinkers, but the pool as a whole is quite strong.  Taking a power that people consider a zero so they can get 2 powers that are 100s is the cost.  If they were immediately available then their buff would probably be reduced by about 1/3.  Even in this case it would be a buff boxing and kick situation,  not a make tough and weave free situation. 

 

Other pool powers did get requirement adjustments but it wasnt due to them being poor design choices.  Those requirements were put in place to make people log in more and level up more slowly so they would keep paying their monthly fees.  Monthly subscriptions are gone now and several of the systems put in place to milk them have been relaxed or removed.  Not everything can become free or instant though or there would be no sense to play the game. Characters gaining mastery over pool powers by first learning the easy stuff before getting the good stuff isnt likely to be changing.

 

[Aracknight]

18 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I agree that individually,  boxing and kick are stinkers, but the pool as a whole is quite strong.  Taking a power that people consider a zero so they can get 2 powers that are 100s is the cost.  If they were immediately available then their buff would probably be reduced by about 1/3.  Even in this case it would be a buff boxing and kick situation,  not a make tough and weave free situation. 

 

Other pool powers did get requirement adjustments but it wasnt due to them being poor design choices.  Those requirements were put in place to make people log in more and level up more slowly so they would keep paying their monthly fees.  Monthly subscriptions are gone now and several of the systems put in place to milk them have been relaxed or removed.  Not everything can become free or instant though or there would be no sense to play the game. Characters gaining mastery over pool powers by first learning the easy stuff before getting the good stuff isnt likely to be changing.

 

 

Cool.  Delete AE then because everything is already instant AF.

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, Aracknight said:

 

Cool.  Delete AE then because everything is already instant AF.

You have convinced me.

 

Delete AE.

[FupDup]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

I think a lot of builds use the Tough & Weave powers for slotting the individual IOs, so what wse really should have is have a couple six slot inherent powers called "Inherent Resist and Defense" that would allow you to put those special IOs like Gladiator Armor TP Protect/Def.  They wouldn't have any real base to enhance.

#notserious

 

Even that would still be a bit too stronk I think since saving even 2-3 slots can make a huge difference in builds. 

 

There just needs to be better T1 powers in Fighting so people don't feel "taxed" and also probably more pool resist powers in general since there's literally just two of them compared to eight hundred million different defense powers. 

 

Fighting is so popular because it's the only real pool source of S/L resists...it has a total monopoly (Rune doesn't count because it's a T3 clicky with low uptime). And if you're 2/3 powers in you might as well pick up Weave while you're at it. 

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, honoroit said:

but some are far more 'balanced' than others - the fancy ones like sorcery (1 power 1st choice gives tp AND fly).

 

would you take hasten if it were pick 3?  its core everywhere.

 

my point prior being, kick is unbar filler.

 

what would freeing a power choice mid levels do to a character balance wise. not a lot, maybe let them pick another pp power elsewhere, or a skippable from their primary/secondary.

 

balance is more around the slotting. type by set placement enablement, and of course benefits brought to the power.

 

so a 1x slot kick replaced with xyz... no, its just a quality of life improvement

 

id rather have an auto that upgrades brawl in place of kick/punch-or-whats-it-called.

 

I never take Hasten. Ever. And any change that lets players more optimize their characters is very much power creep.

 

2 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

Please explain how 3 speed powers, including hasten, 3 jumping powers, including combat jumping, 3 sorcery, including mystic bolt, etc etc etc are the same as or equal to boxing and kick.  Ranged attack powers, movement, stealth, all things that can be used to be more survivable or even remove you from combat or prevent you from being noticed all available with no pre requisite are considered as weak as boxing and kick?

 

 

My ass.

They are attacks. They have their use. Boxing can stun. Boxing is guaranteed to stun if you also have Kick. Kick can do KD. It goes up to 40% chance to KD if you also have Boxing. They do less damage than a melee AT's own attacks, but that is because they are power pool attacks. And their END cost is fairly low at 4.42 and 4.94 respectively.

 

 

[Rudra]

37 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I agree that individually,  boxing and kick are stinkers, but the pool as a whole is quite strong.  Taking a power that people consider a zero so they can get 2 powers that are 100s is the cost.  If they were immediately available then their buff would probably be reduced by about 1/3.  Even in this case it would be a buff boxing and kick situation,  not a make tough and weave free situation. 

 

Other pool powers did get requirement adjustments but it wasnt due to them being poor design choices.  Those requirements were put in place to make people log in more and level up more slowly so they would keep paying their monthly fees.  Monthly subscriptions are gone now and several of the systems put in place to milk them have been relaxed or removed.  Not everything can become free or instant though or there would be no sense to play the game. Characters gaining mastery over pool powers by first learning the easy stuff before getting the good stuff isnt likely to be changing.

 

Considering the defense values of Combat Jumping and Hover? Weave would most likely have its bonus cut in half to be equal to them.

[Aracknight]

On my scrapper, Hover gives 1.88 def.  Combat jumping gives 1.88 def.

 

Def is additive, 1.88+1.88 =3.76.

 

Weave gives my scrapper 3.75 def, with no added movement.

 

2 powers gives more def bonus than 3 from fighting to get Weave.  This is a better value.  

 

You might point out that if i took tough as a pre requisite than the overall protection is greater than hover+ cj,  but Tough isnt the pre req, 2 power are.  Those could be the, as you've pointed out, the useful boxing and kick.

 

Costs more to get less.  Seems legit.

[Ston]

1 minute ago, Aracknight said:

On my scrapper, Hover gives 1.88 def.  Combat jumping gives 1.88 def.

 

Def is additive, 1.88+1.88 =3.76.

 

Weave gives my scrapper 3.75 def, with no added movement.

 

2 powers gives more def bonus than 3 from fighting to get Weave.  This is a better value.  

 

You might point out that if i took tough as a pre requisite than the overall protection is greater than hover+ cj,  but Tough isnt the pre req, 2 power are.  Those could be the, as you've pointed out, the useful boxing and kick.

 

Costs more to get less.  Seems legit.

 

The pool is called “Fighting”, not “Defense”. You’re not going to get 2 pre-requisite powers that give you defense. Boxing & Kick are thematically appropriate.

 

You’re putting way too much value on defense for a power pool that isn’t based on defense. May I suggest Concealment? 

[arcane]

The Fighting pool is so 2022.

[Aracknight]

10 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

The pool is called “Fighting”, not “Defense”. You’re not going to get 2 pre-requisite powers that give you defense. Boxing & Kick are thematically appropriate.

 

You’re putting way too much value on defense for a power pool that isn’t based on defense. May I suggest Concealment? 

 

Ok then should hover and cj not get defense mods because they are in the Flight and Jumping pools, which are also not named the Defense pool?

[Ston]

3 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 

Ok then should hover and cj not get defense mods because they are in the Flight and Jumping pools, which are also not named the Defense pool?

 

They give a tiny defense boost. The sets are much more based on their movement type rather than defense. SJ, Fly, Air Superiority, Jump Kick, Spring Attack don’t give defense. Evasive Maneuvers gives defense but is more focused on flight speed since you lose defense in combat.

 

It’s a stretch to suggest the <2% defense boost makes those pools “defense” pools. You’re asking to make Boxing/Kick give the same value as defense powers… but defense shouldn’t be the focus anyway.

[Aracknight]

4 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

They give a tiny defense boost. The sets are much more based on their movement type rather than defense. SJ, Fly, Air Superiority, Jump Kick, Spring Attack don’t give defense. Evasive Maneuvers gives defense but is more focused on flight speed since you lose defense in combat.

 

It’s a stretch to suggest the <2% defense boost makes those pools “defense” pools. You’re asking to make Boxing/Kick give the same value as defense powers… but defense shouldn’t be the focus anyway.

So, two tiny powers that get defense bonuses in a nondefense based set provide more defense than three powers chosen from a pool that is also not focused on defense is balanced, is this your position?

 

Because people, despite your assertation, take these powers not only for defense, but for set bonuses that those powers take.

 

 

I'll tell ya what fam, make Travel powers only take Travel sets, and not allow them to take defense sets/procs anymore, since that isn't their focus anyway and i will shut the fuck up about the fighting pool forever.

[Ghost]

Eliminate kick and allow players to pick weave?  But wait, now I can pick another power I actually will use……but now I need more slots!  
 

Oh yeah, it’s not fair that I have to wait until 50 to get my incarnates.  It would make things so much more fun for ME if I could pick them at lvl 1
 

gimme, gimme, gimme

[megaericzero]

Your inherent, primary, and secondary powers are decided by your archetype and are your character's playstyle/role; the individual sets just flavor it. Pools and epics/patrons allow you to break the mold - potentially letting you double-down on your strengths but, more often than not, adding new functions or shoring up weaknesses. Making a squishy character more durable comes at a cost because you're compensating for your archetype's deficit.

 

It's gygaxian but this game was made when that was the pinnacle of MMO balance. The devs have done wonders to chip away at that "you shouldn't be able to solo" philosophy with changes like adding survivability tools to all Manipulation sets but that is an archetype-specific solution and doesn't free up multiple power picks. Changing how pool powers behave would have much further-reaching consequences.

 

7 hours ago, honoroit said:

what would freeing a power choice mid levels do to a character balance wise. not a lot, maybe let them pick another pp power elsewhere, or a skippable from their primary/secondary.

 

You want to make a power skippable so it frees up a power choice to take a power you also consider skippable? Not to sound rude, that's just how the  sentence is reading for me.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 

I'll tell ya what fam, make Travel powers only take Travel sets, and not allow them to take defense sets/procs anymore, since that isn't their focus anyway

You mean this as a "they can't possibly agree to this" defense, but I can live with it. Easily. You should brace for the rest of the community though.