An idea for a new Unique IO

[Wavicle]

I would love to see a set with a Unique IO that gives a global +Range bonus. Nothing extreme, maybe around 5%? Hey, if it could be even better that would be cool, but I'm erring on the side of caution.

Maybe it could be in a Universal Travel set?

 

Tactical Foresight: "You know where to be, and when to be there."

[biostem]

14 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I would love to see a set with a Unique IO that gives a global +Range bonus. Nothing extreme, maybe around 5%? Hey, if it could be even better that would be cool, but I'm erring on the side of caution.

There are +range set bonuses already.  TBH, I think the LotG global recharges have spoiled a lot of people.  In the grand scheme of things, +range is probably a lot less OP... 

Edited August 3, 2023 by biostem

[nihilii]

Great idea!

 

Intuitively, even +25% range wouldn't strike me as OP. Sents get 2 +10% as part of a bonus on their ATOs with much more goodies. Cardiac gives +20% range on top of endurance and resistance.

Here, we'd be allocating a full slot to the purpose. I think a sizeable boost like +20% or +25% would be warranted.

There's of course the question "would stacking Cardiac AND this unique IO allow for some brokenness", but honestly... Range seems more of a convenience thing than anything, any exploit of the mechanic is far from practical in reward:time. Who even consciously remembers psy attacks start at 100ft base range, for example, or factor this into choosing the powerset over other options?

Edited August 3, 2023 by nihilii

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Great idea!

 

Intuitively, even +25% range wouldn't strike me as OP. Sents get 2 +10% as part of a bonus on their ATOs with much more goodies. Cardiac gives +20% range on top of endurance and resistance.

Here, we'd be allocating a full slot to the purpose. I think a sizeable boost like +20% or +25% would be warranted.

There's of course the question "would stacking Cardiac AND this unique IO allow for some brokenness", but honestly... Range seems more of a convenience thing than anything, any exploit of the mechanic is far from practical in reward:time. Who even consciously remembers psy attacks start at 100ft base range, for example, or factor this into choosing the powerset over other options?

Cardiac and Intuition both have the ability to grant a +20% range buff.

 

Bombardment and Experienced Marksman both grant a +5% range buff stackable up to 5 times for +25% range buff.

 

Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders get a +7.5% range buff from their ATOs, or a +10% range buff from their improved ATOs. Each of those are stackable up to twice if you split the set into two sets of 3 for +15% or +20%.

 

I'm not even looking at the PvP only range set bonuses which are also +7.5% each.

 

So before you add in a dedicated special enhancement that grants a global range buff, you can already get +65% range buff as a global effect. That isn't counting the range buffs built into specific enhancements like the ones from Artillery Strike. Another +25% range buff from a single enhancement would put a character at +90% range global buff before factoring in other specific enhancements. Even with the Sentinel's reduced range of 60 feet, that's 114 feet range. Blasters would have a better than snipe range of 152 feet for their basic attacks. And their snipes would hit out to 285 feet, well beyond any mob's ability to fight back. And that is still before slotting Artillery's range enhancements for another +25.6% range or Far Strike's +12% range on any given power.

[Wavicle]

Yea, 25 seems like too much to me. 
 

but the set could also include a range bonus as well…maybe 7.5 on the unique and a 7.5 3-pc bonus for a total of 15 if you slot the whole set?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Wavicle

[Major_Decoy]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Bombardment and Experienced Marksman both grant a +5% range buff stackable up to 5 times for +25% range buff.

 

Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders get a +7.5% range buff from their ATOs, or a +10% range buff from their improved ATOs. Each of those are stackable up to twice if you split the set into two sets of 3 for +15% or +20%.

 

I'm not even looking at the PvP only range set bonuses which are also +7.5% each.

It doesn't seem like considerations like that are particularly made with uniques.

 

Slow Resist: Tiny Slow Resist: 5%, (no small slow resist), Moderate Slow Resist: 7.5%, Large Slow Resist: 10%, Huge Slow Resist: 12.5%, (no Guargantuan Slow Resist), Ultimate Slow Resist: 15%. Winter's Gift Unique: 20%

 

Range: Tiny Increased Range: 2.5%, Small Increased Range: 3.8%, Moderate Increased Range: 5%, Large Increased Range: 6.3%, Huge Increased Range: 7.5%, Guargantuan Increased Range: 8.8%, Ultimate Increased Range: 10%. If we followed the above pattern, where the unique is two steps up from Ultimate, it could be 15%

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And their snipes would hit out to 285 feet, well beyond any mob's ability to fight back.

As well as being beyond your ability to get credit for the mobs you defeat. I'd need to go back and check my older posts, but I think the limit I measured was 210 feet; further away, and while you'll get "you have defeated X" messages, you won't get badge count for them.

[nihilii]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Cardiac and Intuition both have the ability to grant a +20% range buff.

 

Bombardment and Experienced Marksman both grant a +5% range buff stackable up to 5 times for +25% range buff.

 

Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders get a +7.5% range buff from their ATOs, or a +10% range buff from their improved ATOs. Each of those are stackable up to twice if you split the set into two sets of 3 for +15% or +20%.

 

I'm not even looking at the PvP only range set bonuses which are also +7.5% each.

 

So before you add in a dedicated special enhancement that grants a global range buff, you can already get +65% range buff as a global effect. That isn't counting the range buffs built into specific enhancements like the ones from Artillery Strike. Another +25% range buff from a single enhancement would put a character at +90% range global buff before factoring in other specific enhancements. Even with the Sentinel's reduced range of 60 feet, that's 114 feet range. Blasters would have a better than snipe range of 152 feet for their basic attacks. And their snipes would hit out to 285 feet, well beyond any mob's ability to fight back. And that is still before slotting Artillery's range enhancements for another +25.6% range or Far Strike's +12% range on any given power.

Do you mean to say you disagree with my point "range seems more of a convenience thing than anything, any exploit of the mechanic is far from practical in reward:time"?

Do you have a practical example in mind?

 

I've experimented at length with a range build a couple years back, and there's interesting properties (more often than not exploiting fly + range + grounded/grouding enemies in general to not take damage); but all of these usecases were ultimately novelty, the efficiency loss fighting from far away is just too drastic.

[FupDup]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

There are +range set bonuses already. 

They're not very common, though. 😕

[Bionic_Flea]

52 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

As well as being beyond your ability to get credit for the mobs you defeat. I'd need to go back and check my older posts, but I think the limit I measured was 210 feet; further away, and while you'll get "you have defeated X" messages, you won't get badge count for them.

 

Hmmm . . . This thread made me start thinking of a maximum range character for a new project.  Do you still get XP beyond 210 feet or is it just the badge counter?

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Do you still get XP beyond 210 feet or is it just the badge counter?

The only thing that's affected is badge credit; you still get XP, drops, and (if you have a mission map where you can use the range) defeat credit for the "defeat X and their group" mission goal.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, srmalloy said:

As well as being beyond your ability to get credit for the mobs you defeat. I'd need to go back and check my older posts, but I think the limit I measured was 210 feet; further away, and while you'll get "you have defeated X" messages, you won't get badge count for them.

 

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

The only thing that's affected is badge credit; you still get XP, drops, and (if you have a mission map where you can use the range) defeat credit for the "defeat X and their group" mission goal.

Well, gosh darn it. Guess players will just have to go obliterate grey mobs for their badges like several already do, while using their new, improved ranges to fight anything they aren't worried about badges over at beyond mob combat range. The only time this wouldn't apply was while on an indoor map.

 

 

7 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

It doesn't seem like considerations like that are particularly made with uniques.

 

Slow Resist: Tiny Slow Resist: 5%, (no small slow resist), Moderate Slow Resist: 7.5%, Large Slow Resist: 10%, Huge Slow Resist: 12.5%, (no Guargantuan Slow Resist), Ultimate Slow Resist: 15%. Winter's Gift Unique: 20%

 

Range: Tiny Increased Range: 2.5%, Small Increased Range: 3.8%, Moderate Increased Range: 5%, Large Increased Range: 6.3%, Huge Increased Range: 7.5%, Guargantuan Increased Range: 8.8%, Ultimate Increased Range: 10%. If we followed the above pattern, where the unique is two steps up from Ultimate, it could be 15%

The benefits of improving resist as compared to improving range? Well, with resist, you have a hard cap based on your AT of what you can achieve. So even if you manage to max out all your resists, the mobs can still potentially defeat you because you're going to be in range and as long as they can hit you, they will damage you. I would be far more in favor of, or at least still be undecided, at +15%.

 

6 hours ago, nihilii said:

Do you mean to say you disagree with my point "range seems more of a convenience thing than anything, any exploit of the mechanic is far from practical in reward:time"?

No, I mean that a single special enhancement granting +25% global range buff is excessive. I'm neither in favor of nor against the OP. I am undecided.

[nihilii]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, I mean that a single special enhancement granting +25% global range buff is excessive.

OK... But... You quoted my entire post for your reply, in which I explicitely argue +25% global range buff would not be excessive.

Only to not address anything I've said. And instead, point out a bunch of existing options to increase range.

"There's other stuff giving you +range therefore we cannot have this amount of +range" is not an argument if you can't make the case for this exact amount of +range being a problem to start with!

The rational starting point should be:

- what are existing options, their advantages and inconvenients

- what would be an appropriate value for a full slot to be devoted to that purpose

- is there any practical issue in increasing the amount of +range available to characters

- if so, can we pinpoint numbers at which this breaks down

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by nihilii

[arcane]

25% +range for one IO would be completely insane. Sign me up for 10%ish, and it must be unique.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, nihilii said:

OK... But... You quoted my entire post for your reply, in which I explicitely argue +25% global range buff would not be excessive.

Only to not address anything I've said. And instead, point out a bunch of existing options to increase range.

Then let me be a bit clearer. We can already achieve a global range buff of +65%. Right now. On any Blaster, Corruptor, Defender, or Sentinel. That is just global range buffs from an Alpha and set bonuses, not enhancement range buffs affecting specific powers or powers that also increase our range globally for a short while. Tacking on an additional +25% global range buff would extend ranged player character ranges to the point where they can fight with all their powers at slightly more than the game's default snipe range. Only cone attacks would not reach this range. And snipes would reach beyond the ability for anything other than possibly Hamidon to hit back at. In my book, this is excessive. Even if we run with what @Major_Decoy posted for bonuses, a +25% global range buff from a single special enhancement runs several steps past an Ultimate tier buff.

 

[TheZag]

I would have to try and make a build that chases max range set bonuses and see if it can still achieve 45% defense and adequate resists.  It that turns out to be impossible (such as losing 15% defense to chase range),  then i dont see an issue with a new set that includes a global range unique.  As it is now,  you probably have to sacrifice other set bonuses to get crazy range.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by TheZag

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I would have to try and make a build that chases max range set bonuses and see if it can still achieve 45% defense and adequate resists.  It that turns out to be impossible (such as losing 15% defense to chase range),  then i dont see an issue with a new set that includes a global range unique.  As it is now,  you probably have to sacrifice other set bonuses to get crazy range.

 

Defense bonuses and high resists aren’t even the meta anymore for the game’s hardest content. Silly test.

[TheZag]

We cant hit the damage cap through our build alone but we can cap defense and resist.  I would measure against what is lost in a build and not that a team or league has me buffed to the extreme on hardmode.  And i missed that range was meta for the hardest content,  ill have to reconsider my tank.

 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

We cant hit the damage cap through our build alone but we can cap defense and resist.  I would measure against what is lost in a build and not that a team or league has me buffed to the extreme on hardmode.  And i missed that range was meta for the hardest content,  ill have to reconsider my tank.

 

High range teleport is, in fact, currently meta for the hardest content, among other things. Intuition outstrips Musculature because of it.

[Bionic_Flea]

4 hours ago, TheZag said:

I would have to try and make a build that chases max range set bonuses and see if it can still achieve 45% defense and adequate resists.

 

Thus was born Psychic Flea!   With all the bells and whistles (Intuition, Clarion Radial, Boost Range, and 40% from set bonuses), Psionic Lance is 525 Feet; everything else is 350, except for Psionic Darts, which is 210.

 

Without incarnates its: PL = 375; others = 250; PD = 150.

 

All that with defenses 15-38 alone, softcapped S/L/E with Power Boost or Clarion and just shy with Support Radial.  I tossed it together rather quickly and took all the psi blasts, so flipping some stuff should net some additional defense if I lost a blast or two.  Oh and with Psychic Focus, Gaussian proc, Build Up, and a few +dam set bonuses, Psionic Lance and Psionic Wail both do about 1500 damage (assuming average procs per Mids).

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Thus was born Psychic Flea!   With all the bells and whistles (Intuition, Clarion Radial, Boost Range, and 40% from set bonuses), Psionic Lance is 525 Feet; everything else is 350, except for Psionic Darts, which is 210.

 

Without incarnates its: PL = 375; others = 250; PD = 150.

 

All that with defenses 15-38 alone, softcapped S/L/E with Power Boost or Clarion and just shy with Support Radial.  I tossed it together rather quickly and took all the psi blasts, so flipping some stuff should net some additional defense if I lost a blast or two.  Oh and with Psychic Focus, Gaussian proc, Build Up, and a few +dam set bonuses, Psionic Lance and Psionic Wail both do about 1500 damage (assuming average procs per Mids).

Holy Hell in a handbasket.... uhm... ... wow....

[lemming]

53 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Thus was born Psychic Flea!   With all the bells and whistles (Intuition, Clarion Radial, Boost Range, and 40% from set bonuses), Psionic Lance is 525 Feet; everything else is 350, except for Psionic Darts, which is 210.

 

Without incarnates its: PL = 375; others = 250; PD = 150.

 

All that with defenses 15-38 alone, softcapped S/L/E with Power Boost or Clarion and just shy with Support Radial.  I tossed it together rather quickly and took all the psi blasts, so flipping some stuff should net some additional defense if I lost a blast or two.  Oh and with Psychic Focus, Gaussian proc, Build Up, and a few +dam set bonuses, Psionic Lance and Psionic Wail both do about 1500 damage (assuming average procs per Mids).

My Ether Bunney, same sets, but barely slotted with sets has a 364' range with Lance

[Wavicle]

I also just wanted to make it clear, I have actually not played any Hard Mode content yet. I want this IO for fun reasons on various characters, it has nothing to do with being super powered for the endgame.

 

I had the idea when I recently got to 50 on a new Sentinel and wasn't really sure what to do with my last slot. A +Range unique would have been perfect.