Staff: Change Perfection of the Mind to be an offensive stance?

[MirrorDarkly]

Look it's another staff idea.....

 

So it's no secret that outside of the Stalker staff does poor damage, being at or near the bottom in both single target and trapdoor clear times, and that at least for Tanks and Brute you're better off shoving as many pool attacks in your single target chain as you can (seriously it's use both your level 1 attacks and pool picks) than using the later attacks. 

 

Now in theory this was probably intended to be balanced by the defensive and utility bonuses the set provides but given how easy it is to get those in IOs that is often not worth the trade off.  So I was wondering how people would feel about changing Perfection for the Mind to a stance that actually increases the damage of Sky Splitter and Guardian Spin (maybe add strong Psi DoT's to each at 3 stacks) to the point that they would be competitive for their very long animation times?  That would leave you with the choice of Body which is currently the most used stance still offering a modest overall damage increase plus survival bonus, Soul which some people use for the sustain and Mind which would be more damage/finishing move focused in exchange for losing much of the sets utility.  

 

Since Stalkers don't get to change stances you wouldn't have to worry about this making the version of the set which currently does the best damage too powerful by accident.  It would also reward people who use the build stacks and spend them mechanic which was clearly the intent of the set as opposed to the current situation where you actually do the most damage by building three stacks of body and then *not using it* while still allowing for that playstyle if you enjoy it.

Edited August 30, 2023 by MirrorDarkly

[Saiyajinzoningen]

haha yeah I totally agree with you on the low damage.

but in a game where you can throw balls of energy 

and punch a foe 30 feet away,

wacking a baddie with a stick shouldn't be that powerful?

at least that's my reasoning

 

as an alternate idea that everyone is bound to hate

perhaps staff should have a momentum mechanic 

similar to titan weapons only without the jankyness 😁

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

So it's no secret that outside of the Stalker staff does poor damage, being at or near the bottom in both single target and trapdoor clear times, and that at least for Tanks and Brute you're better off shoving as many pool attacks in your single target chain as you can (seriously it's use both your level 1 attacks and pool picks) than using the later attacks.

 

Tests which eschew the use of 7 of the 9 powers in a set aren't an evaluation of the set, by any measure.

 

4 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

So I was wondering how people would feel about changing Perfection for the Mind to a stance that actually increases the damage of Sky Splitter and Guardian Spin (maybe add strong Psi DoT's to each at 3 stacks)

 

All three forms already add damage to Sky Splitter, and damage and secondary effects to Eye of the Storm, at 3 stacks.

 

As Guarded Spin currently buffs Lethal and Melee Defense, balance would necessitate moving Guarded's effects to Eye if Eye's effects were moved to Guarded, or removing the Defense buff entirely, either of which would be shitastic.  No, thank you.

[MirrorDarkly]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Tests which eschew the use of 7 of the 9 powers in a set aren't an evaluation of the set, by any measure.

 

 

All three forms already add damage to Sky Splitter, and damage and secondary effects to Eye of the Storm, at 3 stacks.

 

As Guarded Spin currently buffs Lethal and Melee Defense, balance would necessitate moving Guarded's effects to Eye if Eye's effects were moved to Guarded, or removing the Defense buff entirely, either of which would be shitastic.  No, thank you.

 

That is exactly my point, most of the powers in the set are underperforming to the point that pool powers are better from a damage perspective.  So I'm floating the idea of making one stance where using the core mechanic increases damage enough that it outperforms using mostly pool attacks and just using a few quick attacks to build FotB stacks and never spend them (trading the utility in that form only for more damage in that form only).

 

As you said the three form do buff the damage of EotS and SS, along with providing other benefits, but its such a small buff that it is more single target damage just to skip the majority of the set (as well as being average to below average AoE damage despite having a large number of AoE attacks). I see that as undesirable.

 

As for Guarded Spin why would that need to be adjusted? Other sets such as Katana have very similar powers and overall put out more damage.  However if it was for some reason to much to allow Guarded Spin to keep the  +11.25% bonus to Melee and Lethal defense then the obvious fix would be to remove or lower it only when you're in Perfection of the Mind. But again I don't see why that would be needed since the Katana version gives +15% to those same defenses (comparing Brute numbers here).  

Edited August 31, 2023 by MirrorDarkly

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

That is exactly my point, most of the powers in the set are underperforming to the point that pool powers are better from a damage perspective.  So I'm floating the idea of making one stance where using the core mechanic increases damage enough that it outperforms using mostly pool attacks and just using a few quick attacks to build FotB stacks and never spend them (trading the utility in that form only for more damage in that form only).

 

As you said the three form do buff the damage of EotS and SS, along with providing other benefits, but its such a small buff that it is more single target damage just to skip the majority of the set (as well as being average to below average AoE damage despite having a large number of AoE attacks). I see that as undesirable.

 

As for Guarded Spin why would that need to be adjusted? Other sets such as Katana have very similar powers and overall put out more damage.  However if it was for some reason to much to allow Guarded Spin to keep the  +11.25% bonus to Melee and Lethal defense then the obvious fix would be to remove or lower it only when you're in Perfection of the Mind. But again I don't see why that would be needed since the Katana version gives +15% to those same defenses (comparing Brute numbers here).  

The damage doesn't look bad to me. Comparing to War Mace you get the following:

 

Tier 1:

Mercurial Blow: 52.5517 damage, -7.5% DEF (100% chance), 1 second cast, 3 second recharge. (13.138 dps)

Bash: 62.5615 damage, Mag 2 Stun (10% chance), 1.33 second cast, 4 second recharge. (11.738 dps)

 

Tier 2:

Precise Strike: 85.5812 damage, Mag 2 Stun (20% chance), 1.133 second cast, 6 second recharge. (11.998 dps)

Pulverize: 102.6009 damage, Mag 2 Stun (20% chance), 1.5 second cast, 8 second recharge. (10.8 dps)

 

Tier 3:

Guarded Spin: 72.4775 damage, +11.25% DEF (Melee/Lethal), 1.83 second cast, 8 second recharge. (7.373 dps)

Jawbreaker: 122.6205 damage, Mag 4.154 Knockup (75% chance), 1.98 second cast, 10 second recharge. (10.235 dps)

 

Tier 4/5:

Eye of the Storm: 92.5379 damage, -7.5% DEF (100% chance), Mag .67 KU (40% chance), +76.9506 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 10% chance), 2.57

        cast, 17 second recharge. (4.73 dps/8.66 dps [10% chance])

Clobber: 182.6796 damage, Mag 3 Stun, 1.23 second cast, 16 second recharge. (10.6 dps)

 

Tier 7:

Serpent's Reach: 112.6107 damage, +112.6107 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 10% chance), Mag .67 KB (80% chance), 1.77 cast, 9 second recharge.

         (10.52 dps/20.92 dps [10% chance])

Whirling Mace: 70.0689 damage, Mag 2 Stun (30% chance), +70.0689 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 5% chance), 2.67 cast, 14 second recharge. (4.20

         dps/8.41 dps [5% chance])

 

Tier 8:

Innocuous Strikes: 88.2742 damage, +103.8521 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 5% chance), Mag 3 immobilize (60% chance), +movement (Self: All),

          2.17 second cast, 10 second recharge. (7.25 dps/15.79 dps [5% chance])

Shatter: 142.6402 damage, Mag .67 KB, +142.6402 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 5% chance, 2.33 second cast, 12 second recharge. (9.95 dps/19.9

        dps [5% chance])

 

Tier 9:

Sky Splitter: 164.03631 damage, Mag 5,96 Stun, Mag .67 KU, 2.83 second cast, 15 second recharge. (9.2 dps)

Crowd Control: 100.724 damage, Mag .67 KB, +100.724 damage (minions, pets, swarms, and small. 5% chance), 2 second cast, 12 second recharge. (7.19

         dps/14.39 dps [5% chance])

 

If you shift Whirling Mace and Eye of the Storm to match each other and Serpent's Reach to Clobber (edit: since Whirling Mace and Eye of the Storm are the PBAoEs), you get the following for DPS:

 

Staff:          War Mace:

13.138         11.738

11.998         10.8

7.373           10.235

4.73             4.2

10.52           10.6

7.25             9.95

9.2               7.19

 

It out damages War Mace on 4 attacks and is out damaged by War Mace on 3 attacks. That is not a weak set.

 

Edit: Also, please note that no forms were used for those calculations. That is just the basic forms of Staff Fighting's attacks, so no bonuses added.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[MirrorDarkly]

I don't understand what you're doing for the DPS of each attack, it seems like damage/(cast time + recharge) but unless you're standing around waiting for attacks to recharge its the damage/cast time that determines each attacks value to your overall DPS.

 

So using your numbers, Clobber has a base damage per activation of 148.52 (182.6796/1.23) where as Serpent's Reach has a dpa of 63.62 (112.6107/1.77).  

 

 

[Rudra]

Correct. I am taking the attack's damage and dividing it by the cast time + the recharge time. Because the damage may be applied during or at the end of the cast time, but the recharge time determines when you can use that attack again. Which affects your DPS.

 

Edit: Let's put it this way. The time it takes to cast/animate the attack and the time it takes the attack to recharge is effectively the actual time period over which the attack's damage is applied. Because you cannot use the attack before it is available to use. So the damage is effectively spread out over the combined time.

 

Edit again: For example, you have two attacks. One does 1,000,000 damage, but you can't use it except for once per month. The other attack does 100 damage, but you can use it once every 10 seconds. There is 0 cast time for this comparison. That 1,000,000 damage attack is doing 0.3858 damage per second, but that 100 damage attack is doing 10 damage per second. Another way to look at it? That 1,000,000 damage attack did 1,000,000 damage that month using it as fast as you could, while the 100 damage attack did 25,920,000 damage over the same amount of time. So cast time plus recharge is your actual DPS.

 

(Edit yet again: Yes, you will be using other attacks as part of your attack chain, so your overall DPS will increase from the cumulative attacks. However, that does not change that how fast a power recharges has a major impact on how much overall damage it does in combat. Because you still cannot use any attack until it has recharged.)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[MirrorDarkly]

Yes of course recharge matters some but activation time is by far the most significant "time cost" after you have enough attacks to make a gapless rotation.  Also recharge can be reduced significantly which heavily favors powers with low animation time but long recharge times.  

 

There is a reason War Mace takes nearly 60% longer to take down a plyon in the test data I linked earlier. 

[Rudra]

Fine. So let's apply some recharge reduction enhancements to these. They have had their recharge reduced to half. (Obviously, the cast times are not affected.) We get the following results:

 

Mercurial Blow: 21.02068 dps

Bash: 18.78724 dps

Winner: Staff Fighting

 

Precise Strike: 20.706799 dps

Pulverize: 18.65471 dps

Winner: Staff Fighting

 

Guarded Spin: 12.43182 dps

Jawbreaker: 17.56741 dps

Winner: War Mace

 

Eye of the Storm: 8.35934 dps

Whirling Mace: 7.246 dps

Winner: Staff Fighting

 

Serpent's Reach: 17.96024 dps

Clobber: 19.79194 dps

Winner: War Mace

 

Innocuous Strikes: 12.3116 dps

Shatter: 17.12367 dps

Winner: War Mace

 

Sky Splitter: 15.8796 dps

Crowd Control: 12.5905 dps

Winner: Staff Fighting.

 

Totals: 4 powers with higher DPS in Staff Fighting and 3 powers with higher DPS in War Mace. Just as before. Same powers even. And that is still completely ignoring absolutely anything else any of these powers do. (Edit: Like the fact Serpent's Reach is a 40 feet range attack, and Clobber is not because War Mace has no range attacks on a Scrapper other than Confront.)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[MirrorDarkly]

Lets look at actual attack chains, which of course are highly sensitive to recharge.  I am going to use the ones posted by Ston since I have no reason to suspect they are not honest attempts to make the best possible single target attack chains for each set with all other variables being as equal as possible.  Also I'm using brute numbers which was the second best overall showing.  Stalkers (#1) are outliers with several unique things about the set and that would not be affected by my purposed change.

 

The Staff attack chain as an unenhanced damage of about 39.5 DPS.

 (60.9 + 73.4 + 55.0 + 35.0)/(1.848 + 1.32 + 1.32 + 1.188*)

 

War Mace's attack chain produces about 51.2 DPS.

(121.7 + 73.4 + 95 + 81.7)/(1.452 + 1.32 + 2.508 + 1.98)

 

So War Mace second per second will put out almost 30% more damage before any other factors such as procs, secondary effects etc.  Now again I am not saying there are not advantages to Staff.  I'm only suggesting that the least (I believe) used stance be adjusted so there is less of a difference in the DPS at the cost of sacrificing some of the set's utility if you choose to be in that stance.  If you remain in Body or Soul you would see no changes at all.

 

*I used arcanatime since that is what you experience in the game. 

[Rudra]

38 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

Lets look at actual attack chains, which of course are highly sensitive to recharge.  I am going to use the ones posted by Ston since I have no reason to suspect they are not honest attempts to make the best possible single target attack chains for each set with all other variables being as equal as possible.  Also I'm using brute numbers which was the second best overall showing.  Stalkers (#1) are outliers with several unique things about the set and that would not be affected by my purposed change.

 

The Staff attack chain as an unenhanced damage of about 39.5 DPS.

 (60.9 + 73.4 + 55.0 + 35.0)/(1.848 + 1.32 + 1.32 + 1.188*)

 

War Mace's attack chain produces about 51.2 DPS.

(121.7 + 73.4 + 95 + 81.7)/(1.452 + 1.32 + 2.508 + 1.98)

 

So War Mace second per second will put out almost 30% more damage before any other factors such as procs, secondary effects etc.  Now again I am not saying there are not advantages to Staff.  I'm only suggesting that the least (I believe) used stance be adjusted so there is less of a difference in the DPS at the cost of sacrificing some of the set's utility if you choose to be in that stance.  If you remain in Body or Soul you would see no changes at all.

 

*I used arcanatime since that is what you experience in the game. 

I'll let @Ston handle figuring out attack chain DPS. I'm not inclined to tackle something that complex. However, this still discounts what other things those powers do. Without any of the form stances factored in, which is an additional complication I am disinclined to factor in, just the basic abilities of each of Staff Fighting's attacks, you have a constant stream of knockups, knockdowns, stuns, defense reductions, personal defense buff, movement buff for all movement types, chance for bonus damage to pets, minions, swarms, and small mobs; a ranged attack, and immobilize; while still maintaining comparable DPS per power to War Mace. (Better even on 4 powers. 5 if you factor that Serpent's Reach is a ranged attack being compared to a melee attack, and still does nearly the same DPS.)

 

I don't look at pylon times. I don't look at Trapdoor times. I'm not sure about the Trapdoor test, but pylons only look at the character's ability to inflict massive amounts of damage in as little time as possible. It does not look at anything else the character can do. Get yourself a pocket Empath to hang nearby and keep you alive while you wail on the pylon. (Or make a Tanker and just tank it while you wail on it.) That is just straight damage. Staff Fighting is a solid set. It may not be the highest damage set, but they can't all be the highest damage set. It may even be the lowest damage set, I don't know. I am not inclined to go through all the power sets across Tankers, Brutes, and Scrappers to see if it is. That doesn't make it a bad set. That doesn't even make it a weak set. The more any given power does, the less damage it will do. That is by design. And Staff Fighting does a lot. The only reason I don't much play Staff Fighting characters? Is because I tend to get bored playing my staff characters.

 

If Staff Fighting is under-powered, not looking at just DPS here, looking at set performance overall, then the devs will address it. However, I don't see anything wrong with Staff Fighting's DPS.

 

(Edit: There is also the consideration, at least in my book, that players are using Form of the Mind and the proposal would take that away to replace it with a different power. Especially since Perfection of the Mind already grants +51.8009 psi damage to Sky Splitter and Guarded Spin isn't a finisher, but is a charge builder.)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

If you are calculating damage per second with the recharge time included,  you arent calculating damage per second,  that would be damage per second per cast cycle.  That can be useful for some comparisons,  but when you have an attack chain that repeats without down time,  the recharge time of abilities is no longer relevant to the dps.  If my 5 abilities all have 2 seconds cast time and they all have a 4 second recharge,  they will always be available when its time to use them since the entire chain takes 10 seconds to complete.

 

Taking the recharge of the ability into consideration can lead to the same answers sometimes,  but dpspcc (damage per second per cast cycle) isnt the same as damage per second or the more vitally important damage per activation time.

 

[MirrorDarkly]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'll let @Ston handle figuring out attack chain DPS. I'm not inclined to tackle something that complex. However, this still discounts what other things those powers do. Without any of the form stances factored in, which is an additional complication I am disinclined to factor in, just the basic abilities of each of Staff Fighting's attacks, you have a constant stream of knockups, knockdowns, stuns, defense reductions, personal defense buff, movement buff for all movement types, chance for bonus damage to pets, minions, swarms, and small mobs; a ranged attack, and immobilize; while still maintaining comparable DPS per power to War Mace. (Better even on 4 powers. 5 if you factor that Serpent's Reach is a ranged attack being compared to a melee attack, and still does nearly the same DPS.)

 

I don't look at pylon times. I don't look at Trapdoor times. I'm not sure about the Trapdoor test, but pylons only look at the character's ability to inflict massive amounts of damage in as little time as possible. It does not look at anything else the character can do. Get yourself a pocket Empath to hang nearby and keep you alive while you wail on the pylon. (Or make a Tanker and just tank it while you wail on it.) That is just straight damage. Staff Fighting is a solid set. It may not be the highest damage set, but they can't all be the highest damage set. It may even be the lowest damage set, I don't know. I am not inclined to go through all the power sets across Tankers, Brutes, and Scrappers to see if it is. That doesn't make it a bad set. That doesn't even make it a weak set. The more any given power does, the less damage it will do. That is by design. And Staff Fighting does a lot. The only reason I don't much play Staff Fighting characters? Is because I tend to get bored playing my staff characters.

 

If Staff Fighting is under-powered, not looking at just DPS here, looking at set performance overall, then the devs will address it. However, I don't see anything wrong with Staff Fighting's DPS.

 

(Edit: There is also the consideration, at least in my book, that players are using Form of the Mind and the proposal would take that away to replace it with a different power. Especially since Perfection of the Mind already grants +51.8009 psi damage to Sky Splitter and Guarded Spin isn't a finisher, but is a charge builder.)

 

You raise many good point which I'd like to think my idea took into account.  I'm going to highlight some and give my thoughts on why I think this is a reasonable proposal.

 

I'm using pylon and trapdoor times as evidence for adjusting the set but they are not the reason.  The main thing that stands out to me as problems is that for two ATs the optimal ST rotation ignores both the core mechanics of the set and any of the set's attacks you'd pick up after level two.  The other two ATs are Stalker where the set ranks in the low middle and would not be changed with this proposal and Scrapper where it is dead last in the ranking so I feel safe that raising it up a little would not harm the game or lead to power creep.

 

Nothing in my proposal changes Guarded Spin, which as you note builds stacks.  And again I don't see why it would need to be changed.? The defense bonus is not out of line with the ones other sets offer that do better ST damage and have better trapdoor clear times.  People think if Staff as a defensive and AoE focused set but there are actually several sets that outshine it in both of those areas.  Again just using the brute numbers MA, TW and Katana all have attacks that buff your defense and beat it in both pylon and trapdoor times with MA and TW being at or near the top of both rankings. 

 

As for people who already use Form of the Mind I'm not advocating they lose much and perhaps they wouldn't need to lose anything honestly.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most likely people in FotM are doing so for the recharge bonus the stacks give you before they are spent, which I'm not saying should change.  The reason I'm advocating for buffing FotM specifically is for the tradeoff you already make using it.  Being in FotM already locks you out of the resist bonus and -resist debuff FotB generates and the sustain FotS grants. 

[Uun]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

I am taking the attack's damage and dividing it by the cast time + the recharge time.

Recharge time is immaterial. Damage per activation time is the correct metric.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Uun said:

Recharge time is immaterial. Damage per activation time is the correct metric.

Then I guess everyone can stop slotting recharge and screaming they need Hasten in their builds.

[Uun]

Just now, Rudra said:

Then I guess everyone can stop slotting recharge and screaming they need Hasten in their builds.

You're missing the point entirely. If you have a complete attack chain with no gaps, the power's recharge is irrelevant to the set's damage output.

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

That is exactly my point, most of the powers in the set are underperforming to the point that pool powers are better from a damage perspective.

 

The meta, where this complaint originates, is focused on extreme proc usage and leverage of sources of +Recharge, +Dam and +Acc (the loudest complaints about Staff is lack of Build Up on brute/scrapper/tanker) to compensate for that slotting.  How a set actually performs is a secondary consideration in the meta, how individual powers perform with procs is the meta measurement.

 

Furthermore, what little Staff testing I've seen has struck me as ridiculously inadequate.  In the Trapdoor test thread in the Scrapper forum, Staff is only mentioned three times, not a single one of which shows an attack chain or build info, and one of those three mentions was an "I forgot to record my results, so I'm guessing" aside.  2 results given, out of 18 pages.

 

In the Pylon test thread in the Scrapper forum, not a single person has ever posted a time for a Staff scrapper, tanker or brute.  Not one.  Only stalkers.  Staff on three of the four archetypes has never actually been tested in that metric, and there are almost 2000 posts in the thread.  Whenever someone says "Staff" and is referring to a brute/scrapper/tanker, it's just that, a reference, not a result, not information.

 

In @Ston's melee test thread, he specifically doesn't test anything but the first two Staff attacks, so there is no actual test of Staff Fighting's performance.  The set isn't being tested there.  The set's gimmick of Form stacks isn't being tested.  The two powers which would benefit the most, one of which, Eye of the Storm, capable of improving set performance across the board due to the -Res, aren't even used.

 

That's not data.  That's not evidence.  That's not metrics or measurements of Staff, they're opinions, based on faulty and/or skewed examinations formulated entirely around approaches that ignores Staff as a whole and make vacuum comparisons, and hearsay.  Threads insisting that "Stalker Staff is only good Staff", but no data, no tests, no information, no evidence, just a repetition of something someone said 4.5 years ago.  No-one has actually proved that brute/scrapper/tanker Staff has a problem.  Where are the actual tests?  Where are the attack chains and builds?  Where are the tests with different Forms used and compared?  Where is the data?  Where is the evidence?  Not hearsay.  Not "I feel like".  Not tests conducted on two powers, neither of which benefit from Staff's set gimmick, followed by a sweeping generalization about the set as a whole.  Actual hard data.  Facts.  Proven, verified, repeatable, falsifiable results, documented and disseminated.  Where?

 

In the very few REAL tests which have been conducted, performed by @Galaxy Brain (all now 2-4 years old), Staff sits in the middle of the pack on the SO standard, and it's not dropping very far when he switches to an IO build and cranks the difficulty up to +3/x5, it's still generally middle of the road for damage output and above the curve for survivability.  Given that part of Staff's gimmick toolkit is increased survivability (+Def (Guarded Spin), +Res (Sky Splitter at 3 stacks of Form of the Body), +Regen (Sky Splitter at 3 stacks of Form of the Soul)), it shouldn't be in the top tiers in damage output as well.  It cannot provide improved survivability and best-in-class damage, it has to sacrifice one or the other for balance.

 

 

Here, for example, @Galaxy Brain does stress tests of each primary to discover how well they stand up to being swamped with enemies.  Note where Staff sits.  Also not e that this test was conducted before Titan Weapons was revamped.

 

 

In this test, he restricts himself to SOs and checks the performance and survivability at +0/x8.  Staff is, from a development perspective, exactly where every set should be, in the center.

 

This is data.  This is evidence.  These are facts.  This is information from which an educated, informed conclusion may be drawn.  "feels bad man, no BU staff sux" is not.

 

Moreover, this is all the HC team actually has to inform them, aside from their own metrics, since there's nothing else.

 

11 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

As you said the three form do buff the damage of EotS and SS, along with providing other benefits, but its such a small buff that it is more single target damage just to skip the majority of the set

 

Link the threads/posts with the test results examining Staff chains, with and without Form buffs, single-target and AoE, SO and IO builds, inspiration usage, Incarnates, all variables accounted for, and the direct comparisons to non-standard chains (like the one you used as an example... with only two Staff attacks... to portray the entirety of Staff's capabilities...), and comparable test data from other sets.  I yearn for enlightenment.  And I don't mean that facetiously.  I'm always serious about testing and accumulating data.  Gimme.

 

11 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

As for Guarded Spin why would that need to be adjusted? Other sets such as Katana have very similar powers and overall put out more damage.

 

Guarded Spin is a T2 cone which deals ~40% more damage than those "similar" T5 single-target powers.  It's available earlier, it hits harder, it has a longer reach, it hits more targets, and since it hits more targets, it's almost impossible for it to fail to apply its +Def (whereas Parry and Divine Avalanche are statistically guaranteed to miss 5% of the time, and can miss more often in numerous situations (ToHit debuffed, insufficient slotted or global +Acc/+ToHit when facing +X foes, enemies with strong Defense to Lethal or Melee, mixed single-target attacks with AoEs allowing single-target attacks to miss without being forced to hit)).  It's good for damage mitigation and it deals appreciable damage.  Improving it further would require nerfing it in some way or moving it to a much higher tier to keep it balanced.

 

That's exactly what I'm referring to when I say "vacuum comparison".  You can't compare Guarded Spin to Parry or Divine Avalanche simply because they all buff Melee/Lethal Defense.  It doesn't work within the context of the sets or the powers' functionality as a whole.  Ignoring relevant factors invalidates conclusions.

[Rudra]

Just now, Uun said:

You're missing the point entirely. If you have a complete attack chain with no gaps, the power's recharge is irrelevant to the set's damage output.

Actually, I'm not. I'm being snide. Almost every level 50 character I have or have made back on Live had a gapless attack rotation. And those rotations were dependent on my having a good enough recharge. So for my EM/WP Brute for instance. My attack chain is T1, T5, T2, T9, T1, T7, T5, T2, T9, T1, T7 ad infinitum. So the recharge of those powers is most definitely affecting their DPS.

[Rudra]

51 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The meta, where this complaint originates, is focused on extreme proc usage and leverage of sources of +Recharge, +Dam and +Acc (the loudest complaints about Staff is lack of Build Up on brute/scrapper/tanker) to compensate for that slotting.  How a set actually performs is a secondary consideration in the meta, how individual powers perform with procs is the meta measurement.

 

Furthermore, what little Staff testing I've seen has struck me as ridiculously inadequate.  In the Trapdoor test thread in the Scrapper forum, Staff is only mentioned three times, not a single one of which shows an attack chain or build info, and one of those three mentions was an "I forgot to record my results, so I'm guessing" aside.  2 results given, out of 18 pages.

 

In the Pylon test thread in the Scrapper forum, not a single person has ever posted a time for a Staff scrapper, tanker or brute.  Not one.  Only stalkers.  Staff on three of the four archetypes has never actually been tested in that metric, and there are almost 2000 posts in the thread.  Whenever someone says "Staff" and is referring to a brute/scrapper/tanker, it's just that, a reference, not a result, not information.

 

In @Ston's melee test thread, he specifically doesn't test anything but the first two Staff attacks, so there is no actual test of Staff Fighting's performance.  The set isn't being tested there.  The set's gimmick of Form stacks isn't being tested.  The two powers which would benefit the most, one of which, Eye of the Storm, capable of improving set performance across the board due to the -Res, aren't even used.

 

That's not data.  That's not evidence.  That's not metrics or measurements of Staff, they're opinions, based on faulty and/or skewed examinations formulated entirely around approaches that ignores Staff as a whole and make vacuum comparisons, and hearsay.  Threads insisting that "Stalker Staff is only good Staff", but no data, no tests, no information, no evidence, just a repetition of something someone said 4.5 years ago.  No-one has actually proved that brute/scrapper/tanker Staff has a problem.  Where are the actual tests?  Where are the attack chains and builds?  Where are the tests with different Forms used and compared?  Where is the data?  Where is the evidence?  Not hearsay.  Not "I feel like".  Not tests conducted on two powers, neither of which benefit from Staff's set gimmick, followed by a sweeping generalization about the set as a whole.  Actual hard data.  Facts.  Proven, verified, repeatable, falsifiable results, documented and disseminated.  Where?

 

In the very few REAL tests which have been conducted, performed by @Galaxy Brain (all now 2-4 years old), Staff sits in the middle of the pack on the SO standard, and it's not dropping very far when he switches to an IO build and cranks the difficulty up to +3/x5, it's still generally middle of the road for damage output and above the curve for survivability.  Given that part of Staff's gimmick toolkit is increased survivability (+Def (Guarded Spin), +Res (Sky Splitter at 3 stacks of Form of the Body), +Regen (Sky Splitter at 3 stacks of Form of the Soul)), it shouldn't be in the top tiers in damage output as well.  It cannot provide improved survivability and best-in-class damage, it has to sacrifice one or the other for balance.

 

 

Here, for example, @Galaxy Brain does stress tests of each primary to discover how well they stand up to being swamped with enemies.  Note where Staff sits.  Also not e that this test was conducted before Titan Weapons was revamped.

 

 

In this test, he restricts himself to SOs and checks the performance and survivability at +0/x8.  Staff is, from a development perspective, exactly where every set should be, in the center.

 

This is data.  This is evidence.  These are facts.  This is information from which an educated, informed conclusion may be drawn.  "feels bad man, no BU staff sux" is not.

 

Moreover, this is all the HC team actually has to inform them, aside from their own metrics, since there's nothing else.

 

 

Link the threads/posts with the test results examining Staff chains, with and without Form buffs, single-target and AoE, SO and IO builds, inspiration usage, Incarnates, all variables accounted for, and the direct comparisons to non-standard chains (like the one you used as an example... with only two Staff attacks... to portray the entirety of Staff's capabilities...), and comparable test data from other sets.  I yearn for enlightenment.  And I don't mean that facetiously.  I'm always serious about testing and accumulating data.  Gimme.

 

 

Guarded Spin is a T2 cone which deals ~40% more damage than those "similar" T5 single-target powers.  It's available earlier, it hits harder, it has a longer reach, it hits more targets, and since it hits more targets, it's almost impossible for it to fail to apply its +Def (whereas Parry and Divine Avalanche are statistically guaranteed to miss 5% of the time, and can miss more often in numerous situations (ToHit debuffed, insufficient slotted or global +Acc/+ToHit when facing +X foes, enemies with strong Defense to Lethal or Melee, mixed single-target attacks with AoEs allowing single-target attacks to miss without being forced to hit)).  It's good for damage mitigation and it deals appreciable damage.  Improving it further would require nerfing it in some way or moving it to a much higher tier to keep it balanced.

 

That's exactly what I'm referring to when I say "vacuum comparison".  You can't compare Guarded Spin to Parry or Divine Avalanche simply because they all buff Melee/Lethal Defense.  It doesn't work within the context of the sets or the powers' functionality as a whole.  Ignoring relevant factors invalidates conclusions.

Very good point about the Build Up. Just checked to verify, and there are exactly two differences between Stalker Staff Fighting and Scrapper/Tanker/Brute Staff Fighting. Stalkers give up the taunt for Placate, and more importantly, they give up Staff Mastery for Build Up. That's it. The powers available are the exact same otherwise.

 

(Edit: It's also telling that the author says Scrapper Staff Fighting is the worst of them all while Stalker is the best of them all, when Scrapper Staff Fighting does more damage by itself than Stalker Staff Fighting. For instance, Sky Splitter has a base starting damage before adding in the attack's later damage or the chance to inflict damage of 76.7421 damage on a Stalker, but 86.3349 damage on a Scrapper. And the Scrapper's add on damage, both guaranteed and chance for, are higher than the Stalker's.)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[MirrorDarkly]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Very good point about the Build Up. Just checked to verify, and there are exactly two differences between Stalker Staff Fighting and Scrapper/Tanker/Brute Staff Fighting. Stalkers give up the taunt for Placate, and more importantly, they give up Staff Mastery for Build Up. That's it. The powers available are the exact same otherwise.

 

(Edit: It's also telling that the author says Scrapper Staff Fighting is the worst of them all while Stalker is the best of them all, when Scrapper Staff Fighting does more damage by itself than Stalker Staff Fighting. For instance, Sky Splitter has a base starting damage before adding in the attack's later damage or the chance to inflict damage of 76.7421 damage on a Stalker, but 86.3349 damage on a Scrapper. And the Scrapper's add on damage, both guaranteed and chance for, are higher than the Stalker's.)

 

You are missing that they get an Assasin Stike for a hard hitting single target as well (giving up the second cone I think). Also they also get Forn of the Body for free, they just can't switch to the other two. 

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

You are missing that they get an Assasin Stike for a hard hitting single target as well (giving up the second cone I think). Also they also get Forn of the Body for free, they just can't switch to the other two. 

You're right. I missed that. Apologies. They give up the Innocuous Strikes cone for the Assassin's Staff attack.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add last sentence.

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[Rudra]

56 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

Power Creep. Power Creep. Does whatever a Power Creep does. If he can, he'll take it all. Answering, the Power Creep call. Here comes the Power Creep!

 

(Edit: Maybe a Mind Control/Traps Controller? Or Mind Control/Poison?)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[Gobbledigook]

+recharge will allow you to use the biggest hitters more frequently which will improve the dps. A chain of 3-4 big damage/dpa attacks  for example. You could use a T1 power with no gap in it with enough +recharge but spamming that would be pretty bad dps.

 

Procs will have a better chance on longer recharge powers that can be chained.

 

+recharge allows more uses or Build Up also.

 

@Rudra

Edited August 31, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:54 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

haha yeah I totally agree with you on the low damage.

but in a game where you can throw balls of energy 

and punch a foe 30 feet away,

wacking a baddie with a stick shouldn't be that powerful?

at least that's my reasoning

😁

oh, and what if it’s not supposed to be “just a stick”? What if I’m playing Sun Wukong the Monkey King of Chinese my this wielding the gold banded staff Rui Jingubang? Neither wielder nor weapon is “just a stick”? Hey, tell me what power sets you play and I’ll tell you why in a world of super heroes your power sets should be weak and irrelevant against armies of godlike beings.

 

in case you can’t tell, I detest the logic you submit because it basically discourages people from playing what they want by soft locking them from content and creates “trap choices” in game design which is an absolutely terrible concept. And as someone who started playing katana/SR on live and dealt with the BS of even street level thugs having lethal resistance and almost all enemies at level 50 resisting almost half my damage as punishment for my earlier choice in character concept I hate it still!