I Have Discovered my Favourite Build!

[Force Redux]

To OP, glad you are enjoying DP/Ninjutsu. ;)

[Riverdusk]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

[XaoGarrent]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

That's an awfully big leap you're assuming there, and that's awfully uncharitable. Sure that's not what you WISH was the case, rather than what's ACTUALLY the case?

[Riverdusk]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

That's an awfully big leap you're assuming there, and that's awfully uncharitable. Sure that's not what you WISH was the case, rather than what's ACTUALLY the case?

 

An exaggeration in general of course yes (although I'd bet there are some where it wouldn't be).  However, I notice you didn't answer my question.  So how much of a damage boost do you think sentinels should get?  I think unless some specifics are thrown around instead of just "sentinel damage - oof" , it doesn't help much. 

[XaoGarrent]

An exaggeration in general of course yes (although I'd bet there are some where it wouldn't be).  However, I notice you didn't answer my question.  So how much of a damage boost do you think sentinels should get?  I think unless some specifics are thrown around instead of just "sentinel damage - oof" , it doesn't help much.

Why don't you suggest some numbers, then? You're the one that seems to want something set in stone, so you can begin.

[Sunsette]

I can't speak for Xao, and it's hard for me to say without actually having 'feel'.

 

I'd estimate, though, that I think Sents are roughly:

 

- 10-20% too low in ST damage for a 'solo AT'

- 5% too low in defenses and 50% too low in threat and HP for an Off-Tank

- 25 to 50% of the uptime that Opportunity needs for a support AT with a need for more Endurance if they're expected to bring Leadership toggles to shore up their lack of group friendliness.

 

I don't think all of these need to be tweaked -- if more than one was fully tweaked, in fact, I think it'd make the AT broken and too powerful (though we already have other ATs that suffer from that issue with the VEATs). But I think adjustment in those ranges are appropriate.

 

I actually think sent does fine fully IO'ed out but it feels lacking -- safe, yes, but boring and lacking -- on the way up to 50 IMO. Brute and Scrapper are generally safer choices (better defenses, better HP, they kill threats faster) and a good deal less boring. It wasn't until very late that I felt like my build was mechanically rewarding to play.

 

Were I they I'd go with 5 to 10% more damage I think, and doing the following to the Masteries:

- Replace Mind Probe with a heal and make Link Minds a toggle (Psionic Mastery)

- Add +damage effect to Warmth (Fire Mastery)

- Add +end effect to Rehabilitating Circuit (Electric Mastery)

 

And similar small touch-ups on other APP sets to make it so Leadership and Fighting Pools aren't competing so hard with the APP on an AT that has to grab heavily from both primary and secondary. I'd also probably merge Offensive and Defensive Opportunity so either the T1 or T2 trigger an identical power with all of the effects of each one combined.

[Force Redux]

How about a flat 10% damage increase? Equivalent to Assault. Not a huge bump, but measurable and a step towards a bit more parity as a tweak. Either that or rework the class passive to provide power-agnostic benefits to improve damage.

[Sunsette]

Flat 10% damage increase at the base power level (rather than in the damage bonus layer) would probably do it, yeah. 10% would make such a big difference when chewing through regeneration of +1 boss mobs, I feel. But hard to say without actually trying.

 

I did Lamba yesterday and I felt amazing -- during the part where we're hunting containers, I remember feeling like, "my Brute never could have done this, not in the same way." My sent was flying with afterburner, setting off at a distance, sniping the containers with IO-boosted range to be out of aggro, holding as a fill-in tank for the lighter blasters waiting for a true controller or brute/scrapper to show up and take a mob. It was the only time I've felt like the sentinel experience was unique rather than a limited version of another AT's experience, and I shouldn't have had to wait to be 50+3 to find that moment, y'know?

[XaoGarrent]

I can't speak for Xao, and it's hard for me to say without actually having 'feel'.

You more or less did. I'm mostly in agreement with this post. I just don't want to give concrete numbers because availability of good information on their values is scarce, and I don't like doing things off feeling or gut instinct. I also have zero idea what they're planning on doing for the inherent rework and that could change literally everything.

[Sunsette]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I hope they let us know what they're thinking when they begin to move on that front, though I know we've got to finish the Blaster Snipe push at the least first.

[oldskool]

10% base damage isn't a lot.  I spun up a character, gave them Assault (10.5%), and took a look at the numbers.  If that is all it would take to make them more "acceptable", then their actual damage isn't that bad.  Especially not when you consider just how easy it is to make an attack chain. 

 

I'd love a damage boost, but damage isn't my concern with the AT. 

 

I do think the defense value needs to be moved from 0.7 to 0.75.  Their damage being what it is doesn't justify the lower across the board defense when that same modifier also applies to things like Mezz resistance.  Minor annoyance, but I'd like to see it reviewed if it hasn't been. 

 

The big issue though, is Opportunity.  Not just what it provides, but how it is triggered.  I've played 4 Sentinels so far. They are very fun.  However, I find some Sentinels do want to keep their Tier 1 and Tier 2 in their rotation from start to finish.  Dual Pistols is one of those sets.  Pistols and Dual Wield DPA are good enough when using Incendiary Ammo that their attack rotation doesn't vary from other AT's.  Suppressive Fire gains no damage from the ammo toggles.  It loses ground the more you build up your character. 

 

This means my attack chain includes both triggers (heh) to Opportunity.  If I want to use Offensive but I've just clicked Pistols when the circle comes up, then I have to decide to skip Dual Wield for a moment.  I either eat the gap, or I use Suppressive Fire.  With high levels of recharge, Pistols recharges so fast that gap isn't as obnoxious as it sounds, but it is cumbersome prior to that. 

 

I'd much rather have two buttons not tied to my attacks to activate the inherent or something else.  And the attack routine issue comes up in Dark Blast and Assault Rifle too.  Both of those sets have 2 good DPA Tier 1 and 2 attacks that cycle with 2 other attacks.  It takes more recharge than is practical for most players to get to a point where you can completely drop that. 

 

My Beam Rifle Sentinel is very different though.  Once you more of the set you can largely ignore Single Shot and Charged Shot in favor of everything else.  I keep them to activate which ever Opportunity I want.  However, I'd love the option to completely drop one in favor of something else.  I can already do that, but that means I have to ignore the situational value I find in DefensiveO over the more common value I find in OffensiveO. 

 

[Tankshock]

I've only taken one Sent to 50, 3 more to thirty.  I think their class feature is weaker than others because they don't need it. They are an incredibly balanced, easy to play class.  A little bit of end issues at the lower levels, but that isn't uncommon. I even experienced the "cheap" build while leveling my first. 

 

They aren't designed to take aggro. But they can dish out a ton of damage without micromanaging their own defenses, as long as they don't take alpha. It's kind of funny. As COH players we talk about how this game breaks the holy trinity. But then a class comes along and we try to shoehorn it into the existing roles.

[Clave Dark 5]

This is totally my whole motto to the game.

I think you missed the implied point. Numbers are one of a number of causal factors in what makes something fun.

 

They're the *only* causal factor, depending on how you look at it. All things exist in a measurable state. Colors exist on a scale that can be represented numerically, animation times and recharges are counted in seconds, resources and meters come in and are replenished in a finite quantities, etc.

 

You could really just boil that down and say that fun is logically representable. As in, you don't even need numbers, what causes people to experience "fun" can be narrowed down to a fundamentally knowable state that one can simply measure with their senses. You can even condition people into *being* part of the knowable state, hence my mention of masochism.

 

"Fun trumps all" as a response to numbers is not only a gross simplification, and an empty platitude... It's outright fallacious reasoning and creates a broken form of circular logic, which is utterly useless when trying to make informed decisions. You do realize that when you're creating a game you have to make objective determinations on things like fun, right? You do realize failing to do this is more or less paramount to creating a giant game of Calvin Ball, correct?

 

Fun trumps logic.

 

Ok, ok, so MY fun trumps YOUR numbers.

[nihilii]

I'm having fun with Sentinels. Their numbers aren't so bad if you look at all the numbers, I think.

 

i.e., consider the damage mobs do with melee attacks compared to their ranged options. I find my fire/rad sentinel has significantly higher survivability than my TW/rad scrapper, despite the former having no mitigation from her primary and the latter KDing things all over the place.

 

(But, that might also be due to personal incompetence dealing with TW's "on/off" nature. YMMV)

 

I'd never say no to any buffs. If we can get the various Sentinel bugs fixed, that'd be a great boon too. i.e. Blazing Blast doing less damage than it should... ;)

[earthaddy]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

 

I don't know what the right numbers are, but I do know that I have a beam/rad sentinel and a beam/devices blaster, both around level 30ish, I have a 44 pistols/wp sent and a 35 pistols,atomic blaster. And the blasters can solo on higher difficulty than the Sentinels. That doesn't sound like trading safety for damage to me. I feel safer on the blaster, unless I get mezzed. But unless there are multiple mezzing mobs in the group it's a non-issue.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

10% base damage isn't a lot.  I spun up a character, gave them Assault (10.5%), and took a look at the numbers.  If that is all it would take to make them more "acceptable", then their actual damage isn't that bad.  Especially not when you consider just how easy it is to make an attack chain. 

 

I'd love a damage boost, but damage isn't my concern with the AT. 

 

I do think the defense value needs to be moved from 0.7 to 0.75.  Their damage being what it is doesn't justify the lower across the board defense when that same modifier also applies to things like Mezz resistance.  Minor annoyance, but I'd like to see it reviewed if it hasn't been. 

 

The big issue though, is Opportunity.  Not just what it provides, but how it is triggered.  I've played 4 Sentinels so far. They are very fun.  However, I find some Sentinels do want to keep their Tier 1 and Tier 2 in their rotation from start to finish.  Dual Pistols is one of those sets.  Pistols and Dual Wield DPA are good enough when using Incendiary Ammo that their attack rotation doesn't vary from other AT's.  Suppressive Fire gains no damage from the ammo toggles.  It loses ground the more you build up your character. 

 

This means my attack chain includes both triggers (heh) to Opportunity.  If I want to use Offensive but I've just clicked Pistols when the circle comes up, then I have to decide to skip Dual Wield for a moment.  I either eat the gap, or I use Suppressive Fire.  With high levels of recharge, Pistols recharges so fast that gap isn't as obnoxious as it sounds, but it is cumbersome prior to that. 

 

I'd much rather have two buttons not tied to my attacks to activate the inherent or something else.  And the attack routine issue comes up in Dark Blast and Assault Rifle too.  Both of those sets have 2 good DPA Tier 1 and 2 attacks that cycle with 2 other attacks.  It takes more recharge than is practical for most players to get to a point where you can completely drop that. 

 

My Beam Rifle Sentinel is very different though.  Once you more of the set you can largely ignore Single Shot and Charged Shot in favor of everything else.  I keep them to activate which ever Opportunity I want.  However, I'd love the option to completely drop one in favor of something else.  I can already do that, but that means I have to ignore the situational value I find in DefensiveO over the more common value I find in OffensiveO.

 

A 10% boost to base damage is actually a lot better than assault's +10% since a base damage boost is then in turn affected by enhancements and other damage boosts, whereas assault is flat.  I wouldn't judge it by assault in other words.

 

Some good ideas.  I do agree the more fun and unique buff would be to improve Opportunity.  I'd like to see it trigger more and give it some more -res and maybe some -regen on the offensive choice.  Honestly perhaps ditch the defensive choice that most don't use and combine both offensive and defensive into one.  I'm not sure that "choice" will ever really be much of a real choice 95% of the time.  Would also fix the issue of having to take both powers, make it so either tier 1 and tier 2 both activate the same thing so you can use either one.

[Fedifensor]

Not sure how this turned into a thread about issues with the class, but okay...

 

The #1 problem Sentinels have is the way Opportunities are triggered.  It’s the primary part of our inherent, and it basically has a power tax attached to it.  You don’t take your Tier 1 primary, and you don’t get Offensive Opportunities.  You don’t take your Tier 2 Primary, and you don’t get Defensive Opportunities.  I think there are only two viable solutions - either combine the two so activating either your Tier 1 or Tier 2 gives an Opportunity that combines the effects of Offensive and Defensive, or give a separate button (similar to what Dominators get) to trigger Defensive Opportunity, and let either of the first two primary powers trigger an Offensive Opportunity.

 

The other issue is that target caps seem to be a bit small, given that we have a defensive powerset to survive enemy aggro.  It’s strange that a blaster can not just hit more foes, but a LOT more foes...but can’t survive the aggro unless they can wipe out the majority of foes with their alpha strike.

 

Damage seems quite acceptable to me...but I also run with Fire/Fire, which has Molten Embrace giving a constant boost to damage.  Survivability also seems fine...but I run a heavily-IOd build that may not be the experience of the average player.

[Desdomen]

Some good ideas.  I do agree the more fun and unique buff would be to improve Opportunity.  I'd like to see it trigger more and give it some more -res and maybe some -regen on the offensive choice.  Honestly perhaps ditch the defensive choice that most don't use and combine both offensive and defensive into one.  I'm not sure that "choice" will ever really be much of a real choice 95% of the time.  Would also fix the issue of having to take both powers, make it so either tier 1 and tier 2 both activate the same thing so you can use either one.

 

One change  to Opportunity which I think would make the AT better overall is turn it into a stacking debuff on target. Every attack gives a stack to the target. Each stack is a -Res/Def debuff. Get to X stacks on a target, trigger an offensive bonus just for you. Get to Y stacks, trigger a defensive bonus.

 

Switch targets, lose all stacks. AoE attacks put stacks on only a mob with stacks already (if included I AoE) or your target (for targeted AoE) or strongest mob affected (if no stacks inside and no target).

 

This rewards a specific style of play (“Keep focusing down one enemy”) while keeping the team play (“Hit my target for better attacks”) and keeping the offensive and defensive opportunities fairly intact (while taking them off of specific attacks for those that either skip those powers or actively use them).

[oldskool]

A 10% boost to base damage is actually a lot better than assault's +10% since a base damage boost is then in turn affected by enhancements and other damage boosts, whereas assault is flat.  I wouldn't judge it by assault in other words.

 

I can see where you would assume that is what I was thinking.  I'm not basing a judgment based on Assault itself. 

 

In other words, I'm saying moving a power from 82 damage per activation to 90 damage per activation is the threshold of where "acceptance" is.  Or we add 3 more damage to a 30 damage T1 power and so on. 

 

I realize the damage adds up once all attacks considered are enhanced, but that value isn't going to be an earth shattering metric.  If 10% is all it would take to make more people think the damage was acceptable, then the hyperbolic arguments about current performance seem even more absurd.  (Not accusing anyone specifically, but the overall gauge of community feedback around the "Sentinels SUCK" --- but if they did 10% more damage it'd be good. Give me a break.)

 

[Tankshock]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

 

I don't know what the right numbers are, but I do know that I have a beam/rad sentinel and a beam/devices blaster, both around level 30ish, I have a 44 pistols/wp sent and a 35 pistols,atomic blaster. And the blasters can solo on higher difficulty than the Sentinels. That doesn't sound like trading safety for damage to me. I feel safer on the blaster, unless I get mezzed. But unless there are multiple mezzing mobs in the group it's a non-issue.

 

It is worth noting that mez is a much bigger deal at the higher levels.  There are groups a Blaster will die *much* more frequently to than a Sentinel, strictly due to mez.  Blaster have (almost) always fallen behind the power curve at the highest levels.

[earthaddy]

I am curious as to exactly how much damage would make sentinel's "acceptable" to those that complain about their damage.  Get the feeling unless they got full blaster level damage we'd see complaints.

 

I don't know what the right numbers are, but I do know that I have a beam/rad sentinel and a beam/devices blaster, both around level 30ish, I have a 44 pistols/wp sent and a 35 pistols,atomic blaster. And the blasters can solo on higher difficulty than the Sentinels. That doesn't sound like trading safety for damage to me. I feel safer on the blaster, unless I get mezzed. But unless there are multiple mezzing mobs in the group it's a non-issue.

 

It is worth noting that mez is a much bigger deal at the higher levels.  There are groups a Blaster will die *much* more frequently to than a Sentinel, strictly due to mez.  Blaster have (almost) always fallen behind the power curve at the highest levels.

 

Well, I'm also sure that as the defensive powers get slotted out better, survivability will go up as well. But everything can't be balanced around billion-isk end game builds either. And blasters can hit the defense caps at end game, too. So we're basically talking about mez protection. Mez protection is quite nice. But is it worth doing about 60% of the damage of a blaster. Ancient Alien theorists say that's a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

[Lockpick]

Well, I'm also sure that as the defensive powers get slotted out better, survivability will go up as well. But everything can't be balanced around billion-isk end game builds either. And blasters can hit the defense caps at end game, too. So we're basically talking about mez protection. Mez protection is quite nice. But is it worth doing about 60% of the damage of a blaster. Ancient Alien theorists say that's a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

 

This is the fundamental question to me.  When playing a Blaster I can pump out more damage, but I also take a lot of damage / mez and I run or die more, which impacts my ability to put out damage.  With the Sentinel, I put out less damage, but don't die or get mezzed, so I can keep putting out damage.

 

There has to be a logical break between the 2 ATs to make one better than the other.  I am playing:

 

Blaster:

DP/MC

DP/EM

DP/Ninja Training

 

Sentinel:

DP/Ninjitsu

DP/SR

DP/WP

DP/Bio

 

Frankly it just seems to boil down to what you find to be the most fun.  Right now it is my DP/MC and my DP/Ninjitsu.

[earthaddy]

 

This is the fundamental question to me.  When playing a Blaster I can pump out more damage, but I also take a lot of damage / mez and I run or die more, which impacts my ability to put out damage.  With the Sentinel, I put out less damage, but don't die or get mezzed, so I can keep putting out damage.

 

 

My experience has been, unless I get mezzed, I put out enough damage on the blaster that stuff just dies, and I take less damage than I do on a sentinel, slogging it out. The level 20 blaster powers are no joke defensively, either. I quite literally play both my blasters one difficulty level higher than my sentinels. With the Beam/devices I can go even higher because I don't miss, no matter how purple they are, but it does get a little sketchy at times. Granted, they are at levels where the defense isn't fully slotted on the sentinels. But those levels are part of the game. I'm not trading damage for safety on the sentinels, I'm just losing damage.

[Sunsette]

Some good ideas.  I do agree the more fun and unique buff would be to improve Opportunity.  I'd like to see it trigger more and give it some more -res and maybe some -regen on the offensive choice.  Honestly perhaps ditch the defensive choice that most don't use and combine both offensive and defensive into one.  I'm not sure that "choice" will ever really be much of a real choice 95% of the time.  Would also fix the issue of having to take both powers, make it so either tier 1 and tier 2 both activate the same thing so you can use either one.

 

One change  to Opportunity which I think would make the AT better overall is turn it into a stacking debuff on target. Every attack gives a stack to the target. Each stack is a -Res/Def debuff. Get to X stacks on a target, trigger an offensive bonus just for you. Get to Y stacks, trigger a defensive bonus.

 

Switch targets, lose all stacks. AoE attacks put stacks on only a mob with stacks already (if included I AoE) or your target (for targeted AoE) or strongest mob affected (if no stacks inside and no target).

 

This rewards a specific style of play (“Keep focusing down one enemy”) while keeping the team play (“Hit my target for better attacks”) and keeping the offensive and defensive opportunities fairly intact (while taking them off of specific attacks for those that either skip those powers or actively use them).

 

I don't think I'd like this change, personally. Opportunity isn't a great mechanic as-is, no, and I think as far as high-concept 'fixing the class' it's more important to be fixed. But in order to make the most of my AoEs I have to target switch heavily (and also guess that, hopefully, another important kill target will be one of the ones semi-randomly chose since I go over target cap so often).

 

It's very dumb that this game requires targets for cones, since it limits cone placement so much.

 

 

A 10% boost to base damage is actually a lot better than assault's +10% since a base damage boost is then in turn affected by enhancements and other damage boosts, whereas assault is flat.  I wouldn't judge it by assault in other words.

 

I can see where you would assume that is what I was thinking.  I'm not basing a judgment based on Assault itself. 

 

In other words, I'm saying moving a power from 82 damage per activation to 90 damage per activation is the threshold of where "acceptance" is.  Or we add 3 more damage to a 30 damage T1 power and so on. 

 

I realize the damage adds up once all attacks considered are enhanced, but that value isn't going to be an earth shattering metric.  If 10% is all it would take to make more people think the damage was acceptable, then the hyperbolic arguments about current performance seem even more absurd.  (Not accusing anyone specifically, but the overall gauge of community feedback around the "Sentinels SUCK" --- but if they did 10% more damage it'd be good. Give me a break.)

 

This is why Xao was hesitant to give numbers I think. I gave a range (10 to 20%) and spoke in probablies for a reason -- it's hard to say without actually seeing it in action. But I think it does matter quite a lot.

 

- Defensive Opportunity is a lot better than people give it credit for. While Opportunity is not a very fun mechanic as-is for various reasons, the offensive boost on offensive opportunity is low enough and the end return on defensive opportunity is great enough that I don't think it matters heavily for the leveling experience which one goes off when the attack chain forces you to take the wrong one. Neither is a dramatic immediate improvement to your life over the other, but something that to make the most out of you've planned.

- 10 to 20% is a big difference considering how slow it is for Sentinels to finish getting their defenses up (as someone else noted) and how often I've basically died while leveling as a result of having multiple 'almost dead' enemies, as well as how sluggish and slow it can be to finish off a single hard target now that I'm IO'ed up. Regeneration means 10% more damage can be a lot more than 10% less time to kill a target.

 

Fire having a solid-feeling kill speed sort of backs me up I think -- most of the people 'in the wild' who seem to be most satisfied with their sentinel are Fire, Beam, or Bio Armor which either up the damage in a big way or drop -regen to make hard targets not so hard.

[GM Tempest]

Behave.