Can scrappers get a Taunt aura for Super reflexes?

[BlueValkyrie]

SR is a fun powerset, but I've found it to be annoying on scrappers due to its lack of Taunt aura.  Evasion gives taunt for brutes and tanks but not for scrappers or stalkers; and when soloing its annoying as hell to chase down half the enemies your fighting as they go running randomly throughout the map. 

 

Even Energy Aura gets a taunt, and a stealth, which can be a little hypocritical. 

[UltraAlt]

If you want a AoE taunt, use the https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Presence : https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Presence#Provoke

 

Super Reflexes is based around avoiding attacks and not drawing them to you. It was one of the original power sets in CoH.

 

I think all the scrapper primaries have a power to pull a single target and all (or most of them) have AoE and/or Cone powers to draw agro even if they don't have a threat component.

 

I like Super Reflexes the way that it was designed.

 

The scrapper archetype isn't built to be an agro magnet - that was intentionally limited to tanks up on release of the game and then given to brutes so villains would have an agro magnet in their archetype picks..

 

If you look a the scrapper AoE powers that have a taunt component, they are usually doing more of something else and are generally too weak to hold the agro if a blaster is AoE-ing or cone-attacking things.

Scrapper taunt is nowhere near as powerful as a tank. Brute taunt isn't as powerful as a tanks, but they still have a more powerful innate taunt than scrappers.

 

Tanks can have super reflexes at this point, but even they don't get a taunt aura, but, then again, the whole point of super reflexes is not to get hit in the first place ... so why are you trying to attract agro?

That being said, unless you are just end gaming and trying to draw excessive numbers, the tanker taunt with a recharge in it does enough threat to hold the agro on most mobs continually.

Edited November 1, 2023 by UltraAlt

[BlueValkyrie]

9 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you want a AoE taunt, use the https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Presence : https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Presence#Provoke

 

Super Reflexes is based around avoiding attacks and not drawing them to you. It was one of the original power sets in CoH.

 

I think all the scrapper primaries have a power to pull a single target and all (or most of them) have AoE and/or Cone powers to draw agro even if they don't have a threat component.

 

I like Super Reflexes the way that it was designed.

 

The scrapper archetype isn't built to be an agro magnet - that was intentionally limited to tanks up on release of the game and then given to brutes so villains would have an agro magnet in their archetype picks..

 

If you look a the scrapper AoE powers that have a taunt component, they are usually doing more of something else and are generally too weak to hold the agro if a blaster is AoE-ing or cone-attacking things.

Scrapper taunt is nowhere near as powerful as a tank. Brute taunt isn't as powerful as a tanks, but they still have a more powerful innate taunt than scrappers.

 

Tanks can have super reflexes at this point, but even they don't get a taunt aura, but, then again, the whole point of super reflexes is not to get hit in the first place ... so why are you trying to attract agro?

That being said, unless you are just end gaming and trying to draw excessive numbers, the tanker taunt with a recharge in it does enough threat to hold the agro on most mobs continually.

 

As I said it would be mainly for soloing reasons, its just annoying as hell to have to run around the map chasing half a dozen enemies that run away from you in every fight.  And Tankers do get the taunt aura, as do brutes. 

[Ston]

Yep, Evasion is a taunt aura on Brutes/Tankers: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.super_reflexes.evasion&at=tanker

I don't think every Scrapper set needs taunt aura. I think the game just needs to fix the terrible AI feeling engine that forces enemies to run away if they take 10 ticks of damage within a certain amount of time.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Ston

[BlueValkyrie]

7 minutes ago, Ston said:

Yep, Evasion is a taunt aura on Brutes/Tankers: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.super_reflexes.evasion&at=tanker

I don't think every Scrapper set needs taunt aura. I think the game just needs to fix the terrible AI feeling engine that forces enemies to run away if they take 10 ticks of damage within a certain amount of time.

I agree with that, as Ninja defense has no taunt either, which makes sense considering its a stealth based powerset, which is why I noted the Energy Aura set which gets both stealth and and taunt, for some reason. It's also a set that focus on avoiding damage.  Out the three major defense sets SR always seemed like the more confrontational of the powersets, which is why Tanks and Brutes get it, so I figured scrappers could use a taunt aura on it. If you wanna go taunt aura less there's the stalker option. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by BlueValkyrie

[PeregrineFalcon]

I like the fact that some Scrapper sets have a taunt aura and some do not.

 

I also like that my SR Scrapper does not have a taunt aura. I prefer only drawing the amount of aggro that I can handle.

[BrandX]

From what I understand, the sets with taunt auras are the sets that have something about them that gets better as the more enemies around them.

 

WP -ToHit on the enemy and more Regen of the enemies around you (I'm going to guess the -ToHit isn't a factor, just the Regen)

 

Shield +DMG and -DMG (however, I believe this is for the +DMG with the -DMG not being a factor in it)

 

Radiation +RCH, -ToHit and -Def (the -Def isn't likely a factor and probably not the -ToHit either)

 

Invulnerability +Def and +ToHit (like Shield, this is likely due to the +DEF, so you're more protected)

 

Energy Aua +RCH

 

 

 

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, BrandX said:

WP -ToHit on the enemy and more Regen of the enemies around you (I'm going to guess the -ToHit isn't a factor, just the Regen)

Yeah, RttC's -ToHit doesn't change based on number of enemies around you. Just the +Regen.

[BrandX]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yeah, RttC's -ToHit doesn't change based on number of enemies around you. Just the +Regen.

 

No, but I'd think it'd more handy to have the enemies up close to you than ranged, so they get tagged by the -ToHit and you survive more too. 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, BlueValkyrie said:

 

As I said it would be mainly for soloing reasons, its just annoying as hell to have to run around the map chasing half a dozen enemies that run away from you in every fight.  And Tankers do get the taunt aura, as do brutes. 

 

 

Seriously, when soloing, I haven't had to chase "half a dozen enemies that run away from you in every fight". I don't see that all.

What are you doing to make them run away from you? (I'm guessing playing at 50+ set at +4, x8 which is not normal gameplay.)

 

Oh, I see Evasion has a taunt built into it. Thanks for pointing out which power so I didn't have to dig around to find it.

 

At any rate, you can get the presence: provoke power and use that when they try to get away. You should also have your single target taunt to draw one back to you as well.

 

Instead of the taunt aura, you get extra defenses.

I'm fine with that.

 

If you are soloing and don't like how the scrapper plays, switch to a brute or a tank. It seems to be what you want anyway.

Edited November 1, 2023 by UltraAlt

[TheZag]

You would need to make a great case as to why a scrapper set should get a taunt aura.  The devs said no new scrapper sets would get a taunt aura and the existing sets with a taunt aura might not keep it.  Thats a long uphill argument to have them do a 180.

 

I figure the sets with taunt auras would be untouched for some time though since changes that cause loss of slotting options arent generally done.

 

[FupDup]

In addition to Ston's idea to solve the problem at the root source (mob fleeing behavior), I also think that there should be a generic taunt aura added to the Presence Pool as a tier 2 ability (need 1 prereq to pick it up). This would allow any AT to try being an off-tank. 

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

[lemming]

No time to hunt down the dev's remarks about scrapper taunts, but they have mentioned that they are leaving sets with taunt, but no new scrapper set will have a taunt aura.  And will not add it into existing that don't.

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Seriously, when soloing, I haven't had to chase "half a dozen enemies that run away from you in every fight". I don't see that all.

What are you doing to make them run away from you? (I'm guessing playing at 50+ set at +4, x8 which is not normal gameplay.)

This and no I don't think it's due to higher or more mobs.  Granted my main is Claws, so often, the runners, if any, die 30 ft away as I chase them down with Focus or Shockwave instead of Quickness, Swift and Sprint.  

 

PS:  Any damage causes Threat as does any Debuff value.  Put some DoT with Debuffs built in you have a perfect tool for 1)creating threat/drawing aggro and if Ston is correct about the AI it's also a good set up for causing runners ... and that my be another reason some of those sets have a taunt aura to help off set this factor in Threat.

 

[A.I.D.A.]

Runners are not a problem. Just jumpcast at them, or take an epic snipe like Zapp or Moonbeam or something. Maybe hit your Fold Space if you have it, and follow it up with an AoE. If it's really that big of an issue for you, take an AoE immobilize from an ancillary.

 

Taunt auras are absolutely not necessary for corralling or picking off runners.

[InvaderStych]

Notoriety settings have nothing to do with mob behavior. All that setting governs is relative level and the number of individuals in a mob.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Notoriety settings have nothing to do with mob behavior.

It has, I believe, a minor effect on mob behavior; mobs higher than you are slightly less likely to run, and lower-level mobs slightly more likely, but there are other factors (i.e., morale by faction — except for the Fakes, Nemesis mobs rarely ever run) that bury the difference in the noise.

[InvaderStych]

1 minute ago, srmalloy said:

It has, I believe, a minor effect on mob behavior; mobs higher than you are slightly less likely to run, and lower-level mobs slightly more likely, but there are other factors (i.e., morale by faction — except for the Fakes, Nemesis mobs rarely ever run) that bury the difference in the noise.

 

You are correct: relative level should have an indirect impact on target behavior, I was thinking earlier that I should have been more specific. 🙂

 

It was stated earlier in this thread that if someone was experiencing problems with runners it was because they were "playing at 50+ set at +4, x8 which is not normal gameplay."

 

That assertion is patently false. Setting aside that it is an accusation of someone having "wrongbadfun" because they play differently than the poster making that statement - something said poster has a long and embarrassing habit of doing, let's look more closely ...

 

In that relative level will reduce the effectiveness of debuffs as well as reduce incoming damage from the targets perspective, the effect of these inputs should be lessened against targets with a higher relative level. The exact opposite of the statement referenced above. I play at a variety of elevated notoriety settings, and can't say that I've seen much of a difference from one setting to the next. Faction definitely has more impact on it though - Resistance (Praetorians) spawn in scattered groups in most missions and will remain at range most of the time.

 

One instance in which it might seem like targets are running out to range more frequently at a higher relative level is that it simply takes longer to bring them down. But that's not a behavior change, it is a side effect of the conditions of the encounter.

 

I've mentioned before that a target that runs out to range and turns to fire is not problematic, and should be part of a decently written set of behaviors. Why should all the targets cluster around the murder-ball only to be taken down en masse? Doesn't make sense. These targets are easily redirected by a normal taunt, aura or otherwise.

 

Problematic runners are when the target in question simply just bugs out (idk, maybe the game tries to divide by zero or something) and sprints halfway across a mission map, or endlessly runs across a zone. A taunt aura doesn't do anything to fix those, my /SD scrapper can attest to this. Maybe a direct use of Taunt/Confront might reset the behavior - I've never tried. These are oddities/outliers, but frequent enough to be an annoyance. I am fairly certain that is not programmed behavior though, it happens when something has gone amiss.

 

To the topic at hand: A firm "no thanks" to adding a taunt aura to SR. As many have stated, not every scrapper armor needs (nor should get) one. I, like many folks, prefer to be able to chose to roll a scrapper with or without one depending on what I'm looking for out of that particular toon.

 

🍻

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Problematic runners are when the target in question simply just bugs out (idk, maybe the game tries to divide by zero or something) and sprints halfway across a mission map, or endlessly runs across a zone. A taunt aura doesn't do anything to fix those, my /SD scrapper can attest to this. Maybe a direct use of Taunt/Confront might reset the behavior

Nope. I can't speak for everyone, but every time I've had a mob decide to just bug out and hoof it to the other side of the world, no amount of taunting ever changed it. I have tried. Repeatedly. You need an immob', a hold, or a killing blow to stop them from just running when that happens.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Nope. I can't speak for everyone, but every time I've had a mob decide to just bug out and hoof it to the other side of the world, no amount of taunting ever changed it. I have tried. Repeatedly. You need an immob', a hold, or a killing blow to stop them from just running when that happens.

This. And I learned, painfully, back before Containment, the one hard rule for Controllers — if the AoE debuff anchor takes off running, cancel the debuff NOW. Otherwise you got two or three spawns aggro'd back onto you.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

This. And I learned, painfully, back before Containment, the one hard rule for Controllers — if the AoE debuff anchor takes off running, cancel the debuff NOW. Otherwise you got two or three spawns aggro'd back onto you.

Also, MMs, Corruptors, Dominators, and Defenders.

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

This and no I don't think it's due to higher or more mobs.  Granted my main is Claws, so often, the runners, if any, die 30 ft away as I chase them down with Focus or Shockwave instead of Quickness, Swift and Sprint.  

 

I don't know what I'm doing differently.

I don't experience may runners when I'm playing any melee character. I have more than 1 katana/super reflexes scrapper because I play on multiple servers (I try not to do the same combo more than once a server. So many to try!)

 

 

8 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

PS:  Any damage causes Threat as does any Debuff value.  Put some DoT with Debuffs built in you have a perfect tool for 1)creating threat/drawing aggro and if Ston is correct about the AI it's also a good set up for causing runners ... and that my be another reason some of those sets have a taunt aura to help off set this factor in Threat.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, and what you are saying seems to be confusing.

 

Damage, of course, causes an amount of threat. Taunts (Tank/brute AoE threat) and Scrapper Taunt (for lack of a better term for the single target Taunts that are all given different names) cause a longer duration threat than damage does (as far as can tell).

It seems to run:

(for initially causing the highest agro) Huge Amounts of damage>Tanker Taunt>Brute Taunt>Scrapper single-target Taunt>most damage

(for retaining agro over time) Tanker Taunt>Brute Taunt>ETA/VETAs>Scrapper single-target Taunt>ongoing damage

The Threat enhancement can increase the duration. Powers that can slot a threat enhancement probably have a longer built in taunt duration than powers that can not slot a threat enhancement.

 

You seem to be implying that after the threat duration wears off (threat causing the target to move into melee range and not use ranged attacks outside of melee range) that they will flee.

 

Perhaps, I have my AoEs and cones mixes in enough in my rotation that I'm able to keep threat on all the targets in a groups that I'm fighting. I generally don't go higher than x2 when I'm soloing.

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by UltraAlt
tweaking and spelling

[lemming]

I play scrappers enough and every so often there's a runner.  The one mob that seems to run the most seems to be council doggos. They run from my tanks as well.   If I get several "runners" it's usually because I hit my aggro limit.

[A.I.D.A.]

War Wolves have a different flee code than everything else. Sometime during Live, they were made to flee almost immediately after taking damage, to make it harder for people to grind them for Atlas Medallion.

 

I've noticed the Vampyri tend to have that code too, presumably for the same reason.