Why was Statesman killed off again?

[lemming]

15 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

But UltraAlt is 100% correct, Jack's most heinous crime was taking Champions, an amazing, organically balanced, possibly Turing-complete*, TTRPG -- it's main weakness was that it cried out for a computer to handle its laborious mechanics -- and turning it into the abomination that was Champions Online.

Jack just took the IP of the Champions Universe, nothing about the rules were involved with Champions Online.   (Not that I didn't have some issues there since I was a Champions player from 1st edition)

[DoctorDitko]

Me, too!

Champs just cried out to be a computer game, and the wasted opportunity still stings.

 

An artist friend and I pitched a computer game that was a pretty shameless Champs ripoff: Electric Heroes. No takers, because "No one plays superhero games!"

 

Uh, maybe 'cause there weren't any good ones? (I still remember reviewing Superman for Game News. >shudder<)

 

CoH is as close as I've ever seen, but Champs didn't have the rails. You could make gloriously unbalanced characters, like a guy who was indestructible and... nothing else. He was a proto-Tick without the mightiness, but a similar attitude. Such fun!

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by DoctorDitko
redundant redundancy removal

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:42 PM, Darmian said:

It's even trickier than that though 🙂 She's bound to Arachnos, not Recluse.

 

Eagerly awaiting the Issue where Arachnos becomes a force for good.

[srmalloy]

17 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

I had no idea we had it so well. I have a friend who bought a lifetime subscription for DC Online, so I tried it and thought they were greedy.

They are amateurs compared to that evilness!

Virtually all of the Asian-style MMOs, particularly the mobile games, are F2P, and make their entire revenue from the cash shop. MMOs in Asia had a fundamental difference from Western MMOs; the average home computer in Asia didn't have the graphics capability to run MMOs (if there was a home computer at all, and one with an internet connection), so the MMO publishers made deals with the PC baangs (internet cafes) to supply systems if they'd install their games. So where a typical Western MMO player would go home, log into the MMO from their computer, and either join their friends online to group, or play solo, the typical Asian MMO player would get together with their friends, go down to the bang, and play together as a group. Anything done solo in an Asian-style MMO is virtually always peripheral to the progress of any questline and is extremely grindy, with almost all quest content requiring a group for completion. Into this goes the cash shop; when you're already paying for the time on the computer at the baang, paying a subscription fee on top won't fly. So the basic game is free, and the publisher sets up a cash shop where the players can buy bits and pieces of upgrades as they decide they want them; this is seen as commonplace because of the many Asian countries where people have low incomes, and you see micro-transaction sales in RL -- the sachet, for example, where you could buy 5ml of shampoo for ~10¢, instead of buying a whole bottle of shampoo -- selling low-cost, low-profit-margin merchandise in large amounts. And Asian MMOs have gone in on this fully, from selling wide varieties of character customization items to items that 'eat' the XP loss from character death and even, in some games, raw materials for the people who don't want to take the time to gather them.

 

And because of the churn rate in F2P MMOs -- in most F2P MMOs, a player who joins a game in the first month after launch has only a 6.2% likelihood of still playing a year later, and players who join a game a year after launch have only a 35% chance of logging in the next day, with only 3% logging in a month later -- the publisher has only a relatively small window to get the average player to interact with the cash shop, so it is in their interest to put a wide variety of shinies in the cash shop, both to attract an initial purchase and to encourage the player to continue with the game to use or show off the shiny. Now, contrast this with City of Heroes. According to the player data that was reported by Matt Miller and other sources, CoH had a one-year retention rate in excess of 90%; you can see where nickel-and-diming the player for each little cosmetic item would rapidly become unsustainable in terms of player satisfaction.

 

 

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

3 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Me, too!

Champs just cried out to be a computer game, and the wasted opportunity still stings.

 

An artist friend and I pitched a computer game that was a pretty shameless Champs ripoff: Electric Heroes. No takers, because "No one plays superhero games!"

 

Uh, maybe 'cause there weren't any good ones? (I still remember reviewing Superman for Game News. >shudder<)

 

CoH is as close as I've ever seen, but Champs didn't have the rails. You could make gloriously unbalanced characters, like a guy who was indestructible and... nothing else. He was a proto-Tick without the mightiness, but a similar attitude. Such fun!

 

 

Thing about Champs was that it was the early day of pay to win...which is what I think NC wanted to do with CoH but had to re-code everything. I am not a fan of linear gear-driven builds like SWTOR and Champs had/has. What makes CoH so great..and why we are all so happy to be here right now...is the content that almost no 2 builds are the same.. I remember taking my Elec/Elec brute and fighting another Elec/Elec Brute in arena...and winning. Both of us were capped on smash/lethal/energy. I won because of procs lol. My melee attacks had 3-4 damage procs in them that, at the time were unresistable. It's what was so great..and still is. The meta isn't dictated by a couple skill points and a set of gear everyone plays for...  Champs also uses a TON of the sounds from CoH lol. 

 

 As for being unique, I know Star Trek Online had a great build system with bonuses (I heard Matt Miller designed that system for them)...but they made it a loot crate frenzy that myself spent thousands on for nothing... SWTOR I really liked until they brought in the Cartel Market...then, nerfed half the stuff I loved about the game. You want to talk about a game on rails lol... SWTOR was a game you didn't even need a jump button for...

Edited November 20, 2023 by OldSchool SC Fight Club

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

CoH is as close as I've ever seen, but Champs didn't have the rails. You could make gloriously unbalanced characters, like a guy who was indestructible and... nothing else. He was a proto-Tick without the mightiness, but a similar attitude. Such fun!

Champions, as a PnP RPG, relied heavily on having a human GM to sanity-check character builds. With an online game, you either accept the fact that you're going to get characters that... bend... the limits of the character design rules, or you block off the ability to even get close to the limits of the design mechanics. Cryptic took the second route with Champions Online and, in my opinion, did it badly, and then tried to patch over the holes and pushed it out to the players.

Edited November 20, 2023 by srmalloy

[Vic Raiden]

Great, now I got a craving for a direct video game adaptation of the Champions system (that isn't Champions Online)...

[twozerofoxtrot]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

MMOs in Asia had a fundamental difference from Western MMOs; the average home computer in Asia didn't have the graphics capability to run MMOs (if there was a home computer at all, and one with an internet connection), so the MMO publishers made deals with the PC baangs (internet cafes) to supply systems if they'd install their games.

 

Gonna be pedantic because I simply hate over generalized descriptions that drop nuance and further, engage in Oreintalism. 

 

If none of that matters to you, scroll past.

 

This is not "Asia" in your description. This is South Korea. Baang (excellent romanization) is 방 and is a Korean word meaning literally "room." The companies and their deals were Korean. Chinese developers may have copied the model but skipped PCs for the most part and went right to mobile. In a weird feedback loop, that bounced right back to Korea as well with pretty decent penetrations across Southeast Asia and the US.

 

The Japanese experience is remarkably different. This is why for example FF14 plays and is monetized so differently. Likewise, it fits into the US market so well. 

 

Source:

Me, a gamer who speaks Korean and Japanese and has lived in both countries for a combination of 7 years (with another 2 more to go).

Edited November 20, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot
✂️ redundant verbiage

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

I will say this (bit o history). I was deployed to ghanny and Iraq in the early 2000's (2/187th of 101st airborne for those brother who might be around). I got home (wounded) on July 21st 2004... My out date was August 4th of 2004. On my drive home from Ft. Campbell to OKC...I stopped in an old Walmart (before the supercenters lol). I stopped in the music section looking for the Perfect Circle song I heard on the radio...it wasn't out yet...So I browsed around and saw this big blue box, City of Heroes...it was an mmorpg with this open world thing going on. So, I have been an "mmo" guy since the days of Neverwinter Nights....and honestly...non-graphics telnet style Tradewars 2002 (which I still play btw). CoH appealed to me because of the Super Hero theme..and when I got it installed on my computer with my AMD ATI 256mb card...I was blown away. Even more so with the awesome community.

 

One of my very 1st experiences was in Atlas Park for some event... I had signed off there and signed back in a couple days later with this huge gathering of players. Statesman, Posi, etc were there live for something.  It was so cool knowing that the devs were playing the game. When CoV launched I was perma-hooked. I played avidly for a long time and when the ITF released and the recipe system, our team on the Champion server had the fasted speed run on ITF...like 40mins or something..I can't remember. I know it caught the eye of the dev or staff who played Synapse. He sent me a message on the boards and wanted tor un with my team to see how we were knocking ITF out so fast. He got his ass kicked in the ITF lol... we had a lot of fun. I had found a lot of issues with some procs then and he asked us to send screens etc of the proc showing hits but no effect on stats. The fact that the devs were so community involved right down to running an ITF with you was so above anything I had ever seen. you look at the attention to detail in the game....right down to the magazines on a table in a paper mish....and you see the passion for the content....

 

 This is why it blew me away on the Statesman thing. 8yrs of avid playing (while also 8yrs into EVE online) as a subber of 4 accounts. I saw this whole thing happen and it set me back for a moment. I got so busy traveling with work that I happened to sign on the last day of CoH in Pocket D and didn't even know the servers going down after that...for good. It was sad...and I was honestly shocked. The question of Statesman stuck of course. With my traveling for work, I met some great people from my Supergroup on Champion called Faux Pas ( if any of you are here, would love to reconnect). People that I actually visited in my travels and went and lunch with in their cities and even played at their homes on a day or 2 off before having to drive out to another job site. The CoH community was the best on the boards you could ask for...and I see it still with us old schoolers.. Hands down the best and most appreciative community an MMO could have.... and I don't think any game has ever had resurrection like this based on the community alone. I appreciate all the work being put in to keep the game going and even advancing according to the game plan of 2012... passion is still content...and content is still king...and that's why we are here. I started this game at 27yrs old.... and here I am still with it at a ripe 46 now...(even though everyone thinks I look 30 lmao..thanks Army deployment super soldier shots).

Edited November 20, 2023 by OldSchool SC Fight Club

[Healix]

OldSchool SC Fight Club, thank you for your wonderful post, and thank you for your service!

[tidge]

Nothing to do with JE or Statesman...

 

One side observation of my own: CoX was so immune to the South Korean style of factory play that "Inf Sellers" could barely make their presence known in-game during Live. There was no practical need to buy Inf... especially with Veteran Rewards, which made the repeated play incredibly bearable. The subscriber model as implemented, for all purposes negated the need for micro-transactions. I'm sure this rubbed NCSoft the wrong way, in multiple dimensions.

 

 

[Tankshock]

He was a great example of a Dev who should let PR handle the posts and stay offline.  But beyond that, he made a lot of game development mistakes that others have no doubt learned from.  It's great to have a "vision", but constantly reminding people that it's your game and your vision is more important than their fun was a mistake, and not just in hindsight.  Games have learned how to balance without using nerf-nukes.  I think he suffered from a bit of Muskitis, smelling himself on vision and underestimating the importance of details, execution, and teamwork.

[Yomo Kimyata]

He wasn't killed off at all.  It was a dream sequence and he was in the shower the entire time.

[Skyhawke]

[UltraAlt]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:40 PM, srmalloy said:

With an online game, you either accept the fact that you're going to get characters that... bend... the limits of the character design rules, or you block off the ability to even get close to the limits of the design mechanics. Cryptic took the second route with Champions Online and, in my opinion, did it badly, and then tried to patch over the holes and pushed it out to the players.

 

They didn't even do that. 

The used the rules that they had built for the Marvel Online project (which were probably largely based on City of Heroes).

The rules had nothing to do with the Champions RPG rules.

Just because they took the time to make sure all the Champions RPG travel power options were available in-game doesn't mean that they ported the rules ... because, based on all that I could tell, making sure that tunneling and the signature characters were in the game were the only things that they bothered to add to the existing rules that they already had set up in the framework for Marvel Online.

 

If you coded a game based on the actual game mechanics of the Champions RPG, you couldn't "bend... the limits of the character design rules".

In saying that, you also couldn't have unlimited options for Power Advantages, Power Limitations, and Disadvantages. Easy enough to code a power that can "only be usable once per day", "only usable when there is sunlight", or even "scared of the dark". But this kind of thing would have to be in selection window instead of a fill-in-the-blank.

Champions RPG character generation was entirely mathematical. Sure, you could mini-max it (first game I ever heard the term used) or even cookie-cutter it (I think it was the first game I ever heard that term used as well), but both were well within the game's mathematical character creation system.

 

Coding for a "real" version of the Original Champions (pre-Champions Online) character creation system would be incredibly complex once you delve into the real possibilities of the Power Advantages, Power Limitations, and Disadvantages system. Of course, additional options could be added as the game became profitable.

(Don't get me started on "tunneling".)

[srmalloy]

44 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you coded a game based on the actual game mechanics of the Champions RPG, you couldn't "bend... the limits of the character design rules".

I disagree. Where the limits bend is in the effect of the limitation/disadvantage — in a PnP game, the GM can ensure that the limitation or disadvantage affects the character with a frequency appropriate for the value of the limitation or disadvantage; in an online game, the content has to be aware of them and be capable of exploiting them — taking away a character's OAF, for example. And the player has more agency to minimize disadvantages in an online game — if a character takes extra damage from magic-based attacks, a GM can ensure that magic-based opponents appear periodically, while in an online game, the player can simply choose not to accept missions that would pit the character against magic-based opponents; it's much more complicated for an online system to make alterations in the game progress reactively to be responsive, particularly when working with groups. Look at CoH, and the problem, after the introduction of Kheldians, of the 'infectious' Void spawns, where a team with Kheldians would see Voids spawn, and after leaving the team, the other characters would still get void spawns, and they could pass them on to new teammates, until you logged out to reset the flag.

[SwitchFade]

Because his silly front half helmet deserved to be "retired."

 

[lemming]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Coding for a "real" version of the Original Champions (pre-Champions Online) character creation system would be incredibly complex once you delve into the real possibilities of the Power Advantages, Power Limitations, and Disadvantages system. Of course, additional options could be added as the game became profitable.

(Don't get me started on "tunneling".)

Knowing the people who were coding the original Champions PC Game, yes, very complex and at least we got a character creator out of it...  iirc, you can get the source code for the newer Hero Designer, I think that's all java.

 

But yea, no intersection between Champions MMO and the Hero Rule set.  6th edition didn't have any rules based on the mmo, etc... Just lore stuff went back and forth.   (Of course, the last I had a hell of a lot of contact with Hero system people was before a bunch of the involved people moved over to more PPUE stuff.)

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Where the limits bend is in the effect of the limitation/disadvantage — in a PnP game, the GM can ensure that the limitation or disadvantage affects the character with a frequency appropriate for the value of the limitation or disadvantage; in an online game, the content has to be aware of them and be capable of exploiting them — taking away a character's OAF,

 

If it isn't coded into the game for opponent's to try to take away the a focus then that is programming failure and not bending the rules.

It seems pretty clear that - at the very least - if the character is defeated (runs out of hit points) then their OAF is taken away from them.

But the game should already recognize that - at some point - it becomes known that the character is using a focus - whether it is an Obvious Accessible Focus - or an Inobvious Inaccessible Focus and enemies will strive to take that focus away from the player.

If the game isn't programed to allow the capture/removal of foci, then have a power in a focus as a limitation shouldn't be programed in as an option.

 

10 hours ago, srmalloy said:

if a character takes extra damage from magic-based attacks, a GM can ensure that magic-based opponents appear periodically, while in an online game, the player can simply choose not to accept missions that would pit the character against magic-based opponents; it's much more complicated for an online system to make alterations in the game progress reactively to be responsive, particularly when working with groups.

 

I agree it is more difficult, but it is not impossible. And simply because it is difficult to program correctly, doesn't mean that the rule are being bent unless the programming allow it.

In this example, the game would be programed to send ambushes that the character has weaknesses to. The weakness would probably start as a limited list and expand over-game development.

Also, other groups that are fighting the hero and learn that they have a weakness to something would start adding forces that had those powers either through empowering those within their ranks or calling on other enemy groups to assist them. These would show up in missions that the players pick regardless.

 

When you are with a group, the characters that don't have a weakness to magic (for example) cover those that do and take out those threats.

 

10 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Look at CoH, and the problem, after the introduction of Kheldians, of the 'infectious' Void spawns, where a team with Kheldians would see Voids spawn, and after leaving the team, the other characters would still get void spawns, and they could pass them on to new teammates, until you logged out to reset the flag.

 

I think you only need to break up the team and reform.

I don't ever remember having log out to remove the Kheldian stank from a character.

 

8 hours ago, lemming said:

Knowing the people who were coding the original Champions PC Game, yes, very complex and at least we got a character creator out of it...  iirc, you can get the source code for the newer Hero Designer, I think that's all java.

 

What is this "original" Champions PC game of which you speak? Who was the developer?

 

I think I have the disc somewhere from the one of the pre-Champions Online versions of the Champions RPG. I don't think I ever used it. I think that was just for character creation and didn't go beyond that.

 

8 hours ago, lemming said:

PPUE

 

No idea what that means.

[lemming]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

What is this "original" Champions PC game of which you speak? Who was the developer?

 

I think I have the disc somewhere from the one of the pre-Champions Online versions of the Champions RPG. I don't think I ever used it. I think that was just for character creation and didn't go beyond that.

 

No idea what that means.

The Original Champions PC game was late 80s and the floppy disk with the character creator that came with an edition of the BBB (Perez cover)  It's the only software that came out of it.  The game itself you can find listed as vapor ware.

Development was Hero Games (though I think it was a separate entity and most of the people doing development were ones I knew in college)  Host of reasons it didn't happen.

 

PPUE is Paragons & Protectors, Ultimate Edition.  It's a good TTRPG

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, lemming said:

The Original Champions PC game was late 80s

 

I have the original box set which I bought as as soon as I saw it on the shelf that the local gaming store, and, yeah, that was in 1981.

It wasn't a PC (personal computer) game. It was an old school RPG played with pencil and paper.

The two individual rules supplements which came out separately as well.

 

Up until that point I had been using a self-modified version of the Traveller rules to run a superhero campaign. And since it was based on Traveller, it was in the future ... only five years in the future ...

 

 

 

9 hours ago, lemming said:

the floppy disk with the character creator that came with an edition of the BBB (Perez cover)  It's the only software that came out of it.

 

I have the 4th hardbound of Champions RPG with the George Perez cover. First Printing copy from August 1989.

Maybe the disc is around here somewhere. I don't think I ever bothered putting it into a computer.

 

I thought that the edition/printing that I saw that had a disc said something on the cover about the disc being included, but I can't find image of that.

I know a picked up a copy and looked at it, and the disc was attached inside the front or back cover.

I don't see a place there where a disc would have been attached in the copy that I have.

I'm wondering if they didn't add the disc in another printing of the same edition of the game.

I can't even find anything about the disc online for any more research on it.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, lemming said:

The Original Champions PC game was late 80s and the floppy disk with the character creator that came with an edition of the BBB (Perez cover)  It's the only software that came out of it.  The game itself you can find listed as vapor ware.

The Champions computer game, from the Games That Weren't website.

 

And Hero Games is still selling the Hero Designer program (and the source code).

[Skyhawke]

Champions II: My Eyes Are Up Here Edition

[Herotu]

It's a shame upon the entire comic genre that Statesman still hasn't had a retcon rebirth. 

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I have the original box set which I bought as as soon as I saw it on the shelf that the local gaming store,

 

 

And RuneQuest, too, by the looks of things!

 

... and Pathfinder Shadow In the Sky. Whatever that is.
 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Herotu