Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Shin Magmus]

18 hours ago, UrbanHound said:

 

I can certainly understand this, or at least the primal need to eke out every opportunity to maximize damage with Arsenal. I've made a few attempts at a lower level Stank Arse (Arse/Poison) to see how it performed without the pet to assist with damage and things did not go favorably. I played at 22 on just paper mishes and I typically get a feel for a combo by starting out at a -1/x2-3 and then ramp it up from there based on how a set performs. But with this combo, and particularly without the Tri-Cannon, I did not feel comfortable raising that starting threshold at all. I tried to stick with basic IOs but started to include procs to help ease the pacing somewhat. I guess Electric Control hasn't made a total masochist of me yet.

 

While I still enjoy the overall vibe of the set, and the control tools it has in its toolbox, I agree that damage is sorely needed. However I will leave it to those with a better mind to the overall game and its modes to find out 'where' you reasonably squeeze that in. I want to do more testing to see how to make better use of Smoke Canister and if it can be more helpful. And just another note that, at this low level and with this specific powerset combination, I didn't have a meaningful way to activate Wet if the use of Wet to setup area containment is the intended missing piece to the damage puzzle.

 

I will definitely be encouraging the missus to roll a high damage Blaster or something similar to ultimately roll this on live. Thankfully she's used to that with my various Electric Controllers. 🙂

If the devs don't correct the course of this set, and keep it similar to how it is right now, you're going to want her to pick Water Blast.  Then at least the enemies will always be "Wet".

[Heatstroke]

if Freezing Rain applies a " wet " effect, then shouldnt Sleet also apply a " wet " effect?

 

a form of precipitation consisting of ice pellets, often mixed with rain or snow.

Edited February 7 by Heatstroke

[CherryBunbun]

Can we make it so Fire powers only apply dots when something has the "dry" flag?

[JayboH]

27.7.5847

 

Is it just me or is sound different?  Tri-Cannon sounds totally different to me (quieter) than it did in the last patch unless it is something with my system.

[Captain Powerhouse]

22 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Is it just me or is sound different?  Tri-Cannon sounds totally different to me (quieter) than it did in the last patch unless it is something with my system.

 

Sound was adjusted, should be in the patch notes. Last patch's sound was clipping. 

[Videra]

Okay, real talk. This set has finally broke me. I have been non-stop laughing for like fifteen minutes. You win, PH, Bopper, you've caused me to undergo Jokerification.

BUT! Seeing as you've brought up the internal logic of Oil Slick and Acid not making people wet before, I have to ask you, are the fire extinguishers in this video game foam or water-based? Because it looks a-lot like foam!

[ScarySai]

Power lock-in is going to make it hard to fix this one, if this is all the buffs this thing's getting.

 

Ah well. Let's see if coercive works now, at least.

[LastHumanSoldier]

Devs, I am sympathetic to your plight.

You have opened the door for Semantic nitpick wars.

 

Quote

 

wet /wĕt/
adjective

• Covered or soaked with a liquid, such as water.

 

•  

Shouldn't Poison make people wet?
 Acid Mortar? 

Most of the Poison Set?
Corrosive Vial?
Bile Spray? (why waterspout but not Bile Spray?)

 

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

13 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Bile Spray? (why waterspout but not Bile Spray?)

 

Bile Spray is an acid attack. We specifically mean soaked in water. 

[LastHumanSoldier]

I

8 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Bile Spray is an acid attack. We specifically mean soaked in water. 

 

Bile ranges from 7-8 on the PH scale, trending alkaline
Drinking water ranges from 6.5-8.5.

Just trying to demonstrate the semantics door that's opened here. 

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Power lock-in is going to make it hard to fix this one, if this is all the buffs this thing's getting.

 

Ah well. Let's see if coercive works now, at least.

I will be testing my same character on the Carnie mish again for comparative analysis, but I might drop a power to take and test Tear Gas as well now.  I just can't upload that new stuff immediately cus I have work...

 

I'm excited to at least hopefully see 2 of the powers in this set that didn't even really work in my test maybe start working now.

 

("Wet" is still fundamentally a terrible idea, especially for this powerset, but everyone else can already see that.)

[Frosticus]

Build 4 feedback Dominator:

Tranq: ok, I think its base damage should be higher? It is a 6 second attack so should match levitate/lift no?

 

Sleep Nade: no point in it doing damage anymore. It doesn't proc at all now, so now it is just the worst of both worlds imo. I dunno, build 3 ground patch wasn't disappearing on me upon enemy defeat. I won't miss this power if I can skip it now, whereas build 3 it was a key power imo. 

 

Smoke Can: confuse is working quite well now that enhancements are fixed. I had no issues quickly and consistently holding mag 6 vs lvl 54 target dummy. Didn't test out the -kb aspect.

 

Tear Gas: simultaneously better and worse than volcanic gases. If you are lucky with the domination procs it can stack obscene mag. I hit as high as mag 21 hold vs even con and mag 18 vs lvl 54 dummy. On the other hand sometimes it would drop down to mag 3, or even mag 0 while active. As far as aoe holds go I think it has value because it keeps working for a full 1 minute and can collect new targets, but it isn't as reliable as volcanic gases from what I saw. That said, the patch should make the -dam debuff better in a long fight as it lasts the whole time.

 

Tri-Cannon: the shorter range helps. It will be exposed to more team buffs. It will still miss things like fulcrum (but I guess it is intended to be a ranged pet), but it is now in range for things like arctic fog, etc if that buffer is at mid range. 

 

Overall I think I like this version except sleep nade is not great. Also this set has extremely low damage. At least before you could toss a couple procs in sleep nade in the 20's and have it do as well or better than the comparable aoe immobs from other sets for adding a bit of aoe damage.

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Frosticus

[Shin Magmus]

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Overall I think I like this version except sleep nade is not great. Also this set has extremely low damage. At least before you could toss a couple procs in sleep nade in the 20's and have it do as well or better than the comparable aoe immobs from other sets for adding a bit of aoe damage.

Sleep Grenade didn't work correctly before.  It did disappear for you, it disappeared for all of us.  It disappears in the video of my testing (in Build 3).  A proc nuke is just a band-aid for underperforming powers and sets.  I'd shoot Proc Grenade at a group -> the target died -> the VFX instantly disappeared -> Sleep and Slow canceled.  At least after the fix we have a power that works and does something instead of a button that was, and I'm not sure I can stress this enough, a button that did nothing besides apply the procs then completely disappear.  Unfortunately, now the power doesn't work period: bug reported.

 

 

Edited February 7 by ShinMagmus
Clarified after testing that Sleep Grenade is completely broken

[Vinceq98]

I have a couple videos of a 50 controller running 54/x8 missions with bosses. So far the set is actually really good except for some major bugs that i find annoying but not game breaking

I will upload them as soon as Youtube is finished processing the videos. I wanted to showcase the whole mission isntead of a few clips

 

1) Tranq Dart = Poor mans Levitate. Ok Damage can take alot of procs but the 6 sec recharge hurts its procability. 8/10 used to get set bonuses and damage

2) Cryo Ray = A+ tier hold power. Decently fast activation, Its no Dominate or Blind BUT its accepts alot of procs 10/10 Max DMG + Procs focus

3) Liquid Nitrogen = The sets "carrion creepers" it helps melt minions and lieutenants health. 5 set ragnarok for dmg and set bonus 10/10

4) Cloaking Device = Set mule BUT currently the def is shut off completely in combat. It doesnt suppress properly. 1/10 power only because its for LOTG mule. Need to fix ASAP

5) Smoke Canister = Its Seeds + Flash arrow + KB protection. This is a LOADED power now. 10/10 must take. 6 Slots ez

6) Flash Bang = Another every spawn power. Without "wet" this sets up containment for controllers to wipe out minions + lieutenants. 10/10 power for set bonuses as well. Very fast animation

7) Tear Gas = Its an OK shit button. Kinda needs Smoke Canister first to soak the alpha because it wont HOLD mobs right away. 6/10 just for set mule. 4 slot basilik gaze and forget it

😎 Tri Cannon = What a meh pet. This pet requires you to get close to the mobs or it wont "aggro" and start attacking. Behaves just like devices Gun Drone. 4/10 Its just a slot mule power for my build.

 

The set really thrives and survives in its patches. Much like trick arrow. When mobs start running away things can get dicey if you cant shut them down. Smoke Canister and Liquid Nitrogen effects fade away far too quickly for my liking. It feels like a race to spam powers as a result. 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Vinceq98

[Shin Magmus]

Okay, I was going to Respec my character and test out the changes in Build 4.  Before doing that, I went ahead and checked the info on the powers and tried to use them.  I cannot use Smoke Grenade now... I mean I am literally unable to cast the power in any way.

 

Things I've tried: Zoning, Unslotting everything in the power, re-logging, moving it around in the trays: no fixes.

Things I'm going to try: Respeccing.

 

Check out my recording, it's pretty funny!

 

(I'll crosspost this to bug reports)

[Shin Magmus]

Yeah so I tried playing without Sleep Grenade and... I'm just not going to bother testing Build 4 any further.  Since I'm not allowed to have an Immobilize on Arse/Traps, I was specifically relying on the Slow from Sleep Grenade + the Slow from Caltrops to play at all.  You guys saw how much I needed that in my video.  Last build, Sleep Grenade broke frequently but still helped a bit before it broke.  This build, I'm just down an entire power... so I have to play without any Immobs and also now without any AoE Sleep or AoE Slow from my primary: solely reliant on Caltrops to slow the entire spawn and keep them from running: this isn't playable.

 

I'll plan out my build and how to incorporate Tear Gas into the next iteration but I'm not going to playtest an Immob-less Slow-less Controller who can only reliably prevent a single target at a time from running all over the map.  The irony is that if Sleep Grenade was simply replaced by Wide Area Web Grenade, I'd be able to play right now with no issues and the set would probably be in a pretty good place.

[Videra]

1 minute ago, ShinMagmus said:

Yeah so I tried playing without Sleep Grenade and... I'm just not going to bother testing Build 4 any further.  Since I'm not allowed to have an Immobilize on Arse/Traps, I was specifically relying on the Slow from Sleep Grenade + the Slow from Caltrops to play at all.  You guys saw how much I needed that in my video.  Last build, Sleep Grenade broke frequently but still helped a bit before it broke.  This build, I'm just down an entire power... so I have to play without any Immobs and also now without any AoE Sleep or AoE Slow from my primary: solely reliant on Caltrops to slow the entire spawn and keep them from running: this isn't playable.

 

I'll plan out my build and how to incorporate Tear Gas into the next iteration but I'm not going to playtest an Immob-less Slow-less Controller who can only reliably prevent a single target at a time from running all over the map.  The irony is that if Sleep Grenade was simply replaced by Wide Area Web Grenade, I'd be able to play right now with no issues and the set would probably be in a pretty good place.

 

Once again, I am echoing this point - with one of the set's fundamental powers being completely non-functional at the moment, there's no point in testing it. I'm also going to echo the sentiment that Arsenal Control would actually be pretty good right now if it had an AOE immobilize - even in the form of Wetless patch Liquid Nitrogen. We're never going to win that fight, I understand, but it's getting rather irritating to see that any attempt at feedback to this effect gets deleted.

I don't want a power swap, but the fact you're willing to completely alter the functionality of Tear Gas tells me that you could simply not have the 'wet' tag be a part of Liquid Nitrogen. Please, do it. This set is ALMOST good.

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, Videra said:

This set is ALMOST good.

I saw a lot of overall positive changes to the set to improve aspects of underperforming powers and just fix other ones.  The increased tohit debuff on Smoke Canister doesn't really even need to be tested for us to simply math out its effect (as experienced support players) and how much it will improve the safety of teams.  I agree that it's ALMOST good.  It's just a shame that I'm not allowed to make enemies stay within the patches, and I'm not going to struggle with more un-fun solo testing until at least that one critical bug is fixed.

[Videra]

I'll also pitch this again, if Wet is to stay:

What if Liquid Nitrogen was an Immobilize that also summoned pseudopet tiny ice slicks under enemies hit, like how Bots Rockets summoned Burn Patches? If the target is wet, then the damage is increased or the ice slick is bigger or something.

Edited February 7 by Videra

[Psi-bolt]

53 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

  The irony is that if Sleep Grenade was simply replaced by Wide Area Web Grenade, I'd be able to play right now with no issues and the set would probably be in a pretty good place.

 

There is a WHOLE lot I love in this update.  I also kinda like Arsenal Control.  I'm not the best Controller player so I've left that to the experts.   I just wanted to comment on this point.  When this set was introduced I was literally shocked that it didn't have Wide Area Web Grenade as the animations already exist for rifles and it would make sense with a set with multiple patch based controls.   I haven't really given that feedback before since it's futile at this point. 

 

I do think you'll wind up having to go back and adjust this set later on.  

[Shin Magmus]

37 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

There is a WHOLE lot I love in this update.  I also kinda like Arsenal Control.  I'm not the best Controller player so I've left that to the experts.   I just wanted to comment on this point.  When this set was introduced I was literally shocked that it didn't have Wide Area Web Grenade as the animations already exist for rifles and it would make sense with a set with multiple patch based controls.   I haven't really given that feedback before since it's futile at this point. 

 

I do think you'll wind up having to go back and adjust this set later on.  

If I learned one thing from my life as a whole, but scaled down to just discussing our adventures on this forum over the past month: it's that you shouldn't give up just because something feels futile.  Really small margins are beaten, with changes that have positive effects for many people, just because a handful of people tried their hardest anyways even when something seemed futile.  It's the principle of the thing.

[arcane]

I think we should just ditch the wet mechanic and stick with the straight Ice Slick power. It’s opened up a really stupid can of worms about what constitutes wetness when the devs knew all along the set didn’t have to have an immobilize.

[Frosticus]

9 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

Sleep Grenade didn't work correctly before.  It did disappear for you, it disappeared for all of us.  It disappears in the video of my testing (in Build 3).  A proc nuke is just a band-aid for underperforming powers and sets.  I'd shoot Proc Grenade at a group -> the target died -> the VFX instantly disappeared -> Sleep and Slow canceled.  At least after the fix we have a power that works and does something instead of a button that was, and I'm not sure I can stress this enough, a button that did nothing besides apply the procs then completely disappear.  Unfortunately, now the power doesn't work period: bug reported.

 

 

You can see in the video I uploaded that it persists after all targets were killed off. I also went and specifically tried it after you guys were complaining and it would stay for me. 

Perhaps we were testing it under different parameters? Like I wasn't insta gibbing my target.

 

I won't get into an argument about proc-ability. All the other control sets can (and do) slot them if they want a more damage focused approach. I prefer the option rather than having it coded into obscurity. Right now Arsenal control is by far the lowest damage control set, but it does offer oodles of control. 

 

Edit: I've been testing on a dom and you a troller. As far as I can tell they are using their own unique summons, so that might be a source of discrepancy as well.

Edited February 7 by Frosticus

[ScarySai]

@Vinceq98 Storm and trick arrow do a very good job with covering for arsenal's glaring weaknesses.

[Frosticus]

Isn't the blaster version of Tactical arrow > glue arrow a targeted aoe that summons a persistent patch?

afaik that implementation works for them without issue.