Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Vinceq98]

I think they need to ditch the wet status. Even with storm summoning activating the root, you cannot enhance it and it doesnt reapply like a pseudo pet. I cannot immobilize bosses with Liquid Nitrogen and Freezing Rain together. It is a one and done check. It is there to just bloat the powers budget without much effect. Setting up containment is easy with Smoke Canister + Flash Bang. It feels instant with how fast the 2 powers activate.

 

The set thrives on being in melee range. While you can certainly hover blast like i do, the pet stays so far back that if you were to max range it would just stay 5-10 meters behind you always. I wish it were given a shorter range attack thus forcing it to be in melee most of the time. Its actually a potent tank and if it were to draw the aggro of bosses away from you it would be a 10/10 pet for me.

 

Playing on a Dominator feels like the set was designed for them. The CCs have very little damage and you can ditch sleep grenade for more powers from your assault power set. Liquid nitrogen on a dominator doesnt do containment damage and thus is just there for the slow and KD effect. 

 

Overall im Happy with the powerset. Its unfortunate that you are pigeonholed into certain secondaries but that is what we are dealt with. Im actually tired of Storm Summoning now but its hard to deny that this combo was what the devs wanted us to play. The playstyle is very much summon pseudo pet or ground aoe and then spam your Single Target Hold + Single Target Sleep and or P2W Attacks until victory.

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

I think they need to ditch the wet status. Even with storm summoning activating the root, you cannot enhance it and it doesnt reapply like a pseudo pet. I cannot immobilize bosses with Liquid Nitrogen and Freezing Rain together. It is a one and done check. It is there to just bloat the powers budget without much effect. Setting up containment is easy with Smoke Canister + Flash Bang. It feels instant with how fast the 2 powers activate.

 

Confuse does not now, and never has, set up Containment.  The check is for Immob, Hold, Sleep, Stun.  So without an Immob, the 2 powers in your Arsenal (I'm funny) that apply reliable AoE Containment, which is not instantly broken on damage, are the 90s CD Stun and the 240s CD Hold Patch: that's it.

[Vinceq98]

I know confuse doesnt set up containment. But Flash bang is does. Liquid Nitrogen has a base -90% slow on it. One slot or another power with a slow like Sleet, Freezing Rain, Times Juncture, or even Ice Storm can floor a mobs run speed. Im actually going to go back on my previous criticism of the set and say that the Immob is not needed. Scrap this Wet Debuff and chance to Immob on liquid nitrogen and just buff the Pet. Bosses are the only mobs left running around out of control. But spamming Cryo Ray + Tranq Dart offers containment and dmg. I dont even target minions or lieutenants, Liquid Nitrogen at max Dmg does 24.74 dmg a tick and it can do containment damage. Thats Hot Feet level of damage. My videos show that by the time im cycling my powers I just spam Hold + Sleep on bosses over and over again. 

 

This set feels good when played as a Dominator. I can easily run into the center of a pack and drop Smoke Canister on my way in. My next 2 powers in sequence are Flash Bang for the Stun and then Liquid Nitrogen to keep them snared. I actually prefer them not immob so they can run closer to my Dominator as he pelts them with PBAOE and TAOEs from his epic pool. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

FWIW I (also) didn't miss an AOE immobilize power at all when testing arsenal control on a dominator. 

[Marshal_General]

Does anyone else have this happen? In the character creator, under customizing the power sets, when I select the tri-gun and then select the secondary set, I hear the sound of the tri-gun firing? This is with a dominator with the arsenal secondary.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Post-patch fix, no new patch note post but here are the changes.

 

2/7 fixes and changes:

• Fixed a bug where Controller version of Smoke Grenade was not usable
• Fixed a bug with the accuracy check and chance in Tear Gas
• Removed Liquid Nitrogen's conditional immobilize

[FupDup]

If having some form of immobilize is absolutely non-negotiable for whatever silly reason, maybe Glue Grenade could fill in (replacing the cloak)? It would add another slow to stack with Liquid Nitro and it fits the "riot control" theme perfectly since PPD Equalizers already use it against the player all the time. 

[Thraxen]

15 minutes ago, FupDup said:

If having some form of immobilize is absolutely non-negotiable for whatever silly reason, maybe Glue Grenade could fill in (replacing the cloak)? It would add another slow to stack with Liquid Nitro and it fits the "riot control" theme perfectly since PPD Equalizers already use it against the player all the time. 

I love glue arrow and would fit as well. I’m gonna play at least the primary regardless, but even as a lotg mule I don’t want the cloak. Might be cool for a predator homage though. 

[Frosticus]

3 minutes ago, Thraxen said:

Might be cool for a predator homage though. 

Yep, it's one of the only ways a weapon set is of interest to me. 

 

Imo I'll echo some other recent posts. This set doesn't need an aoe immob. The arse/storm video put up early showed that pretty well imo. 

[Mythcreatio]

Probably way out of left field here lol but..

 

I would like to see Tear Gas with a nice -Res added to it. For what it actually does to someone IRL, I believe it would truly live up to the "ultimate crowd control tool" saying with that added!😁

•   Tear Gas  Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold, -DMG
  • The Tear Gas canister is the ultimate crowd control tool, it will make enemies choke and unable to take any action as well as debuffing their damage output.

 

Adding more +Def(ALL) to Cloaking Device. Something that makes it more of a "I should definitely invest slots into this" instead of the usual "alright let's make sure I have the fighting pool" If that makes sense?

- I feel this could maybe open up more build diversity, at least a little bit. 

•   Cloaking Device  Toggle: Self Stealth, +DEF(All)

  • This Cloaking Device is the ultimate in infiltration technology. It uses an LCD body coating to become all but impossible to detect. While concealed you can only be seen at very close range. If you attack while concealed, you will be discovered. Even if discovered, you are hard to see but will retain some of your Defense bonus to all attacks.

 

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. LOL

[Shin Magmus]

Well tonight after work I'll actually get to do some testing again, noice.

 

About that Defense comment... They're probably not going to bump up Def more in Cloaking Device because it provides a lot of Def already by self Stealth power standards.  Remember that the best self Stealth in any armorset (besides Hide on Stalkers) on the tankiest AT in the game: Shadow Cloak on a Tanker, provides 5% Def to all base.  That value is implicitly higher than what Cloaking Device "should" be allowed to have.  These toggles are still barely worth enhancing even at the values they currently have: I put a 2nd slot in Cloaking Device for a Lv50+5 LotG Def/End.

[Chronocrator]

7 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

FWIW I (also) didn't miss an AOE immobilize power at all when testing arsenal control on a dominator. 

 

For the latest build, I don't either! I'm actually having a lot of fun with the set as-is. The set has enough in its kit now to justify lacking an AoE Immobilize, in my view.

 

 

[Frosticus]

Dom

 

Tear Gas:

is no longer stacking to crazy mag. That said it seemed to spend most of its time at mag 3 as it seems to tick very slow, so odds weren't in my favor of triggering domination. 

 

Once it hits mag 6 it seemed to hold it pretty well vs lvl 54s. 

 

Sleep Nade:

I dunno but I can safely (and slowly, unless the mobs have good aoe) clear entire rooms from the next room over with smoke and sleep nade. That's my pitch to return sleep nade to being a targeted aoe. Risk vs reward is potentially skewed. Otherwise I'll just use it to soften up tough spawns I guess.

*dom version worked fine in build 3.

[Shin Magmus]

If Tear Gas is hovering around Mag 3 for you, that's workable for Controllers because they'll use the same builds they currently use with Volcanic Gasses.

 

Controllers run into melee then combo the power with either: Choking Cloud, Entangling Aura, Poison Trap, or The Cooler Poison Trap.  This results in overrall non-stop Mag 4+ Hold on all enemies in the area, and it's the Crux of how my Earth/Nature Controller build works. 

[Bionic_Flea]

My one remaining request for this set is to add some -fly to Sleep or Flash Bang Grenades.  With all of these patches, that cannot be targeted in the air to flying targets, not having a way to get flying enemies on to the ground and into the patches seems to be a glaring and frustrating hole.  I'm thinking about Rularuu Watchers, Flying Cabal, Sky Raiders in TV as just a few problematic groups.

 

Corrected to just Flash Bang, because Sleep is a location patch too.

Edited February 9 by Bionic_Flea

[Frosticus]

7 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

If Tear Gas is hovering around Mag 3 for you, that's workable for Controllers because they'll use the same builds they currently use with Volcanic Gasses.

 

Controllers run into melee then combo the power with either: Choking Cloud, Entangling Aura, Poison Trap, or The Cooler Poison Trap.  This results in overrall non-stop Mag 4+ Hold on all enemies in the area, and it's the Crux of how my Earth/Nature Controller build works. 

 

VG consistently ramps up to mag 9 and holds it on doms and trollers (same psuedopet) vs lvl 54s. 

I put a vid of VG up earlier in the thread.

 

IMO for trollers Tear Gas is (currently) 2nd place. Well behind VG, but in the same range as shadowfield depending on whether you want the -dam debuff or the -tohit debuff for your build/team. So pretty attractive.

 

For doms, I dunno. A lot of players want the aoe hold to function as an emergency shut down of a spawn, providing upfront increased mag. Tear Gas definitely isn't that. It is more on the attrition side of things like VG, but nowhere near as powerful of course. Layered with your other controls it certainly makes the fight easier. For doms I personally skip the aoe holds on my builds except earth, so I'm on the fence about tear gas right now.

[Frosticus]

All else aside, I'm still concerned about the base acc of all these pseudo pets.

 

It takes a lot of conscious slotting effort to get them up to 95% tohit chance vs lvl 54s (+3) and is nearly impossible to do vs +4s without def debuffs in play

 

They all need a bump up to ~1.2 base acc.

 

Edit: with a full purple set and vigor alpha they end up at ~92% chance to hit the lvl 54 dummy. That is an unrealistic amount of "slotted" acc for most builds, especially in the 30s and 40s where you actually fight +4s on teams. Aim, tactics, Global acc, all have no Impact. So you require def debuffs.

Edited February 8 by Frosticus

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

My one remaining request for this set is to add some -fly to Sleep or Flash Bang Grenades.  With all of these patches, that cannot be targeted in the air to flying targets, not having a way to get flying enemies on to the ground and into the patches seems to be a glaring and frustrating hole.  I'm thinking about Rularuu Watchers, Flying Cabal, Sky Raiders in TV as just a few problematic groups.

 

That would usually happen automatically as a side-effect of the AoE Immobilize you cast right after your Opener.  It's just such an automatic part of most Control sets to have -fly and tie it to both Immob powers, that is is glaringly obvious when that effect is taken away.

 

Anyway, here's my respecced build and the run on the same Carnie mission at +4/x8.  Even with an additional Arse Control power taken, more Slow-enhancement into Sleep Grenade, and more finesse with where and how I can spam Sleep Grenade now... enemies run from me so fucking much.  I open with Flashbang or Smoke Canister or one of these powers that are clearly intended to be Openers, then since I have no Immobilize I just immediately use Sleep Grenade (+Slow slots) and Caltrops (+Slow slots) together and hope that most of the enemies won't be able to run away.  It's only moderately effective and not terribly enjoyable.

 

At least the main CCs do disable slightly better now, and Tear Gas + Poison Trap at least does what I expect it to consistently.

Edited February 8 by ShinMagmus
Added Video of latest build

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The most natural and believable place to add -fly might be the single target hold.

Ice is water and water is heavy. Add enough ice to prevent somebody from moving, factor in all the added weight, and it would tend to make sense that frozen flying things end up dropping out of the sky. 

Edit: Gravity control already has -fly in the single target hold. So, it wouldn't be breaking entirely new ground for arsenal control to also have -fly in a single target hold. 

Edited February 8 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Shin Magmus]

52 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

The most natural and believable place to add -fly might be the single target hold.

Ice is water and water is heavy. Add enough ice to prevent somebody from moving, factor in all the added weight, and it would tend to make sense that frozen flying things end up dropping out of the sky. 

I think that's workable, but the idea of Flashbang doing it has some believable merit too and would give an AoE source of -fly.  It's not unreasonable for an endgame build to use a 90s base CD power effectively every fight, so this would help vs groups of fliers.  Getting hit by a Flashbang disorients you because of damage to your inner ear, which affects balance and therefore flight.  The light blinding you would also make it impossible to see the horizon to maintain steady flight.

[Videra]

So, while the videos are uploading, I wanted to say that I just took the set through 4/8 Carnies, Nemesis, and CoT with traps. I'm planning on doing Arachnos either later tonight or tomorrow.

My criticisms have not changed, though I do agree that the buffs given in this last build have by and large been good. The things I most often found myself thinking while playing this set - not optimally, mind, but against some of the harder enemy groups regardless - were 'Why are you standing there?', and 'Welp, they got out of my patches.' There is a single tool which could resolve this problem elegantly.

I have asked, multiple times, and I am going to keep repeating myself. Give your set based on FOUR ground patches an AOE immobilize. It just needs that little extra tool - it won't be cookie cutter, you've given it its own identity as the patch set, it feels different. We don't need cloaking device, by example, I'd even still take Liquid Nitrogen as an AOE immobilize patch.

To quote Shin;
 

Kill Cloaking Device for Wide Area Web Grenade that slows more -rech, -speed, does -fly, and deals no dmg (to not break sleep): set's done. Instant send.

Edited February 8 by Videra

[Vinceq98]

I think they need to buff Liquid Nitrogen to last longer. It expires way to quickly. In my videos you can see that Im just cycling powers quickly because I feel like its a countdown before the mobs eventually get out of my kill zone, IE my control patches. Liquid Nitrogen feels better at 45 sec duration. Mobs feel out of control when outside your patches and have to be individually held or slept with your power. Liquid Nitrogen helps keep mobs inside your patches allowing you to focus on damage more. Also Smoke Canister could benefit from having a ground patch graphic so I know I dont drop another one too soon in the same area. 

 

If developer time is being is short because of their schedule then I say send this patch through but revisit it on the next update. Storm Blast got some love afterwards, This set needs one more quality pass to be perfect. 

Edited February 8 by Vinceq98

[Marshal_General]

For Cloaking Device, should the No Fade option kind of mean no fade as in I can still see my character?

 

I spent a lot of time and influence in Icon getting the right look after all.

[Frosticus]

38 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

For Cloaking Device, should the No Fade option kind of mean no fade as in I can still see my character?

 

I spent a lot of time and influence in Icon getting the right look after all.

It means when you attack/get attacked you will see your character clearly. 

 

With fade you are always a bit translucent.

[Psi-bolt]

19 hours ago, Thraxen said:

I love glue arrow and would fit as well. I’m gonna play at least the primary regardless, but even as a lotg mule I don’t want the cloak. Might be cool for a predator homage though. 

 

Please leave the Superior Invis clone alone.  I really like that power's utility.